0
   

voluntary rape

 
 
Mame
 
  1  
Fri 28 Mar, 2008 09:02 am
hawkeye10 wrote:
Bella Dea wrote:
fishin, I am not going to argue with you. I simply want less dated information.

And it's pretty obvious none of you have been raped.


However, as men we live our erotic lives with the rape gun held to our head, risk prison time for exploring the erotic. America's willingness to punish sexual deviance in perpetuity with sexual offender tags/laws is a nice extra bonus.


That's ridiculous... "rape gun to your head, risk prison time for exploring the erotic" indeed! Nobody's going to prison for being erotic. Reread Bella Dea's excellent posts on what rape actually is. There is NOTHING erotic about it. As she, and I believe Set, said, rape is about power (and punishment). It's akin to beating a woman with your fists. It sends the same message.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Fri 28 Mar, 2008 09:04 am
Well, Mame, Hawkeye's position might have marginal justification, in that for some men, beating someone to a pulp is an erotic experience. Of course, some people find murder an erotic experience, and we don't allow that, either.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Fri 28 Mar, 2008 09:23 am
Mame wrote:

That's ridiculous... "rape gun to your head, risk prison time for exploring the erotic" indeed! Nobody's going to prison for being erotic. Reread Bella Dea's excellent posts on what rape actually is. There is NOTHING erotic about it. As she, and I believe Set, said, rape is about power (and punishment). It's akin to beating a woman with your fists. It sends the same message.


Rape is the criminalization of sexual power play, but people (men and women in mutual consenting relationships) are going to do it legal or not. You can't separate sex and power. I suppose that there are some people who live their whole life doing nothing but sweet, cooperative, mutually giving sex, but that is a very small slice of what sex is. Most people explore more of who they are through sex, the erotic, even if all of this moralizing and criminalization makes them feel guilty for doing so. Most people also stay very quiet about their more adventurous sex, as obviously it can not be talked about openly in America in 2008.

Some of us are trying to in this thread, but it is of course a lost cause. Thankfully we live in the age of the internet. Those who want to find out more about how people actually live sexually need only to google away. People are more open about the truth of sexuality when they can hide their identity from the moralistic prudes who would attack them.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Fri 28 Mar, 2008 09:30 am
Many people--arguably, most people--are easily able to separate sex from power. It says a lot about anyone who contends that it can't be done, though.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Fri 28 Mar, 2008 09:31 am
Setanta wrote:
Well, Mame, Hawkeye's position might have marginal justification, in that for some men, beating someone to a pulp is an erotic experience. Of course, some people find murder an erotic experience, and we don't allow that, either.


And you know full well that no one is talking about snuff, not even doing something to someone else who does not desire what is being done.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Fri 28 Mar, 2008 09:35 am
Setanta wrote:
Many people--arguably, most people--are easily able to separate sex from power. It says a lot about anyone who contends that it can't be done, though.


Or maybe it says something about those who claim that the two can be separated, as in they don't understand power. For instance, being the victim is a pure power play, but not everyone knows this.

Explaining this stuff to people who have not lived enough is hopeless though, this thread is a lost cause....I'm out.
0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  1  
Fri 28 Mar, 2008 09:36 am
Set, yes, I was going to write that some guys may find raping erotic, but I don't know that erotic is really the right word.

Hack, "Rape is the criminalization of sexual power play"???? It's not play to at least one of them if it's rape.

Here's another one I disagree with: "You can't separate sex and power."

Where in the world are you coming from? Never mind, I don't want to know. We will simply never agree.

Sometimes you write and I think I agree, but then you introduce some twisted concept or phrase as above and I just shake my head again.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Fri 28 Mar, 2008 09:37 am
If people only do with one another sexually those things to which both parties consent freely, without any feeling of compulsion--your sex-power equation collapses.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Fri 28 Mar, 2008 09:37 am
Perhaps of interest and relevance to this thread. Again recall my position on rape is clear.
Quote:
LAW OFFICES OF J. L. SIEGEL
936 Candlelite Drive
San Marcos, CA 92069
760-471-1335 Phone 760-510-1761 Fax
www.militaryjustice.com

Specializing in Military Law


11/30/2007


In re: NEW ARTICLE 120 Rape under the UCMJ

Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines


As of 1 October 2007, following drafting by Congress and subsequent approval by the White House, Article 120 has been significantly modified. It now includes in excess of 30 offenses which all qualify as sexual violations. No only are there new offenses, but offenses such as Indecent Language and Indecent Acts, which used to be under Article 134 will now be under Article 120, Rape

What is most important to remember is that conduct which may be thought of as "innocent" or "a joke" or "unintentional" can be prosecuted. For instance, touching someone on top of his/her clothing on the inner thigh is an offense and can be prosecuted. Using sexually insulting language, exposing one's self, or any sexual touching of a child can be prosecuted.

