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Why You Can Never Trust the French

 
 
cjhsa
 
Reply Mon 19 May, 2008 08:38 am
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/20/world/europe/20france.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

PARIS ?- France confirmed on Monday that it has had contacts with the leaders of Hamas for several months to try to better understand the positions of the radical Islamic group that is running Gaza.

Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner emphasized that there were no negotiations with Hamas, labeled a terrorist group by both the United States and the European Union.

"These are not relations, they are contacts," Mr. Kouchner said on Europe1 radio. "We are not the only ones to have them," he said. "We must be able to talk if we want to play a role."

Mr. Kouchner confirmed a report in the daily Le Figaro, quoting a retired French diplomat and former ambassador to Iraq, Yves Aubin de La Messuzière, saying that he had met a month ago in Gaza with Ismail Haniyeh, the Hamas prime minister, and Mahmoud Zahar, among the most important Hamas leaders in the Palestinian territories.

The confirmation of contacts will anger the United States and Israel just days before Mr. Kouchner makes a visit to to the region which will includeBethlehem, in the West Bank. It will also displease the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas of Fatah, who has said that he will not talk to Hamas, which he accuses of carrying out a bloody coup in Gaza last June.

In Jerusalem, Arye Mekel, a spokesman for the foreign ministry, said his government had already raised the issue of this meeting "at the highest levels" of the French government and "received assurances that there is no change in the position of France vis-a-vis Hamas, and that it continues to adhere to the three conditions of the Quartet, namely, if Hamas wants to be acceptable as a partner, it must recognize the existence of Israel, stop terror, and accept all agreements signed in the past between Israel and the Palestinians."

Israeli officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, said that the French meeting was part of a general softening in the European position toward Hamas. Various European officials, they said, feel uneasy about the European position because they are concerned that it is unrealistic and would like to formulate a new one. This meeting, they said, is part of those efforts.

Besides classifying Hamas as a terrorist organization which opposes Israel's right to exist, the administration of President George W. Bush believes that contacts with Hamas undermine Mr. Abbas and his appointed prime minister, Salam Fayyad, who favor negotiations for a permanent two-state solution between Israel and Palestine.

According to the account of Mr. Aubin de La Messuzière, however, his Hamas interlocutors told him nothing that they have not repeatedly stated in public. "They assured me that they were ready to accept a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders, which amounts to an indirect recognition of Israel," he said.

Hamas, however, has always said that such a Palestinian state could be established only if Israel pulled back from all land occupied in 1967, which Israel is not prepared to do. Hamas would not recognize the state of Israel in perpetuity - only live side by side with it for a temporary period, 10 to 15 years, in a "hudna," or truce.

Mr. Aubin de La Messuzière also said: "They said they were ready to stop suicide attacks and what surprised me is that the Islamist leaders recognize the legitimacy of Mahmoud Abbas."

His comments could appear naïve, because Hamas has always recognized the legitimacy of Mr. Abbas as the elected president of the Palestinian Authority and also his right, as head of the Palestine Liberation Organization, to negotiate on behalf of the Palestinians. Hamas has also said that it believes such talks are useless.

Hamas has also had a largely effective ban on suicide bombings inside the post-1967 Israeli borders since August 2004, with a few incidents carried out by local cells. Hamas has been talking to the Egyptians, who have been trying to mediate a cease-fire in Gaza between Israel and Hamas for months to end rocket attacks on Israel, Israeli attacks and targeted killings in Gaza, and a release of prisoners, including Gilad Shalit, a young Israeli corporal captured in Israel and brought to Gaza in a Hamas-led operation on June 25, 2006.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy, considered a supporter of Israel, will make an official visit there in June and will spend "several hours" in the Palestinian territories but will not talk to Hamas representatives, Mr. Kouchner said.

The European Union said it will continue to maintain its ban on formal contacts with Hamas.

