"History will not judge this kindly" - torture OKed from top

Brandon9000 wrote:

blatham wrote:

Again...what are the chances that any such document or written policy would be released by this administration when the legal jeopardy of those involved is so clearly in question? Not to mention the PR repercussions for administration and party. As with each related revelation (Abu Ghraib photos, the Torture Memos, etc) which now provide us with a real if partial picture of what went on leading up to the approval for and committment of torture of prisoners, we have and will learn of these matters not via the administration but in spite of the administrations attempts to bury every detail.

Even if you're right about this, it still leaves you blaming Mr. Bush for something you have virtually no evidence that he really did.

What, for you, would constitute adequate evidence?

I would venture to say that if Bush himself told him he had ok'd the waterboarding he would refuse to believe him.

blatham wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

blatham wrote:

Again...what are the chances that any such document or written policy would be released by this administration when the legal jeopardy of those involved is so clearly in question? Not to mention the PR repercussions for administration and party. As with each related revelation (Abu Ghraib photos, the Torture Memos, etc) which now provide us with a real if partial picture of what went on leading up to the approval for and committment of torture of prisoners, we have and will learn of these matters not via the administration but in spite of the administrations attempts to bury every detail.

Even if you're right about this, it still leaves you blaming Mr. Bush for something you have virtually no evidence that he really did.

What, for you, would constitute adequate evidence?

Addendum question to you Brandon...

Would you support the call for an Independent Prosecutor to look into this matter?

blatham wrote:

blatham wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

blatham wrote:

Again...what are the chances that any such document or written policy would be released by this administration when the legal jeopardy of those involved is so clearly in question? Not to mention the PR repercussions for administration and party. As with each related revelation (Abu Ghraib photos, the Torture Memos, etc) which now provide us with a real if partial picture of what went on leading up to the approval for and committment of torture of prisoners, we have and will learn of these matters not via the administration but in spite of the administrations attempts to bury every detail.

Even if you're right about this, it still leaves you blaming Mr. Bush for something you have virtually no evidence that he really did.

What, for you, would constitute adequate evidence?

Addendum question to you Brandon...

Would you support the call for an Independent Prosecutor to look into this matter?

Possibly, if it weren't going to be a Kenneth Starr type witch hunt, but I would need at least one piece of evidence that Mr. Bush probably authorized torture before considering such a prosecutor appropriate. I can't see authorizing one based only on unsupported rumors by his enemies.

"History will not judge this kindly" - Terrorist torture passengers on 3 planes before crashing them and killing all of them.

H2O_MAN wrote:

"History will not judge this kindly" - Terrorist torture passengers on 3 planes before crashing them and killing all of them.

True enough. On the other hand, there are circumstances under which Johny Yoo, there at the Bush Department of Justice, would allow big swarthy men to hold you son down in front of you and crush his testicles. I'm not sure if they'd use one of those walnut openers or just drop the Liberty Bell on the boy's little jewels. But what the heck. Freedom might demand no less.

blatham wrote:

H2O_MAN wrote:

"History will not judge this kindly" - Terrorist torture passengers on 3 planes before crashing them and killing all of them.

True enough. On the other hand, there are circumstances under which Johny Yoo, there at the Bush Department of Justice, would allow big swarthy men to hold you son down in front of you and crush his testicles. I'm not sure if they'd use one of those walnut openers or just drop the Liberty Bell on the boy's little jewels. But what the heck. Freedom might demand no less.

You write books for children don't you ... two in the hand ...

H2O_MAN wrote:

You write books for children don't you ... two in the hand ...

No. Mainly I write to help under-educated Americans gain perspective on how and why they have managed to vulgarize the fundamental christian virtues and become, for example, torturers and mercenaries while leaving lepers to rot on the banks of the Mississippi and Tigris rivers. It's a big task though. I know I can count on your help.

Well, I have the Sermon on the Mount on my side, of course.

blatham wrote:

Well, I have the Sermon on the Mount on my side, of course.

No. You are really alone.

Come up through Augustine, brief pause at Aquinas, perhaps zip right up to your Founders...you know the routine.

What do you say?

Brandon9000 wrote:

blatham wrote:

blatham wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

blatham wrote:

Again...what are the chances that any such document or written policy would be released by this administration when the legal jeopardy of those involved is so clearly in question? Not to mention the PR repercussions for administration and party. As with each related revelation (Abu Ghraib photos, the Torture Memos, etc) which now provide us with a real if partial picture of what went on leading up to the approval for and committment of torture of prisoners, we have and will learn of these matters not via the administration but in spite of the administrations attempts to bury every detail.

Even if you're right about this, it still leaves you blaming Mr. Bush for something you have virtually no evidence that he really did.

What, for you, would constitute adequate evidence?

Addendum question to you Brandon...

Would you support the call for an Independent Prosecutor to look into this matter?

Possibly, if it weren't going to be a Kenneth Starr type witch hunt, but I would need at least one piece of evidence that Mr. Bush probably authorized torture before considering such a prosecutor appropriate. I can't see authorizing one based only on unsupported rumors by his enemies.

Except, that as soon as any such charge is forwarded, the forwarder, regardless of who he is or how well placed, becomes 'his enemy'.

And regardless of whether Bush himself signed such a document, an investigation would be fully warranted if torture was planned and approved by his cabinet members... Bush's participation is irrelevant to this.

You've continually failed to address the reality that any such document as you refer to would ever be released by this administration because of the legal (not to mention PR) vulnerabilities that would accrue.

Talking with you pretty much always proves a waste of everyone's time. You fall, always, to a silly pretence that you are Perry Mason. There's nothing to suggest you care very much at all about consistency and certainly not about finding out the facts of things.

But it doesn't matter much because you are quite irrelevant to the matters at hand. Historians, journalists and prosecutors (not merely in America, America being signatory to various international legal agreements) will continue to dig into these things. And as more participants and witnesses emerge, through the demands of their own consciences or subpoenas, there will be consequences for any who have contributed to this disgusting chapter in American history.

H2O_MAN wrote:

blatham wrote:

H2O_MAN wrote:

"History will not judge this kindly" - Terrorist torture passengers on 3 planes before crashing them and killing all of them.

True enough. On the other hand, there are circumstances under which Johny Yoo, there at the Bush Department of Justice, would allow big swarthy men to hold you son down in front of you and crush his testicles. I'm not sure if they'd use one of those walnut openers or just drop the Liberty Bell on the boy's little jewels. But what the heck. Freedom might demand no less.

You write books for children don't you ... two in the hand ...

No. Mainly I write to help under-educated Americans gain perspective on how and why they have managed to vulgarize the fundamental christian virtues and become, for example, torturers and mercenaries while leaving lepers to rot on the banks of the Mississippi and Tigris rivers. It's a big task though. I know I can count on your help.