Rape is no longer gender based and men or women can be prosecuted for rape and can be raped. Placing a person in fear of sexual assault is an offense even if it is not intended as an offense. Also significant is that the new article on rape has removed the element of "without consent" from the list of facts that the government has to initially prove beyond a reasonable doubt. In fact the burden of proof to a preponderance of the evidence is on the DEFENSE to prove that the act was WITH consent. This is an unprecedented change that exists no where else in the UCMJ or in any other jurisdiction in the United States. Once the defense meets its burden of proving the act was with consent, the government gets another chance to prove the act was without consent.

To every service member, the importance of all of these changes is that the moment that he or she becomes aware that someone has complained about conduct, a lawyer should be consulted immediately. Say nothing to anyone. This means, do not talk to friends, SNCO's, OIC's or even spouses or significant others.

All of these people may be able to be compelled to testify against the service member. Finally, keep in mind that if alcohol or drugs were involved during the alleged incident, this may mean that a service member's memory is not accurate. Remain silent and seek legal help. Military lawyers cannot help until formal charges have been preferred. Service members need help before that. Consult a civilian lawyer with military justice experience and help can be obtained much earlier than that. Many civilian military lawyers will provide initial consultation without charging. Call and find out or risk your careers!


J. L. SIEGEL
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Fri 28 Mar, 2008 09:52 am
Again recall my position on rape is clear. It is rational and just to have it criminalized.
Quote:
This website has been created by a concerned mother to increase awareness that women often make false rape charges, destroy the lives and reputations of innocent men, while the false accusers face no repercussions
http://www.falserape.net/index.html The underlying gist being that
Quote:
False rape accusations are not uncommon
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Fri 28 Mar, 2008 09:56 am
Believe what you will:

"In over 40 percent of the cases reviewed, the complainants eventually admitted that no rape had occurred (Archives of Sexual Behavior, Vol. 23, No. 1, 1994)."
Quote:
Research Shows False Accusations of Rape Common
By Marc Angelucci and Glenn Sacks

Despite its many painful and unseemly aspects, the Kobe Bryant rape case and the media storm surrounding it have drawn attention to a severely neglected problem: false rape accusations.

In her recent Daily Journal column, high profile feminist professor Wendy Murphy dismisses the problem of false accusations as an "ugly myth," and calls for "boiling rage" activism to address what she perceives as the anti-woman bias of the criminal justice system. Like many victims' advocates, Murphy cannot seem to fathom the possibility that Bryant could be innocent. However, research shows that false allegations of rape are frighteningly common.

According to a nine-year study conducted by former Purdue sociologist Eugene J. Kanin, in over 40 percent of the cases reviewed, the complainants eventually admitted that no rape had occurred (Archives of Sexual Behavior, Vol. 23, No. 1, 1994). Kanin also studied rape allegations in two large Midwestern universities and found that 50 percent of the allegations were recanted by the accuser.

Kanin found that most of the false accusers were motivated by a need for an alibi or a desire for revenge. Kanin was once well known and lauded by the feminist movement for his groundbreaking research on male sexual aggression. His studies on false rape accusations, however, received very little attention.

Kanin's findings are hardly unique. In 1985 the Air Force conducted a study of 556 rape accusations. Over one quarter of the accusers admitted, either just before they took a lie detector test of after they had failed it, that no rape occurred. A further investigation by independent reviewers found that 60 percent of the original rape allegations were false.

The most common reasons the women gave for falsely accusing rape were "spite or revenge," and to compensate for feelings of guilt or shame (Forensic Science Digest, vol. 11. no. 4, December 1985).

A Washington Post investigation of rape reports in seven Virginia and Maryland counties in 1990 and 1991 found that nearly one in four were unfounded. When contacted by the Post, many of the alleged victims admitted that they had lied.

It is true, of course, that not every accuser who recants had accused falsely. But it is also true that some who do not recant were not telling the truth.

