voluntary rape

kickycan wrote:

Chumly, I once tried to have a discussion about the gray areas of rape, and found that it is a topic that is impossible to discuss rationally. The word itself conjures up too many emotions, it seems. I commend you for trying, but I feel that you will inevitably be shouted down by emotion and fear.

Good luck though. Carry on.

I guess I had better go shopping for tools then; a man cannot have too many tools. I picked up a tap and die set, telescoping air gun and lumber moisture detector yesterday.

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kickycan wrote:

I agree, Bella. I wasn't actually saying that YOU would go insane with irrational rage at the mere mention of the word (you are pretty much always rational and sensible, as far as I can tell), but there are many who would, and this is why I shy away from any discussion that involves rape.

Ciao, Bellissima

The only time I am irrational and insane is when you are in the same room with me. Your manly scent drives me wild.

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Chumly wrote:

Bella Dea wrote:
I want you to note the bolded dates. These are 10 years old or older. Technology and forensic science have come so far in 10 years. I'd like to see statistics that are not as dated.

As well, please read the bolded paragraph that states only 9% of all cases are false.

That's 9 women out of 100. While unacceptable for those 9 men, not nearly as horrific as the 91 women who really were raped.

Your vague reference to an arbitrary period of time has not been shown to have consequential relevance, as such you counter is dismissed.

I suggest they are relevant in the context referred to and you have provided no argument as to why they should not be considered relevant in the context referred to.

So, the prevalence of DNA testing and the advances in forensic science have done nothing to the criminal justice system?

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Bella Dea wrote:

And then turned to the topic of false accusations which further perpetuates the myth that a woman who has been raped is a liar, asked for it, wanted it, or otherwise deserved it. It makes real rape survivors afraid to come forward for fear of persecution.

Let be EXTREMELY clear on this: NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON IN THIS THREAD HAS EVEN SUGGESTED THAT A WOMAN WHO HAS BEEN RAPED DESERVED IT, ASKED FOR IT OR ANY THING ELSE IN ANY WAY SIMILAR.

That is something that YOU have read into posts that wasn't there and insisted upon fighting against without any reason.

Quote:

I don't doubt that there are cases where men are sent to prision for raping someone they didn't rape. But there are also cases of men sent to prision for a murder they didn't commit. The system is flawed.

Glad to see you are finally willing to admit it.

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Bella Dea wrote:

Chumly wrote:
Bella Dea wrote:
I want you to note the bolded dates. These are 10 years old or older. Technology and forensic science have come so far in 10 years. I'd like to see statistics that are not as dated.

As well, please read the bolded paragraph that states only 9% of all cases are false.

That's 9 women out of 100. While unacceptable for those 9 men, not nearly as horrific as the 91 women who really were raped.

Your vague reference to an arbitrary period of time has not been shown to have consequential relevance, as such you counter is dismissed.

I suggest they are relevant in the context referred to and you have provided no argument as to why they should not be considered relevant in the context referred to.

So, the prevalence of DNA testing and the advances in forensic science have done nothing to the criminal justice system?

Substantiate your claim as per your vague reference to an arbitrary period of time in the context referred to, and you may have a case.

Your straw-man rhetoric simply undermines your credibility. As it stands, your counter is dismissed.

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Bella Dea wrote:

That's 9 women out of 100. While unacceptable for those 9 men, not nearly as horrific as the 91 women who really were raped.

You really are to much. First of all, the very paragraph you cite that number from has a caveat that the FBI stats don't include all false reports and you compltely ignore the other 4 reports that peg the number as being significantly higher (and Karrin also did 2 other studies not listed above that both found the false accusation rate to be as high as 50% on college campuses.)

Secondly, if stats hold up then at least 2 of those 9 innocent men will be raped themselves while serving their prison terms.

How does that hold up on your "horrific" scale?

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fishin wrote:

Bella Dea wrote:
And then turned to the topic of false accusations which further perpetuates the myth that a woman who has been raped is a liar, asked for it, wanted it, or otherwise deserved it. It makes real rape survivors afraid to come forward for fear of persecution.

Let be EXTREMELY clear on this: NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON IN THIS THREAD HAS EVEN SUGGESTED THAT A WOMAN WHO HAS BEEN RAPED DESERVED IT, ASKED FOR IT OR ANY THING ELSE IN ANY WAY SIMILAR.

That is something that YOU have read into posts that wasn't there and insisted upon fighting against without any reason.

Quote:
I don't doubt that there are cases where men are sent to prision for raping someone they didn't rape. But there are also cases of men sent to prision for a murder they didn't commit. The system is flawed.

Glad to see you are finally willing to admit it.

I didn't say anyone here said it. But I can tell you without doubt that the mentality is out there.

And I never denied the fact that innocents go to prision.

