April 11th, 2008 4:23 pm
Cheney, others OK'd harsh interrogations
By Lara Jakes Jordan and Pamela Hess / Associated Press
WASHINGTON - Bush administration officials from Vice President Dick Cheney on down signed off on using harsh interrogation techniques against suspected terrorists after asking the Justice Department to endorse their legality, The Associated Press has learned.
The officials also took care to insulate President Bush from a series of meetings where CIA interrogation methods, including waterboarding, which simulates drowning, were discussed and ultimately approved.
A former senior U.S. intelligence official familiar with the meetings described them Thursday to the AP to confirm details first reported by ABC News on Wednesday. The intelligence official spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to publicly discuss the issue.
Between 2002 and 2003, the Justice Department issued several memos from its Office of Legal Counsel that justified using the interrogation tactics, including ones that critics call torture.
"If you looked at the timing of the meetings and the memos you'd see a correlation," the former intelligence official said. Those who attended the dozens of meetings agreed that "there'd need to be a legal opinion on the legality of these tactics" before using them on al-Qaida detainees, the former official said.
The meetings were held in the White House Situation Room in the years immediately following the Sept. 11 attacks. Attending the sessions were then-Bush aides Attorney General John Ashcroft, Secretary of State Colin Powell, CIA Director George Tenet and national security adviser Condoleezza Rice.
The White House, Justice and State departments and the CIA refused comment Thursday, as did a spokesman for Tenet. A message for Ashcroft was not immediately returned.
Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, D-Mass., lambasted what he described as "yet another astonishing disclosure about the Bush administration and its use of torture."
"Who would have thought that in the United States of America in the 21st century, the top officials of the executive branch would routinely gather in the White House to approve torture?" Kennedy said in a statement. "Long after President Bush has left office, our country will continue to pay the price for his administration's renegade repudiation of the rule of law and fundamental human rights."
The American Civil Liberties Union called on Congress to investigate.
"With each new revelation, it is beginning to look like the torture operation was managed and directed out of the White House," ACLU legislative director Caroline Fredrickson said. "This is what we suspected all along."
The former intelligence official described Cheney and the top national security officials as deeply immersed in developing the CIA's interrogation program during months of discussions over which methods should be used and when.
At times, CIA officers would demonstrate some of the tactics, or at least detail how they worked, to make sure the small group of "principals" fully understood what the al-Qaida detainees would undergo. The principals eventually authorized physical abuse such as slaps and pushes, sleep deprivation, or waterboarding. This technique involves strapping a person down and pouring water over his cloth-covered face to create the sensation of drowning.
The small group then asked the Justice Department to examine whether using the interrogation methods would break domestic or international laws.
"No one at the agency wanted to operate under a notion of winks and nods and assumptions that everyone understood what was being talked about," said a second former senior intelligence official. "People wanted to be assured that everything that was conducted was understood and approved by the folks in the chain of command."
The Office of Legal Counsel issued at least two opinions on interrogation methods.
In one, dated Aug. 1, 2002, then-Assistant Attorney General Jay Bybee defined torture as covering "only extreme acts" causing pain similar in intensity to that caused by death or organ failure. A second, dated March 14, 2003, justified using harsh tactics on detainees held overseas so long as military interrogators did not specifically intend to torture their captives.
Both legal opinions since have been withdrawn.
The second former senior intelligence official said rescinding the memos caused the CIA to seek even more detailed approvals for the interrogations.
The department issued another still-secret memo in October 2001 that, in part, sought to outline novel ways the military could be used domestically to defend the country in the face of an impending attack. The Justice Department so far has refused to release it, citing attorney-client privilege, and Attorney General Michael Mukasey declined to describe it Thursday at a Senate panel where Democrats characterized it as a "torture memo."
Not all of the principals who attended were fully comfortable with the White House meetings.
The ABC News report portrayed Ashcroft as troubled by the discussions, despite agreeing that the interrogations methods were legal.
"Why are we talking about this in the White House?" the network quoted Ashcroft as saying during one meeting. "History will not judge this kindly."
___
Associated Press writer Pete Yost contributed to this report.
This article makes it look, for instance, as though the White House formally authorized waterboarding, and I doubt that it's so. Is waterboarding, for instance, stated as an approved method of interrorgation in any document anywhere? What document? I suspect that this is false.