According to a 1996 Department of Justice Report, of the roughly 10,000 sexual assault cases analyzed with DNA evidence over the previous seven years, 2,000 excluded the primary suspect, and another 2,000 were inconclusive. The report notes that these figures mirror an informal National Institute of Justice survey of private laboratories, and suggests that there exists "some strong, underlying systemic problems that generate erroneous accusations and convictions."

Craig Silverman, a former Colorado prosecutor known for his zealous prosecution of rapists during his 16-year career, says that false rape accusations occur with "scary frequency." As a regular commentator on the Bryant trial for Denver's ABC affiliate, Silverman noted that "any honest veteran sex assault investigator will tell you that rape is one of the most falsely reported crimes." According to Silverman, a Denver sex-assault unit commander estimates that nearly half of all reported rape claims are false.

The media has largely ignored these studies and experts and has instead promoted the notion that only 2% of rape allegations are false. This figure was made famous by feminist Susan Brownmiller in her 1975 book Against Our Will: Men, Women and Rape. Brownmiller was relaying the alleged comments of a New York judge concerning the rate of false rape accusations in a New York City police precinct in 1974.

A 1997 Columbia Journalism Review analysis of rape statistics noted that the 2% statistic is often falsely attributed to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and has no clear and credible study to support it. The FBI's statistic for "unfounded" rape accusations is 9%, but this definition only includes cases where the accuser recants or the evidence contradicts her story. Instances where the case is dismissed for lack of evidence are not included in the "unfounded" category. Brownmiller's credibility can be assessed by her assertion in Against Our Will that rape is "nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear."

Murphy also contends that the criminal justice system is stacked against women, and that the law reform initiatives promoted during the past three decades have "failed to make a bit of difference in the justice system's handling of rape cases." In reality, feminist advocacy and the now ubiquitous rape-shield laws have made an enormous difference in the way the system treats rape cases.

Some of these changes have been fair, and have led to greater protections for rape victims. However, others have made it more difficult for men to defend themselves, with at times horrifying consequences for the accused.

For example, in December, the Arkansas Supreme Court denied an appeal by Ralph Taylor, who is serving a 13-year sentence for rape. The court held that evidence of the victim's alleged prior false allegations of rape was inadmissible because it was considered sexual conduct within the meaning of the state's rape shield statute. In that case, the defense proffered the testimony of two friends of the alleged victim, both of whom claimed that she had previously falsely accused another man of raping her. The court added that admitting such evidence could "inflame the jury."

In her book Ceasefire: Why Women and Men Must Join Forces to Achieve True Equality, Boston Globe columnist Cathy Young details numerous questionable rulings in which potentially innocent men were prevented from properly defending themselves by the rape shield laws which Murphy endorses.

One of these cases concerns an 18 year-old Wisconsin boy named Charles Steadman, who in 1993 was sentenced to eight years in prison for allegedly raping an older woman. Steadman was underage when the crime allegedly occurred, but was prohibited from revealing that his accuser was currently facing criminal charges of having sex with minors, and thus had an excellent reason to claim that the sex with Steadman was not consensual. Such evidence was deemed related to his accuser's sexual history and thus inadmissible.

In 1997, sportscaster Marv Albert was accused of assault and battery during a sexual encounter with a woman with whom he had had a 10-year sexual relationship. Albert sought to introduce evidence that his accuser, who had been in a mental hospital six weeks before the alleged assault, had previously made false accusations against men who had left her, as Albert, who was engaged to be married, was planning to do. Albert's offer of proof was denied, compromising his ability to defend himself. Facing a possible life sentence, he chose to plead guilty to misdemeanor assault.

Murphy's dogged attacks on Ruckriegle as a veritable "advocate for the accused" are also without foundation. Far from being a black robed patriarch in league with the defendant, Ruckriegle's rulings were reasonable and, if anything, minimalist. It is not the rulings but the reaction to them by victims' advocates and the media which are worrisome.

For example, Ruckriegle granted a defense motion that Bryant's accuser would not be referred to as "the victim" in court. Such labeling, as opposed to "alleged victim" or "accuser," undermines the presumption of innocence. However, this motion was hotly contested by both the prosecution and by victims' rights organizations, which filed amicus briefs and complained that Ruckriegle's decision created an anti-woman double-standard.

