1
   

What's so wrong with being an elitist?

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 07:07 am
I didn't ask for your feelings. I asked you for the evidence upon which you base your claim. I asked you what portion of the Constitution mitigates against mediocrity in the government.

There was no reference to your "feelings."


Moron.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 07:18 am
Setanta wrote:
I didn't ask for your feelings. I asked you for the evidence upon which you base your claim. I asked you what portion of the Constitution mitigates against mediocrity in the government.

There was no reference to your "feelings."


Moron.


My original statement was:
Drewdad wrote:
I have a feeling the founding fathers shared your views.


Twit. I fear for your brainstem from this example of your reading ability.

Now, if you wish to know upon what I base my feeling, I'd say it is based upon memories of classes I had from Junior High through college. I particularly remember the fears some of the founders had about mob rule.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 07:24 am
I am not quibbling about the nature of your original statement. When you had made your statement, i asked you what evidence you have for your claim. I asked you what it is about the nature of our government (i.e., the structure created by the Constitution) that mitigates against mediocrity. If all you had was your feeling, you might have just made the statement which you have just made about what was either the inadequacy of the teaching of history which you experienced, or your failure to properly comprehend what was told you.

The ability to read does not arise in the brain stem. I am rather dismayed that someone who claims to have a profession which requires at least a modicum of understanding of science does not know this--but sadly, given your behavior in these foras, i'd have to say that i'm not surprised that you don't know this.

Allegations about a fear of mob rule might apply to individuals, although even that would be a dicey proposition to prove with sound historiography. It is a fine example, though, of how for most people, history is more about popular myth than it is the careful study of the records available to us.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 07:35 am
You cannot imagine how little your opinions matter to me.


I never spoke to the actual structure of the Constitution. I spoke of my feeling about the beliefs of the founding fathers.


Your attempt to drive the conversation in that direction says more about your desperate need for validation than it does about my understanding of history.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 07:43 am
That's a laugh. I don't need to be "validated" with regard to my understanding of the process by which the Constitution was written and ratified, and the basis upon which the government is structured.

For someone who claims not to have an interest in my opinions, you're wasting an awful lot of electrons on a stupid argument (stupid on your part). I know you didn't mention the Constitution--but i did, because i consider your "feelings" on this matter to be unfounded. I had thought you might actually have some evidence to offer. Despite what J. B. Bury had to say on the subject, history is not a science. It is more akin to forensic investigation and the practice of criminal law. So, what one "feels" about history can be significant--but only if one's "feelings" have a substantive basis. Doubting that your claim had any substantive basis, i asked what evidence you have.

You might simply have replied that you had none, but instead, you have decided to drag the discussion down into a gutter of personal insult and sneers.

That's not a problem for me, a little dirt never hurt anyone, and i'm as happy to sling it at you as i am to dodge the mud you've been throwing at me.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 07:52 am
Setanta wrote:
a little dirt never hurt anyone, and i'm as happy to sling it at you as i am to dodge the mud you've been throwing at me.

I'm certain everyone here is quite aware of how happy you are to sling the dirt.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 07:56 am
What's so wrong with being an elitist?


Nothing at all if you're a Liberal.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 08:07 am
DrewDad wrote:
Setanta wrote:
a little dirt never hurt anyone, and i'm as happy to sling it at you as i am to dodge the mud you've been throwing at me.

I'm certain everyone here is quite aware of how happy you are to sling the dirt.


I'm sure they are as equally aware that you're a gobshite of rare proportion yourself.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 08:11 am
By the way, Drewclown . . . i asked you a question. I did not call you any names, i did not sneer, i asked politely. I said that i doubted that the founders were elitist. I asked what evidence you had.

You were the one who decided to make an acid response and refer to me as a dolt. Now you want to whine about how i've responded to the **** that you started.

Whiner.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 08:27 am
Any whining you hear is entirely inside your own head. I suggest that it is an echo of your own voice, reverberating in that vast empty space inside of you that in other folks encompasses their soul.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 09:05 am
Well, this is going swimmingly.