The end result of that
(if you can stomach it)
http://www.alternet.org/rights/81406/?page=entire
IMO anyone who advocates torture is undermining the human rights of us all (every human alive today) by doing so and therefore makes themselves an enemy of the world
America has to deal with the reality - and i think that is starting to happen
There is no doubt in my mind that George Bush and his band of cut throats are going to prison for a very long time -
To be honest, i'm simply amazed that George W Bush is still in the white house laughing it up. Seriously - i'm stunned he's still there.
You can do all the talking you like - you can sneer at other nations around you - you can sneer at me - be my guest, i'm not important -but the whole world is waiting for the US to disown the politics of the neo cons - for the sake of
the planet -
We need a strong America that will lead the world in dealing with environmental and poverty issues - and we need that NOW
Not tomorrow, not next year, not after the US war mongers (riding rough shot over the masses and ignoring public opinion) have bombed Iran - but now
Of course the industrial/war complex don't want a united world and they are calling the shots - so America needs a President who can see beyond the manufacture of weaponry in order to plump up his retirement.
(And has the balls to stand up to the corporate mafia)
A man/woman of vision and strength. Is that so much to ask for? In all those millions of people who live there - surely a sound mind and principled visionary exists..
I hate war as only a soldier who has lived it can, only as one who has seen its brutality, its futility, its stupidity.
~Dwight D. Eisenhower
I think that people want peace so much that one of these days government had better get out of their way and let them have it.
~Dwight D. Eisenhower
Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism.
~George Washington
Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force...Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action.
~George Washington
Observe good faith and justice toward all nations. Cultivate peace and harmony with all.
~George Washington
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.
~James Madison
Vietnam should remind conservatives that whenever you put your faith in big government for any reason, sooner or later you wind up an apologist for mass murder.
~Karl Hess
We all have to be concerned about terrorism, but you will never end terrorism by terrorizing others.
~Martin Luther King III
Everybody's worried about stopping terrorism. Well, there's a really easy way: stop participating in it.
~Noam Chomsky
Preventive war is like committing suicide out of fear of death.
~Otto von Bismarck
No one has deputized America to play Wyatt Earp to the world.
~Patrick J. Buchanan
What a cruel thing is war: to separate and destroy families and friends, and mar the purest joys and happiness god has given us in this world...
~Robert E. Lee
A people free to choose will always choose peace.
~Ronald Reagan
Every nation has its war party. It is not the party of democracy. It is the party of autocracy. It seeks to dominate absolutely.
~Senator Robert M. La Follette
All wars are fought for money.
~Socrates
That there are men in all countries who get their living by war, and by keeping up the quarrels of Nations is as shocking as it is true...
~Thomas Paine
A coward is much more exposed to quarrels than a man of spirit.
~Thomas Jefferson
Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official...
~Theodore Roosevelt
That we are to stand by the president, right or wrong is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.
~Theodore Roosevelt
Free nations are peaceful nations. Free nations don't attack each other. Free nations don't develop weapons of mass destruction.
~George W. Bush
Yeah, you said it George
btw Alternet (above page) is a Reuters (humanitarian) site
So, the White House approved something related to interrogation? What did they approve? Do you have a link? I may have missed something, but in this entire thread, I have not seen any statement that something specific has been approved by the President in writing. I am not saying that it isn't so, but I sure haven't seen anything specific.
What I hear is that we don't like Bush because he strikes us as the sort of person who we think might approve something like this.
History
if it is written by Mother Theresa and not by Lady Di:
If it is written by half naked Fakir whose name is Gandhi and not by Chruchill
If it is written by MLK and not byCia fact books
If it is writen by Nleson mandela and not by the corporate CEO's
The word war would have vanished from the dictionary.
Brandon9000 wrote:This article makes it look, for instance, as though the White House formally authorized waterboarding, and I doubt that it's so. Is waterboarding, for instance, stated as an approved method of interrorgation in any document anywhere? What document? I suspect that this is false.
Quote:LARA JAKES JORDAN and PAMELA HESS
AP News
Apr 11, 2008 05:25 EST
Bush administration officials from Vice President Dick Cheney on down signed off on using harsh interrogation techniques against suspected terrorists after asking the Justice Department to endorse their legality, The Associated Press has learned.