Ruckriegle also allowed Bryant to introduce evidence that his accuser had had other sexual encounters in the 72 hours before her medical examination for the alleged assault. Bryant's defense team contended that the microscopic vaginal injuries the prosecution claimed were suffered in the alleged assault could instead have been the product of various consensual sexual encounters.

Media commentators labeled the 72 hour decision a "bombshell for prosecutors" that "threatens all women," and likened Ruckriegle to a man who has "tiptoed into a minefield."

Murphy is correct that rape is a horrible crime. But false accusations of rape are every bit as horrible. They are a form of psychological rape that can emotionally, socially, and economically destroy a person even if there is no conviction, especially for those of less fame and fortune than Bryant. The stigma attaches to the falsely accused for life. Few believe them and few care. Prosecutors systematically refuse to prosecute the perpetrators. And victims' advocates like Murphy refuse to see falsely accused men as victims, and instead work to minimize and conceal the problem.

This column first appeared in the Los Angeles Daily Journal and San Francisco Daily Journal (9/15/04).

Marc E. Angelucci is a public interest attorney in Los Angeles and is the president of the Los Angeles Chapter of the National Coalition of Free Men.

Glenn Sacks' columns on men's and fathers' issues have appeared in dozens of America's largest newspapers. Glenn can be reached via his website at www.GlennSacks.com or via email at [email protected].
http://www.glennsacks.com/research_shows_false.htm
0 Replies
 
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Fri 28 Mar, 2008 10:04 am
hawkeye, you are an ignorant fool.
0 Replies
 
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Fri 28 Mar, 2008 10:17 am
Chumly wrote:
Believe what you will:

"In over 40 percent of the cases reviewed, the complainants eventually admitted that no rape had occurred (Archives of Sexual Behavior, Vol. 23, No. 1, 1994)." [quote]Research Shows False Accusations of Rape Common
By Marc Angelucci and Glenn Sacks

Despite its many painful and unseemly aspects, the Kobe Bryant rape case and the media storm surrounding it have drawn attention to a severely neglected problem: false rape accusations.

In her recent Daily Journal column, high profile feminist professor Wendy Murphy dismisses the problem of false accusations as an "ugly myth," and calls for "boiling rage" activism to address what she perceives as the anti-woman bias of the criminal justice system. Like many victims' advocates, Murphy cannot seem to fathom the possibility that Bryant could be innocent. However, research shows that false allegations of rape are frighteningly common.

According to a nine-year study conducted by former Purdue sociologist Eugene J. Kanin, in over 40 percent of the cases reviewed, the complainants eventually admitted that no rape had occurred (Archives of Sexual Behavior, Vol. 23, No. 1, 1994). Kanin also studied rape allegations in two large Midwestern universities and found that 50 percent of the allegations were recanted by the accuser.

Kanin found that most of the false accusers were motivated by a need for an alibi or a desire for revenge. Kanin was once well known and lauded by the feminist movement for his groundbreaking research on male sexual aggression. His studies on false rape accusations, however, received very little attention.

Kanin's findings are hardly unique. In 1985 the Air Force conducted a study of 556 rape accusations. Over one quarter of the accusers admitted, either just before they took a lie detector test of after they had failed it, that no rape occurred. A further investigation by independent reviewers found that 60 percent of the original rape allegations were false.

The most common reasons the women gave for falsely accusing rape were "spite or revenge," and to compensate for feelings of guilt or shame (Forensic Science Digest, vol. 11. no. 4, December [b]1985).[/b]

A Washington Post investigation of rape reports in seven Virginia and Maryland counties in 1990 and 1991 found that nearly one in four were unfounded. When contacted by the Post, many of the alleged victims admitted that they had lied.

It is true, of course, that not every accuser who recants had accused falsely. But it is also true that some who do not recant were not telling the truth.

According to a 1996 Department of Justice Report, of the roughly 10,000 sexual assault cases analyzed with DNA evidence over the previous seven years, 2,000 excluded the primary suspect, and another 2,000 were inconclusive. The report notes that these figures mirror an informal National Institute of Justice survey of private laboratories, and suggests that there exists "some strong, underlying systemic problems that generate erroneous accusations and convictions."

Craig Silverman, a former Colorado prosecutor known for his zealous prosecution of rapists during his 16-year career, says that false rape accusations occur with "scary frequency." As a regular commentator on the Bryant trial for Denver's ABC affiliate, Silverman noted that "any honest veteran sex assault investigator will tell you that rape is one of the most falsely reported crimes." According to Silverman, a Denver sex-assault unit commander estimates that nearly half of all reported rape claims are false.

