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Why You Can Never Trust the French

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2008 07:46 am
Given that you seemed to think that it was a refutation of the charge that the Reagan administration was complicit in Hussein's chemical attacks, you must not have read and understood what you posted.

Therefore, it was necessary to point it out to you again. Loser.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2008 08:08 am
I've pointed out the lack of reading comprehension on A2K in the past. I guess you forgot, or maybe you just didn't understand what I was saying.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2008 11:21 am
Has anyone heard of the "good cop/bad cop routine"?

I tend to believe France is an ally to the U.S. However, in keeping with their international persona, where they have always tried to be the Europeans that treat the non-Europeans with dignity and respect, they might just be continuing in that role here?

The point is, in my opinion, they might be getting information that otherwise no one in the international theatre would have.

I believe a lot of the supposed anti-French sentiment in the U.S. is just to give the impression that France is not a close ally to the U.S.

Does anyone remember that before Israel bought U.S. fighter planes they were flying French Mirages?
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2008 11:42 am
normally this is a thread i would like to particpate in. but the way you, cjhsa and setanta, communicate with each other is a huge turn off. I don't care one iota "who started it" or what you think of each other. as far as i'm concerned, you're both breaking the TOS with your name calling and insults. While factually I would agree with Setanta, the style of posting is something i can't sign under.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2008 11:47 am
dagmaraka wrote:
normally this is a thread i would like to particpate in. but the way you, cjhsa and setanta, communicate with each other is a huge turn off. I don't care one iota "who started it" or what you think of each other. as far as i'm concerned, you're both breaking the TOS with your name calling and insults. While factually I would agree with Setanta, the style of posting is something i can't sign under.


I, Foofie, named called and insulted anyone? Au contraire!
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2008 12:35 pm
dagmaraka wrote:
...but the way you, cjhsa and setanta, communicate with each other ....
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2008 12:38 pm
I'm too black for Set. It throws him off.

BTW I have a bunch of French rifles for sale. Never fired, dropped once or twice.
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2008 12:57 pm
suit yourself then.

i'm out.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 May, 2008 08:55 am
Foofie wrote:
[.....]
Does anyone remember that before Israel bought U.S. fighter planes they were flying French Mirages?


The blueprints of that aircraft were stolen by the Israelis from Switzerland.

It was, technically, the Swiss version of the Mirage. Nobody here said that Israel only steals from the U.S., if that's what you're driving at.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 May, 2008 09:31 am
dagmaraka wrote:
....... I don't care one iota "who started it" ......... While factually I would agree with Setanta, the style of posting is something i can't sign under.


Setanta's "style of posting" at least has the merit of distinguishing nuances between "iota" and "whit". Not that I hope to compete in that literary class - I just recognize it when I see it.

CJ - if your rifles were those issued to French colonial troops, it's very likely they were never fired because the enemy was close enough to use the attached bayonet; and they wouldn't have been dropped if the soldier holding them was still living. If we had listened to them after Dien Bien Phu we would have avoided our own debacle over there.

Btw, I also support the idea of listening to the Brits who occupied Iraq almost a century before us and decided that the Iraqis are "an ungrateful nation", a view which increasingly strikes me as prophetic.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 May, 2008 10:34 am
High Seas wrote:
Foofie wrote:
[.....]
Does anyone remember that before Israel bought U.S. fighter planes they were flying French Mirages?


The blueprints of that aircraft were stolen by the Israelis from Switzerland.

It was, technically, the Swiss version of the Mirage. Nobody here said that Israel only steals from the U.S., if that's what you're driving at.


I never heard the above. I thought the jets were purchased from France. I believe I read that in some newspaper when they got them?

And, you needn't guess at what I may be "driving" at. Don't empower me with the intelligence to drive at anything. I only say literal thoughts.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 May, 2008 12:43 pm
Foofie wrote:
High Seas wrote:
Foofie wrote:
[.....]
Does anyone remember that before Israel bought U.S. fighter planes they were flying French Mirages?


The blueprints of that aircraft were stolen by the Israelis from Switzerland.

It was, technically, the Swiss version of the Mirage. Nobody here said that Israel only steals from the U.S., if that's what you're driving at.


I never heard the above. I thought the jets were purchased from France. I believe I read that in some newspaper when they got them?

........