The officials also took care to insulate President Bush from a series of meetings where CIA interrogation methods, including waterboarding, which simulates drowning, were discussed and ultimately approved.
What is it you are imagining here, brandon? A document saying "I personally approve waterboarding and all other techniques OKed by the Principals and determined as legal by the AG's office....signed hereunder....George W Bush" ?
Do you further imagine such a document would ever be released?
Regardless of whether Bush actually signed any such document, he is responsible for his administration, most immediately for his cabinet level members and their acts.
History is a bible.
Everyone can read and none is interested.
Rama
blatham wrote:Brandon9000 wrote:This article makes it look, for instance, as though the White House formally authorized waterboarding, and I doubt that it's so. Is waterboarding, for instance, stated as an approved method of interrorgation in any document anywhere? What document? I suspect that this is false.
Quote:LARA JAKES JORDAN and PAMELA HESS
AP News
Apr 11, 2008 05:25 EST
Bush administration officials from Vice President Dick Cheney on down signed off on using harsh interrogation techniques against suspected terrorists after asking the Justice Department to endorse their legality, The Associated Press has learned.
The officials also took care to insulate President Bush from a series of meetings where CIA interrogation methods, including waterboarding, which simulates drowning, were discussed and ultimately approved.
What is it you are imagining here, brandon? A document saying "I personally approve waterboarding and all other techniques OKed by the Principals and determined as legal by the AG's office....signed hereunder....George W Bush" ?
Do you further imagine such a document would ever be released?
Regardless of whether Bush actually signed any such document, he is responsible for his administration, most immediately for his cabinet level members and their acts.
It certainly must be so that approved guidelines for interrogation appear in some document. If waterboarding was approved as a matter of national policy, then I disapprove, but I still haven't seen much to convince me that it was. I do know, because I saw it about a year ago somewhere, that there was an army manual which specifically forbade it.
Mr. Bush is certainly responsible for official, written policy. He is perhaps responsible for, but probably not to blame for cases in which individuals act contrary to policy.
goddam man. I refuse to believe you to be such a tool to the root. It just is not possible for someone to be this totally deluded... it just can't be.
Brandon9000 wrote:blatham wrote:Brandon9000 wrote:This article makes it look, for instance, as though the White House formally authorized waterboarding, and I doubt that it's so. Is waterboarding, for instance, stated as an approved method of interrorgation in any document anywhere? What document? I suspect that this is false.
Quote:LARA JAKES JORDAN and PAMELA HESS
AP News
Apr 11, 2008 05:25 EST
Bush administration officials from Vice President Dick Cheney on down signed off on using harsh interrogation techniques against suspected terrorists after asking the Justice Department to endorse their legality, The Associated Press has learned.
The officials also took care to insulate President Bush from a series of meetings where CIA interrogation methods, including waterboarding, which simulates drowning, were discussed and ultimately approved.
What is it you are imagining here, brandon? A document saying "I personally approve waterboarding and all other techniques OKed by the Principals and determined as legal by the AG's office....signed hereunder....George W Bush" ?
Do you further imagine such a document would ever be released?
Regardless of whether Bush actually signed any such document, he is responsible for his administration, most immediately for his cabinet level members and their acts.
It certainly must be so that approved guidelines for interrogation appear in some document. If waterboarding was approved as a matter of national policy, then I disapprove, but I still haven't seen much to convince me that it was. I do know, because I saw it about a year ago somewhere, that there was an army manual which specifically forbade it.
Mr. Bush is certainly responsible for official, written policy. He is perhaps responsible for, but probably not to blame for cases in which individuals act contrary to policy.
Again...what are the chances that any such document or written policy would be released by this administration when the legal jeopardy of those involved is so clearly in question? Not to mention the PR repercussions for administration and party. As with each related revelation (Abu Ghraib photos, the Torture Memos, etc) which now provide us with a real if partial picture of what went on leading up to the approval for and committment of torture of prisoners, we have and will learn of these matters not via the administration but in spite of the administrations attempts to bury every detail.
From the Washington Note in 2005
Quote:Another topic of emotional importance in Wilkerson's talk, which clearly echoes Powell's personal concerns, was his denunciation of the "torture memo" and its effects, predicting "ten years from now, when we have the whole story, we are going to be ashamed."