It's a smart question, thomas. As is so commonly the case, this term gets tossed around, its range of meanings poorly stipulated if stipulated at all, and because of a bunch of deep cultural reasons, it ends up looking like ages-old flypaper in an abattoir.

If our kid needs brain surgery, we'd probably be happy knowing that surgeon was among the elite in his field. When we dish out the big bucks for a dance or music or theatre performance, we probably aren't hoping for an average performance to unfold that evening. When the US sends a team of diplomats to help work out the Israeli/Palestinian problems, I'd assume we want the elite of that field to be in the team. When we are curious as to some issue of corruption or malfeasance or incompetence in, say, the prosecution of a war in which thousands or hundreds of thousands of people are killed and maimed, we'd probably want (though one never knows, these days) investigations carried out by the very cream of investigators, whether from journalism or from the military or civilian bodies. Regardless whether we might be a German working in Jersey or a governor working in New York, needing a brake job on the Mercedes or a blow job from Mercedes, there seems little in the way of sane reason not to hope for the best that's available.

george's post gets to the real issue here. It's the distinctly American binary opposition between the 'practical man' and the 'intellectual'. American confusion or discomfort with 'experts' reflects the same subject. It's a false dichotomy, wrapped in a few centuries of myth and cultural turmoil and it comes up to us today in precisely the mode he uses the term and in the manner he thinks about this issue.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 09:11 am
I so appreciate Bernies responses as he takes the time to compose his thoughts while i just bang away at the keyboard.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 09:15 am
Merely a necessary cognitive process allowing me to hang on to these few shreds of sanity, dys.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 10:36 am
Did you guys see the Daily Show yesterday? John Steward brought up the topic of elitism and interviewed one of his "experts". I don't know the guy's name, but he plays the PC in Apple's commercials. ("Hello, I'm a Mac ..." "... and I'm a PC"). His first remark was "boy, am I tired of this common man routine. Enough already! Or, as we elitists like to put it, ca suffit!"

Spoken after my heart. Why does the Yale-educated president feel he has to talk like a little league baseball coach? "Awesome speech, your holiness." Who knows, next thing he might spit tobacco onto the White House floor. And no, it's not just GWB. George H. W. Bush (Yale) and Bill Clinton (Georgetown, Oxford, Yale) pulled off the same tired "common man routine".

Why doesn't anyone in our newsmedia expose the "common man routine" for what it is -- phony and annoying?
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 10:46 am
Asimov wrote something to this effect: we would get a better breed of political leader if they were the type that had to be dragged kicking and screaming to their positions of authority (and not those highly desirous of such positions).
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 10:49 am
Thomas wrote:
His first remark was "boy, am I tired of this common man routine. Enough already! Or, as we elitists like to put it, ca suffit!"


If he really would have been an elitits, he would have used proper French - cela suffit - and not du langage familier :wink:
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 11:00 am
blatham wrote:
Well, this is going swimmingly.

It's a smart question, thomas. As is so commonly the case, this term gets tossed around, its range of meanings poorly stipulated if stipulated at all, and because of a bunch of deep cultural reasons, it ends up looking like ages-old flypaper in an abattoir.

If our kid needs brain surgery, we'd probably be happy knowing that surgeon was among the elite in his field. When we dish out the big bucks for a dance or music or theatre performance, we probably aren't hoping for an average performance to unfold that evening. When the US sends a team of diplomats to help work out the Israeli/Palestinian problems, I'd assume we want the elite of that field to be in the team. When we are curious as to some issue of corruption or malfeasance or incompetence in, say, the prosecution of a war in which thousands or hundreds of thousands of people are killed and maimed, we'd probably want (though one never knows, these days) investigations carried out by the very cream of investigators, whether from journalism or from the military or civilian bodies. Regardless whether we might be a German working in Jersey or a governor working in New York, needing a brake job on the Mercedes or a blow job from Mercedes, there seems little in the way of sane reason not to hope for the best that's available.

george's post gets to the real issue here. It's the distinctly American binary opposition between the 'practical man' and the 'intellectual'. American confusion or discomfort with 'experts' reflects the same subject. It's a false dichotomy, wrapped in a few centuries of myth and cultural turmoil and it comes up to us today in precisely the mode he uses the term and in the manner he thinks about this issue.