Ah, another one who refuses to look up sources! Here's Mrs. Pollard speaking on that very subject:

Quote:
Are all who risk their lives for the State of Israel to be treated with the same disdain and disposability with which Israel treated Alfred Frauenknecht? In the late 1960's, Frauenknecht, a Jewish Swiss engineer, stole the blueprints and the specifications for the precise machine tools used in the French-Swiss Mirage Jet Fighter Plane, and gave them to Israel. The Jewish State used the blueprints to build the Kfir fighter plane. When Frauenknecht was caught, Israel disowned him and abandoned him to his fate. [....]Years later, when Jonathan Pollard was arrested, Frauenknecht's widow wrote to him

http://web.israelinsider.com/views/4763.htm
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 May, 2008 06:26 pm
The Israelis have long bought foreign military equipment, and then modified and copied it to manufacture their own equipment. They bought the British Conqueror, Chieftain and Centurion main battle tanks (which used American designed guns and ordnance), but they modified them for the desert environment, and then they copied them to build their own main battle tanks, the Merkava series (and they worked closely with the British who were developing their Chieftain at the time).

They were flying F16s during operation Litani at the time of the Lebanese civil war. They of course modified them for the desert environment, but i was amused and impressed by one of their modifications. They had a Rube Goldberg, hardware store solution for dealing with the primitive hand-held, heat-seeking SAMs which were being used against them when they flew over Beirut. They mounted a reel with magnesium ribbon in the tail assembly, and when activated, it cut off strips of magnesium and chucked it out the ass end behind the after-burner. Of course, the magnesium immediately burned up with a big flare and an intense heat signature. I still recall see news footage of the Israeli F16s flying over Beirut with the little bright flashes trailing along behind them--a kind of home-made flare dispenser.

I have always admired their perspicacity in solving small problems, and have equally been bewildered that they can be so clever in small matters, and pursue such bloody stupid basic policies when it comes to the big issues that really matter.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 May, 2008 06:31 pm
They also installed rear view mirrors in the cockpits as a quick way to see the backwithout having to crane around .

Also , a rabbi fixed the problem of the F-16 wings detaching at high G turns. His solution was quite simple. He suggested that they put perforations where the wings were separating.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 May, 2008 08:28 pm
High Seas wrote:
Foofie wrote:
High Seas wrote:
Foofie wrote:
[.....]
Does anyone remember that before Israel bought U.S. fighter planes they were flying French Mirages?


The blueprints of that aircraft were stolen by the Israelis from Switzerland.

It was, technically, the Swiss version of the Mirage. Nobody here said that Israel only steals from the U.S., if that's what you're driving at.


I never heard the above. I thought the jets were purchased from France. I believe I read that in some newspaper when they got them?

........


Ah, another one who refuses to look up sources! Here's Mrs. Pollard speaking on that very subject:

Quote:
Are all who risk their lives for the State of Israel to be treated with the same disdain and disposability with which Israel treated Alfred Frauenknecht? In the late 1960's, Frauenknecht, a Jewish Swiss engineer, stole the blueprints and the specifications for the precise machine tools used in the French-Swiss Mirage Jet Fighter Plane, and gave them to Israel. The Jewish State used the blueprints to build the Kfir fighter plane. When Frauenknecht was caught, Israel disowned him and abandoned him to his fate. [....]Years later, when Jonathan Pollard was arrested, Frauenknecht's widow wrote to him

http://web.israelinsider.com/views/4763.htm


This wikipedia article,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAI_Kfir
seems to say that Israel had actual Mirages prior to the Kfir. My only point was that France allowed Israel to buy Mirage jets before the Kfir was developed. All the intrigue you reference has nothing to do with my one point.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 May, 2008 08:38 pm
Setanta wrote:


I have always admired their perspicacity in solving small problems, and have equally been bewildered that they can be so clever in small matters, and pursue such bloody stupid basic policies when it comes to the big issues that really matter.


I had to look up the meaning of "perspicacity." In my opinion, you used a big five dollar word, where "mentally perceptive" would have saved me a trip to the big dictionary.

Your judgement of Israel's policies as "bloody stupid" reflects your ability to empathize with a nation that is only 60 years old, and was born out of the Final Solution? Perhaps, the cognitive dissonance you feel towards Israel's thinking abilities in different arenas has to do with the fact that as Jews, there is a very long history of talent in the applied physical sciences; not so with managing a nation - a two thousand year hiatus. Remember that Diaspora with the Romans, circa 60 AD, or thereabouts.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 May, 2008 07:48 am
Foofie wrote:
I had to look up the meaning of "perspicacity." In my opinion, you used a big five dollar word, where "mentally perceptive" would have saved me a trip to the big dictionary.