What is he hinting? In some of the private chats noted above, Powell and Armitage have quoted President Bush, Rumsfeld and Cheney as leading a collective round of ridicule when Powell, at Cabinet meetings, and Armitage, at Subcabinet, sought to put limits on mistreatment of prisoners at Guantanamo. . .long before the cancer of Abu Ghraib. We reported on this at the time of last year's Senate hearings (the title of one was "A Fish Rots From The Head").
http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/2005/10/chris_nelson_on/
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/09/magazine/09rosen.html
snood wrote:goddam man. I refuse to believe you to be such a tool to the root. It just is not possible for someone to be this totally deluded... it just can't be.
I find it very, very interesting, and completely expected, that you give no specifics whatsoever. If you were right and I was wrong, I think that you would be both inclined and able to give some argument to support your position. Name calling is the absolute lowest form of argument.
I invite you to point out where I am wrong, but recall that all I have done was to ask for a specific example of a form of torture that Mr. Bush approved, and some indication of where the approval might be written down.
blatham wrote:Again...what are the chances that any such document or written policy would be released by this administration when the legal jeopardy of those involved is so clearly in question? Not to mention the PR repercussions for administration and party. As with each related revelation (Abu Ghraib photos, the Torture Memos, etc) which now provide us with a real if partial picture of what went on leading up to the approval for and committment of torture of prisoners, we have and will learn of these matters not via the administration but in spite of the administrations attempts to bury every detail.
Even if you're right about this, it still leaves you blaming Mr. Bush for something you have virtually no evidence that he really did.
snood wrote:goddam man. I refuse to believe you to be such a tool to the root. It just is not possible for someone to be this totally deluded... it just can't be.
I too, have always been astounded at the depth of these folks delusion, Snood. How do they function day to day? One of the truly great mysteries of life.
Quote:
Bush Admits To Knowledge of Torture Authorization by Top Advisers (4/12/2008)
ACLU Calls for Independent Counsel to Investigate Administration's Approval of Torture and Abuse
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
CONTACT:
ACLU Washington Legislative Office, (202) 675-2312 or
[email protected]
National ACLU, (917) 251-8654 or
[email protected]
WASHINGTON - In a stunning admission to ABC news Friday night, President Bush declared that he knew his top national security advisers discussed and approved specific details of the CIA's use of torture. Bush reportedly told ABC, "I'm aware our national security team met on this issue. And I approved." Bush also defended the use of waterboarding.
http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general/34879prs20080412.html
"Bush Admits To Knowledge of Torture Authorization by Top Advisers".
"What is shown on the photographs and videos from Abu Ghraib prison that the Pentagon has blocked from release? One clue: Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told Congress last year, after viewing a large cache of unreleased images, "I mean, I looked at them last night, and they're hard to believe." They show acts "that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhumane," he added."
link
Brandon9000 wrote:blatham wrote:Again...what are the chances that any such document or written policy would be released by this administration when the legal jeopardy of those involved is so clearly in question? Not to mention the PR repercussions for administration and party. As with each related revelation (Abu Ghraib photos, the Torture Memos, etc) which now provide us with a real if partial picture of what went on leading up to the approval for and committment of torture of prisoners, we have and will learn of these matters not via the administration but in spite of the administrations attempts to bury every detail.
Even if you're right about this, it still leaves you blaming Mr. Bush for something you have virtually no evidence that he really did.
What, for you, would constitute adequate evidence?
I would venture to say that if Bush himself told him he had ok'd the waterboarding he would refuse to believe him.
blatham wrote:Brandon9000 wrote:blatham wrote:Again...what are the chances that any such document or written policy would be released by this administration when the legal jeopardy of those involved is so clearly in question? Not to mention the PR repercussions for administration and party. As with each related revelation (Abu Ghraib photos, the Torture Memos, etc) which now provide us with a real if partial picture of what went on leading up to the approval for and committment of torture of prisoners, we have and will learn of these matters not via the administration but in spite of the administrations attempts to bury every detail.
Even if you're right about this, it still leaves you blaming Mr. Bush for something you have virtually no evidence that he really did.
What, for you, would constitute adequate evidence?
Addendum question to you Brandon...
Would you support the call for an Independent Prosecutor to look into this matter?