Mr. Kouchner said he found Hamas was "more flexible than before" but still unwilling to recognize the state of Israel. He did not elaborate.

Hamas leaders like Mr. Haniyeh and his adviser, Ahmed Youssef, have regularly said that they would like to have good relations with West European countries, whom they regard as more sympathetic to their positions than Washington. Their implicit desire is to split the United States and Europeans on the issue.

French officials, frustrated by the lack of progress between Mr. Abbas and Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, have been raising the possibility of talks with Hamas or a new unity government between Fatah and Hamas ?- something that Israel, Mr. Abbas and the United States have firmly opposed.

A new American president may have other views, but so far, all three main American presidential candidates have said that they will continue the Bush administration's ban on discussions with Hamas until the group meets previously agreed upon criteria: recognition of the right of Israel to exist, acceptance of previous Palestinian-Israeli agreements and an end to violence. That stand has been agreed upon by Israel and the so-called quartet for Middle East peace, consisting of the United States, the European Union, Russia and the United Nations.

Hamas has said it cannot agree to all three conditions. And clearly the joint Western stand is fraying.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 2 • Views: 12,094 • Replies: 53
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High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 May, 2008 11:23 am
Sorry CJ but that's nothing to do with trusting the French (you heard of General Lafayette, btw?!). Your confusion is due to the fact you read the NYT.

Communist newspapers - what next?
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 May, 2008 11:26 am
I read the NY Times for laughs.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 May, 2008 11:28 am
Given that the United States is not at war with Hamas, and that Hamas is the elected representative of the Palestinian people, one wonders how this would be evidence that the French are untrustworthy.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 May, 2008 11:29 am
Negotiating with terrorists Set? You an Obaman?
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 May, 2008 11:34 am
I wish someone would explain to me why, if the enemy is Al Qaeda, we first invade Iraq (no connection whatsoever with AQ) and now actually contemplate an attack on Iran (actively opposed to AQ).

Meanwhile plenty of arrests of folks spying for Israel but not a single - that means ZERO - arrest of anyone alleged to be spying for Iraq, or Iran, or Hamas.

If we can't even decide WHO IS the ENEMY then we don't have a prayer, imho.

And no, the enemy is not France; they're an ally. Israel is not an ally and never will be - no US president would sign such a treaty and no US Senate would ratify it.

Please get a grip CJ. It's not Obamamania, it's common sense.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 May, 2008 11:54 am
Well, HoT High Seas has dealt with that succinctly . . . although i suspect it won't sink in.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 May, 2008 07:54 pm
How does this, in any way, provide any evidence of France not being able to be trusted?

High Seas has hit the mark on this one. Very well put.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 May, 2008 09:15 pm
To anyone with more brains than an average beagle, this is evidence the French cannot be trusted.

Nothing new.

They sold tons of war gear to Saddam while the embargo was in place as well. We should have taken out Paris in addition to Baghdad.
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 May, 2008 09:23 pm
Sure as hell glad they didn't get involved in our fight for independence from the British!
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2008 05:03 am
cjhsa wrote:
To anyone with more brains than an average beagle, this is evidence the French cannot be trusted.

Nothing new.

They sold tons of war gear to Saddam while the embargo was in place as well. We should have taken out Paris in addition to Baghdad.


Do i need to post the picture of Rummy shaking Hussein's hand with a sh*t-eatin' grin on his face in Baghdad, preparatory to selling him the poison gas he would use on his own people? Maybe you should nuke Orange County, California, too, and hunt down and kill all the Reaganites.

Loser.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2008 06:20 am
Right.... loser.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2008 06:39 am
Funny how the left wing cannot get facts straight. If you believed Set, Rumsfeld was actually over there helping run the mustard gas generator.