Missing from all this is the unanswered question of what we mean by "elite".

I think we would all agree that there are indeed standards by which one could judge (with a fair degree of reliability) whether a surgeon or a musician happens to belong to what is currently considered as the elite in his/her respective field. The standards would likely become more the subject of argument if we were to extend our search to include journalists, political analysts, diplomats, or even generals. In these areas the points of view of the observers become increasingly an important factor in the identification - we would discover competing notions regarding membership in these "elites".

In addition, experience teaches us that there are numerous examples of even physicians and musicians who, though widely admired and considered "elite" in their day were later revealed or regarded to be flawed and decidedly 'unelite' by subsequent generations. In short, identification with the elite, even if it can be made without argument, does not guarantee that the subject is truly better at what he does than the average run of humans. This uncertainty is even greater for those categories of human endeavor that don't so easily lend themselves to widespread agreement about such standards.

Finally, one must consider the results achieved by members of various elites. Were they 'good' or 'bad' for those affected by their work - as revealed after the dust settles? Surely Stalin, Hitler, Mao and others would be included in any pantheon of influential 20th century political leaders. However most of us would agree that they caused a great deal of useless suffering - and for no worthwhile end. I concede it is a bit hard to find the right application for a word like "elite" to such figures - prominence in the field and even dominance for a time may not constitute "elite" status to some (even most) observers. However, it is simply a fact that each of these leaders was indeed widely regarded as elite - and more - while they exercised power.

In his last paragraph above, Blatham raises an issue that preoccupies him regarding some peculiarly American (in his view) discomfort with "experts" or "intellectuals" (Hofstadter et. al.), presumably relating that "false dilemma" to my skepticism about "elites". While I acknowledge some connection with his previous arguments on this point, I don't buy it. My reservations are merely those I have stated above, plus a little sympathy for Hans Christian Andersen's ideas expressed in his story about the Emperor's new clothes. They are entirely pragmatic, practical and based on our experience.

I don't exclude the possibility that identification with some "elite" status may also be associated with enduring excellence and beneficial consequences. I merely remind him that "It ain't necessarily so...".
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 11:03 am
georgeob1 wrote:
blatham wrote:
Well, this is going swimmingly.

It's a smart question, thomas. As is so commonly the case, this term gets tossed around, its range of meanings poorly stipulated if stipulated at all, and because of a bunch of deep cultural reasons, it ends up looking like ages-old flypaper in an abattoir.

If our kid needs brain surgery, we'd probably be happy knowing that surgeon was among the elite in his field. When we dish out the big bucks for a dance or music or theatre performance, we probably aren't hoping for an average performance to unfold that evening. When the US sends a team of diplomats to help work out the Israeli/Palestinian problems, I'd assume we want the elite of that field to be in the team. When we are curious as to some issue of corruption or malfeasance or incompetence in, say, the prosecution of a war in which thousands or hundreds of thousands of people are killed and maimed, we'd probably want (though one never knows, these days) investigations carried out by the very cream of investigators, whether from journalism or from the military or civilian bodies. Regardless whether we might be a German working in Jersey or a governor working in New York, needing a brake job on the Mercedes or a blow job from Mercedes, there seems little in the way of sane reason not to hope for the best that's available.

george's post gets to the real issue here. It's the distinctly American binary opposition between the 'practical man' and the 'intellectual'. American confusion or discomfort with 'experts' reflects the same subject. It's a false dichotomy, wrapped in a few centuries of myth and cultural turmoil and it comes up to us today in precisely the mode he uses the term and in the manner he thinks about this issue.


Missing from all this is the unanswered question of what we mean by "elite".