The media has largely ignored these studies and experts and has instead promoted the notion that only 2% of rape allegations are false. This figure was made famous by feminist Susan Brownmiller in her 1975 book Against Our Will: Men, Women and Rape. Brownmiller was relaying the alleged comments of a New York judge concerning the rate of false rape accusations in a New York City police precinct in 1974.

A [b]1997 [/b]Columbia Journalism Review analysis of rape statistics noted that the 2% statistic is often falsely attributed to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and has no clear and credible study to support it. The FBI's statistic for "unfounded" rape accusations is 9%, but this definition only includes cases where the accuser recants or the evidence contradicts her story. Instances where the case is dismissed for lack of evidence are not included in the "unfounded" category. [/b]Brownmiller's credibility can be assessed by her assertion in Against Our Will that rape is "nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear."

Murphy also contends that the criminal justice system is stacked against women, and that the law reform initiatives promoted during the past three decades have "failed to make a bit of difference in the justice system's handling of rape cases." In reality, feminist advocacy and the now ubiquitous rape-shield laws have made an enormous difference in the way the system treats rape cases.

Some of these changes have been fair, and have led to greater protections for rape victims. However, others have made it more difficult for men to defend themselves, with at times horrifying consequences for the accused.

For example, in December, the Arkansas Supreme Court denied an appeal by Ralph Taylor, who is serving a 13-year sentence for rape. The court held that evidence of the victim's alleged prior false allegations of rape was inadmissible because it was considered sexual conduct within the meaning of the state's rape shield statute. In that case, the defense proffered the testimony of two friends of the alleged victim, both of whom claimed that she had previously falsely accused another man of raping her. The court added that admitting such evidence could "inflame the jury."

In her book Ceasefire: Why Women and Men Must Join Forces to Achieve True Equality, Boston Globe columnist Cathy Young details numerous questionable rulings in which potentially innocent men were prevented from properly defending themselves by the rape shield laws which Murphy endorses.

One of these cases concerns an 18 year-old Wisconsin boy named Charles Steadman, who in 1993 was sentenced to eight years in prison for allegedly raping an older woman. Steadman was underage when the crime allegedly occurred, but was prohibited from revealing that his accuser was currently facing criminal charges of having sex with minors, and thus had an excellent reason to claim that the sex with Steadman was not consensual. Such evidence was deemed related to his accuser's sexual history and thus inadmissible.

In 1997, sportscaster Marv Albert was accused of assault and battery during a sexual encounter with a woman with whom he had had a 10-year sexual relationship. Albert sought to introduce evidence that his accuser, who had been in a mental hospital six weeks before the alleged assault, had previously made false accusations against men who had left her, as Albert, who was engaged to be married, was planning to do. Albert's offer of proof was denied, compromising his ability to defend himself. Facing a possible life sentence, he chose to plead guilty to misdemeanor assault.

Murphy's dogged attacks on Ruckriegle as a veritable "advocate for the accused" are also without foundation. Far from being a black robed patriarch in league with the defendant, Ruckriegle's rulings were reasonable and, if anything, minimalist. It is not the rulings but the reaction to them by victims' advocates and the media which are worrisome.

For example, Ruckriegle granted a defense motion that Bryant's accuser would not be referred to as "the victim" in court. Such labeling, as opposed to "alleged victim" or "accuser," undermines the presumption of innocence. However, this motion was hotly contested by both the prosecution and by victims' rights organizations, which filed amicus briefs and complained that Ruckriegle's decision created an anti-woman double-standard.

Ruckriegle also allowed Bryant to introduce evidence that his accuser had had other sexual encounters in the 72 hours before her medical examination for the alleged assault. Bryant's defense team contended that the microscopic vaginal injuries the prosecution claimed were suffered in the alleged assault could instead have been the product of various consensual sexual encounters.

Media commentators labeled the 72 hour decision a "bombshell for prosecutors" that "threatens all women," and likened Ruckriegle to a man who has "tiptoed into a minefield."