The limits of your vocabulary are certainly no fault of mine, and of no interest to me. The suggestion that "mentally perceptive" is a superior way of saying perspicacity, however, is rather amusing--you would prefer to substitute two words for one, and six syllables for five. Suit yourself.

Quote:
Your judgement of Israel's policies as "bloody stupid" reflects your ability to empathize with a nation that is only 60 years old, and was born out of the Final Solution? Perhaps, the cognitive dissonance you feel towards Israel's thinking abilities in different arenas has to do with the fact that as Jews, there is a very long history of talent in the applied physical sciences; not so with managing a nation - a two thousand year hiatus. Remember that Diaspora with the Romans, circa 60 AD, or thereabouts.


The nation of Israel was not remotely "born out of the Final Solution." Zionists began to immigrate in earnest in Palestine from 1882 onward, although the Jewish population of Palestine had tripled between 1800 and 1880 through a trickle of immigration. About 30,000 Jews arrived in Palestine between 1882 and 1900, more than doubling the Jewish population of Palestine. If anything were "born out of the Final Solution," it was the leverage which Zionists needed to obtain recognition for a state of Israel.

I suffer no cognitive dissonance with regard to the policies of Israel. I suspect that you don't really know what cognitive dissonance means--your further remarks suggest this. Cognitive dissonance is the feeling one has when they realize that something which they have believed to be true is not in fact true; alternatively, it is used to describe the state of believing in two disparate, conflicting views at the same time. Nothing you have written convinces me that my remark is not true. There is no inherent conflict in believing that Israel, or any one or any group, may be adept at solving small problems, and maladroit at solving large problems.

As for your references to empathy, i have none for the Israeli polity, for however much i may deplore the suffering of Israelis. I also deplore the suffering of the Palestinians. United Nations General Assembly 181, passed at the end of November, 1947, outlined the terms for the creation of a state of Israel. Among a great many other things, it called for a customs and economic union of an Israeli state and an Arab state within Palestine, for the compensation of anyone removed from their traditional lands and for the recognition of traditional property claims. The state of Israel has ignored or violated all the engagements embodied in G.A. Resolution 181 with regard to the Arab population of Palestine. In 1956, they attempted to take the Sinai Peninsula from Egypt, but were warned off by Eisenhower. In 1967, they did take the Sinai, as well as the Golan Heights and the west bank of the Jordan River. They have repeatedly occupied southern Lebanon, and have supported the right-wing Christian militias of the Maronites, most notoriously in the Shabra and Shatila Palestinian refugee camp massacres.

The Israeli government has made the bed in which the people of Israel have been obliged to lie. Israeli government policies for 60 years have assured nearly constant warfare and the continuous threat of terrorist attack. I consider those policies to be gross stupidity, verging on the criminal. You are free not to agree, but that does not make me cognitively dissonant.
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 May, 2008 08:50 am
High Seas wrote:
dagmaraka wrote:
....... I don't care one iota "who started it" ......... While factually I would agree with Setanta, the style of posting is something i can't sign under.


Setanta's "style of posting" at least has the merit of distinguishing nuances between "iota" and "whit". Not that I hope to compete in that literary class - I just recognize it when I see it.


Very well, High Seas....Now try posting in a foreign language. Because English is a foreign language for me, you know.
0 Replies
 
gustavratzenhofer
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 May, 2008 08:53 am
And you speak it well, dag.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 May, 2008 09:36 am
Setanta wrote:
There is no inherent conflict in believing that Israel, or any one or any group, may be adept at solving small problems, and maladroit at solving large problems.



But, quoting you, "I have always admired their perspicacity in solving small problems, and have equally been bewildered that they can be so clever in small matters, and pursue such bloody stupid basic policies when it comes to the big issues that really matter."

Doesn't "bewilderment" represent some level of mental conflict? Perhaps, we think differently in the English language. A regional difference, perhaps?

You seem to leave out that the wars fought were defensive for Israel? Should they have lost the wars, and then there'd be no Israel? Wasn't that the Arab goal for each war, 1948 and onwards?
0 Replies
 
 

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