I think we would all agree that there are indeed standards by which one could judge (with a fair degree of reliability) whether a surgeon or a musician happens to belong to what is currently considered as the elite in his/her respective field. The standards would likely become more the subject of argument if we were to extend our search to include journalists, political analysts, diplomats, or even generals. In these areas the points of view of the observers become increasingly an important factor in the identification - we would discover competing notions regarding membership in these "elites".

In addition, experience teaches us that there are numerous examples of even physicians and musicians who, though widely admired and considered "elite" in their day were later revealed or regarded to be flawed and decidedly 'unelite' by subsequent generations. In short, identification with the elite, even if it can be made without argument, does not guarantee that the subject is truly better at what he does than the average run of humans. This uncertainty is even greater for those categories of human endeavor that don't so easily lend themselves to widespread agreement about such standards.

Finally, one must consider the results achieved by members of various elites. Were they 'good' or 'bad' for those affected by their work - as revealed after the dust settles? Surely Stalin, Hitler, Mao and others would be included in any pantheon of influential 20th century political leaders. However most of us would agree that they caused a great deal of useless suffering - and for no worthwhile end. I concede it is a bit hard to find the right application for a word like "elite" to such figures - prominence in the field and even dominance for a time may not constitute "elite" status to some (even most) observers. However, it is simply a fact that each of these leaders was indeed widely regarded as elite - and more - while they exercised power.

In his last paragraph above, Blatham raises an issue that preoccupies him regarding some peculiarly American (in his view) discomfort with "experts" or "intellectuals" (Hofstadter et. al.), presumably relating that "false dilemma" to my skepticism about "elites". While I acknowledge some connection with his previous arguments on this point, I don't buy it. My reservations are merely those I have stated above, plus a little sympathy for Hans Christian Andersen's ideas expressed in his story about the Emperor's new clothes. They are entirely pragmatic, practical and based on our experience.

I don't exclude the possibility that identification with some "elite" status may also be associated with enduring excellence and beneficial consequences. I merely remind him that "It ain't necessarily so...".


But, you realize that the actual status of 'elitism' has little to do with the slur 'elitist' which is frequently used by Republicans (and Clinton of late). The slur means 'someone who thinks they are better then you, common man.'

It fits right in with the 'ivory tower' slur.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 11:12 am
DrewDad wrote:
Any whining you hear is entirely inside your own head. I suggest that it is an echo of your own voice, reverberating in that vast empty space inside of you that in other folks encompasses their soul.


No, you started the hateful bullshit, so the whining is entirely yours. As for my "soul," given that i have no good reason to believe that any such thing exists, i'll just put that down to what becomes increasingly obvious is your confusion about the nature of the world.

Tell me again about the brain stem and reading . . . that was a good one.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 11:19 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:

But, you realize that the actual status of 'elitism' has little to do with the slur 'elitist' which is frequently used by Republicans (and Clinton of late). The slur means 'someone who thinks they are better then you, common man.'

It fits right in with the 'ivory tower' slur.

Cycloptichorn


I'm not sure I follow your meaning here. One could label another as an "elitist" admiringly. Likewise one could intend the appelation as a slur. It depends, not on the word, but on the intent of the one who uses it and the context in which it is used.

In the issue surrounding Obama I think we would agree that many of those applying that label to him intend it to indicate that he may believe he fully understands the thinking and motives of some group, and by implication, believes he can speak for them -- in short that their world view is a subset of his, that he is in that sense better than them. Whether that is a slur or not also depends on whether you believe that judgement is true or even merited by the facts.

I don't claim to know the truth of the matter, but do believe such a judgement indicates a possibility. Even so, it could reflect anything from a momentary slip, indicating a minor background tendency - to a conscious, purposeful thought and judgement on his part. That's a fairly wide gap over which we have very little insight at all.

However, it remains grist for the political mill, particularly in a situation in which we have a candidate who promises so much, but has a relatively short public record. This may be a hard thought for Obama supporters to take, but I believe it is one that will influence the thinking of many voters - whether the commited Obama supporters like it or not.
0 Replies
 
 

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