The know-how and material for developing CW were obtained by Saddam's regime from foreign firms.[12] By far, the largest suppliers of precursors for chemical weapons production were in Singapore (4,515 tons), the Netherlands (4,261 tons), Egypt (2,400 tons), India (2,343 tons), and West Germany (1,027 tons). One Indian company, Exomet Plastics (now part of EPC Industrie Ltd.) sent 2,292 tons of precursor chemicals to Iraq. The Kim Al-Khaleej firm, located in Singapore and affiliated to United Arab Emirates, supplied more than 4,500 tons of VX, sarin, and mustard gas precursors and production equipment to Iraq.[13]

The provision of chemical precursors from United States companies to Iraq was enabled by a Ronald Reagan administration policy that removed Iraq from the State Department's list State Sponsors of Terrorism. Leaked portions of Iraq's "Full, Final and Complete" disclosure of the sources for its weapons programs shows that thiodiglycol, a substance needed to manufacture mustard gas, was among the chemical precursors provided to Iraq from US companies such as Alcolac International and Phillips. Both companies have since undergone reorganization and Phillips, once a subsidiary of Phillips Petroleum and now part of ConocoPhillips, an American oil and energy company while Alcolac International has since dissolved and reformed as Alcolac Inc.[14]
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2008 06:48 am
Maybe Setanta can look into his crystal ball and tell us now who in 20 years will be the bad guy that we are supporting now?

That would certainly allow him an "I told you so moment".
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2008 06:53 am
High Seas wrote:
I wish someone would explain to me why, if the enemy is Al Qaeda, we first invade Iraq (no connection whatsoever with AQ) and now actually contemplate an attack on Iran (actively opposed to AQ).

Meanwhile plenty of arrests of folks spying for Israel but not a single - that means ZERO - arrest of anyone alleged to be spying for Iraq, or Iran, or Hamas.

If we can't even decide WHO IS the ENEMY then we don't have a prayer, imho.

And no, the enemy is not France; they're an ally. Israel is not an ally and never will be - no US president would sign such a treaty and no US Senate would ratify it.

Please get a grip CJ. It's not Obamamania, it's common sense.


I like you. For a conservative, you're pretty sound.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2008 07:19 am
Hussein did not use simply mustard gas on the Kurds, he used a mix which included sarin, tabun and VX. Guess where he got it, loser.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2008 07:34 am
From the Wikipedia article on the Halabja attack

The provision of chemical precursors from United States companies to Iraq was enabled by a Ronald Reagan administration policy that removed Iraq from the State Department's list State Sponsors of Terrorism. Leaked portions of Iraq's "Full, Final and Complete" disclosure of the sources for its weapons programs shows that thiodiglycol, a substance needed to manufacture mustard gas, was among the chemical precursors provided to Iraq from US companies such as Alcolac International and Phillips. Both companies have since undergone reorganization and Phillips, once a subsidiary of Phillips Petroleum and now part of ConocoPhillips, an American oil and energy company while Alcolac International has since dissolved and reformed as Alcolac Inc.

On March 12, 2008, the democratic government of Iraq announced plans to take legal action against the suppliers of chemicals used in the poison gas attack.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2008 07:36 am
Set does the same thing to Wikipedia that he does to the Constitution.

Thank God you can edit Wikis, eh Set?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2008 07:42 am
Wikipedia gives the following sources:

LA Weekly's "Made in the USA" article.

The Reuters Foundation AlertNet article "Iraq says to sue Halabja chemical weapons suppliers."


I am not registered at Wikipedia, and have never edited or even attempted to edit an article. When i have seen something in an article which i thought was wrong, or something missing, i have left a note on the discussion page. (Ask your asshole buddy McWhitey about editing articles at Wikipedia.)

As for the inference that i "edit" the United States Constitution, it's a simple matter to look up the passages i quote, and prove me wrong, if you think you can. Even a school child, or a Loser such as you can do that.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2008 07:45 am
Dumbass, you just reposted what I posted.... minus the part that tells you where all the stuff came from....

Just plain lame dude!!!!
0 Replies
 
 

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