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This is the most ridiculous conversation because I am talking to two men who will never understand.

Unless, of course, you've been raped.

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Thoughtless knee-jerk reaction.

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Chumly wrote:

Thoughtless knee-jerk reaction.

Yours?

I know.

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Here's a thought...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sKDSXt0pzs

RH

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"Absolutely Riveting" is right. Thank god it was so short. lol But we needed that, so thanks!

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Bella Dea wrote:

Chumly wrote:
Thoughtless knee-jerk reaction.

Yours?

I know.

Resorting to juvenile parroting erases what marginal credence you had left.

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What a jackass.

You have zero credence here, Chumpster, having started a thread with as idiotic a premise as that there is any such thing as "voluntary rape."

Clown.

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I'm without doubt there are many versions of play rape, and that is those participants' own business. I have a slight understanding of the possibilities of that or other kinds of, to me, extreme play - I remember Oshima's Realm of the Senses for the sexual tension of the characters and for the denouement, not that that was about rape. As rape play may edge to the real, or some kind of general situation where one person may be a genuine victim or may well not be, at least of the immediate actor, though probably of life), I do question, but for the purposes of this thread won't go there. For the purpose of discussion, let's say all those people agreed or acquiesced.

Certainly the original post quotation is silly, none of those examples are rape.

I'm without doubt that many instances are called rape that aren't, and that people's reputations and sometimes lives are ruined by it. I do agree this is terrible, and am not just being nicey. I've seen people decimated by false accusations, if not precisely about rape.

As to play rape - it is not all that amusing to some of us who have been raped for real. That we be excoriated for being ignorant fools not competent to understand the POWER MODE is of course brutalistic, or, eh, stupid. But that really is a red herring, in that rape games or whatever are, again, for the purposes of this thread, consensual, thus not rape.

Some don't seem to get that, though many have posted that whatever is consensual is not rape. There is, instead, a kind of Power Exhilaration in an effort to subjugate others stupidity re one's power exhilaration, and so on, sort of an endless loop.

I might have missed something. Hawkeye, are you saying rape is fine as a function of the power mode? I take it that you make a distinction re play and real, but I'm not sure now after that last power speech.

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Of course there is a certain silliness in the first post, and naturally those with rape direct experience could react with emotionalism to the exemption of the big picture. Those can be considered givens.

Nice post overall!

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My day went a little sideways, I couldn't really deal with the quote box business but to call the original post "silliness" is just beyond offensive.

That woman's thoughts were insulting and demeaning and stupid--not "silliness".

I was serious when I asked if that if someone put their nose within reach of my fist and I hit them and they hadn't told me "NO" whether they did or did not consent to being hit.

Rape is a serious and horrendous crime.

It doesn't have anything to do with "you be my cabana boy" sex play.

When someone is f*** you and your only thought is "how do I get out of this alive" to debate whether a crime is being committed is insane.

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ossobuco wrote:

I might have missed something. Hawkeye, are you saying rape is fine as a function of the power mode? I take it that you make a distinction re play and real, but I'm not sure now after that last power speech.

I know that I said that I was out, but I'll come back because ossobuco asked me too.

I am saying that rape, ravishment, forced sex, forced seduction et al are fine if this is what both who are doing it want. Numbers of women who want this are unknown, since the desire gets repressed due to current societal values, and because we don't talk honestly about sex, much less sexual fantasies. Wikipedia gives the number at 34% for the fantasy, but who knows.

What I know is that some women want it for real so badly that they have to have it. They will either negotiate for it or manipulate for it. Some want it less so, they are open to playing rape in the bedroom, but are fine if they don't.

For the men too number are unknown due to repression. I think that the disconnect for the men is worse then for the women, it is quite something to have your woman ask you to take them by force sexually but to need to tell her no because you can't or wont go there.

I don't know how mainstream this play is, but I do know that it is at least somewhat common due to the numbers of individuals that I have met. I also know that for some the need/desire is so deep that they will do it no matter what the law says.

For the women who need this for real consent is a problem, because every bit of consent takes away from them getting what they crave. Most men will hold out for something along the lines of her saying " Sometime when you want it and I say no, I want you to take me anyway"

Consensual non-consent, it is wanted by both, usually verbally confirmed, and yet if anything goes wrong it will be the guy who is hauled in front of a judge. The woman will be referred to a treatment program as a sexual abuse victim. Such is the state of the law.

Non consensual rape that is not wanted is a abuse of power, it should be criminal.

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I don't think that was what she was asking.

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Chumly wrote:

Of course there is a certain silliness in the first post, and naturally those with rape direct experience could react with emotionalism to the exemption of the big picture. Those can be considered givens.

Nice post overall!

I don't think I'm not getting you, Chumly. I'm sure we differ, but I'm not not understanding. I don't mean that snottily.

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voluntary rape

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