Murphy is correct that rape is a horrible crime. But false accusations of rape are every bit as horrible. They are a form of psychological rape that can emotionally, socially, and economically destroy a person even if there is no conviction, especially for those of less fame and fortune than Bryant. The stigma attaches to the falsely accused for life. Few believe them and few care. Prosecutors systematically refuse to prosecute the perpetrators. And victims' advocates like Murphy refuse to see falsely accused men as victims, and instead work to minimize and conceal the problem.

This column first appeared in the Los Angeles Daily Journal and San Francisco Daily Journal (9/15/04).

Marc E. Angelucci is a public interest attorney in Los Angeles and is the president of the Los Angeles Chapter of the National Coalition of Free Men.

Glenn Sacks' columns on men's and fathers' issues have appeared in dozens of America's largest newspapers. Glenn can be reached via his website at www.GlennSacks.com or via email at [email protected].
http://www.glennsacks.com/research_shows_false.htm[/quote]


I want you to note the bolded dates. These are 10 years old or older. Technology and forensic science have come so far in 10 years. I'd like to see statistics that are not as dated.

As well, please read the bolded paragraph that states only 9% of all cases are false.

That's 9 women out of 100. While unacceptable for those 9 men, not nearly as horrific as the 91 women who really were raped.
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Fri 28 Mar, 2008 10:21 am
Chumly, I once tried to have a discussion about the gray areas of rape, and found that it is a topic that is impossible to discuss rationally. The word itself conjures up too many emotions, it seems. I commend you for trying, but I feel that you will inevitably be shouted down by emotion and fear.

Good luck though. Carry on.
0 Replies
 
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Fri 28 Mar, 2008 10:21 am
Sorry...had to go back and make it colored since the bold didn't show.


Also, it doesn't say that all those false accusations resulted in incarceration of the men. It just says the women said "He raped me" and then recanted.

The recant could have been due to no rape occuring OR it could be because of threats. Or fear. Or guilt. Or shame.

Have you ever dealt with rape survivors? Talked to anyone who has been raped?

I think you'd do yourself some good by educating yourself a little more on the profound effects rape has on a woman.
0 Replies
 
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Fri 28 Mar, 2008 10:26 am
This discussion isn't about the "grey areas of rape". It's about the ridiculous idea that there is somehow a voluntary aspect in some rapes.

And then turned to the topic of false accusations which further perpetuates the myth that a woman who has been raped is a liar, asked for it, wanted it, or otherwise deserved it. It makes real rape survivors afraid to come forward for fear of persecution.

I don't doubt that there are cases where men are sent to prision for raping someone they didn't rape. But there are also cases of men sent to prision for a murder they didn't commit. The system is flawed.

It's not acceptable but no one has even tried to come up with a way to reduce the number of incorrect rape convictions.
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Fri 28 Mar, 2008 10:41 am
Re: voluntary rape
Really? It's not about grey areas? Aren't these examples, from Chumly's original post, talking about a grey area?

Quote:
Suppose you are drunk. Heavily. And somehow you end up with a man. He is also drunk. You hardly know what you are doing. The two of you have sex. The next morning you regret you did. So was it rape? Did that man take advantage of you? Some might state that you have been raped. But when he was drunk as well, isn't this just something that happens? Something you may dislike to have done, but in the end isn't such a big deal?

Or what if you weren't drunk? What if you went home with a guy perfectly sober with the intention to have a one night stand. You start making out and know it's soon going to happen. However, suddenly you don't really feel like it. To avoid an awkward situation you decide to have sex anyway. Is it rape or not? The man can't help it that you refrain from telling him to stop in this particular situation, or could he?

Another issue comes along when you are in a relationship. Suppose you don't really feel like having sex, but your partner really wants to? You don't tell him you're not feeling up to it, but you just let him have his way. It doesn't hurt, although it's against your true will. Is it rape?


Sounds like some grey area to me. Anyway, gotta go. Enjoy.
0 Replies
 
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Fri 28 Mar, 2008 10:47 am
Re: voluntary rape
kickycan wrote:
Really? It's not about grey areas? Aren't these examples, from Chumly's original post, talking about a grey area?


Quote:
Suppose you are drunk. Heavily. And somehow you end up with a man. He is also drunk. You hardly know what you are doing. The two of you have sex. The next morning you regret you did. So was it rape? Did that man take advantage of you? Some might state that you have been raped. But when he was drunk as well, isn't this just something that happens? Something you may dislike to have done, but in the end isn't such a big deal?
Not rape. Key word, "hardly" know what you are doing. Still has control over decision to have sex or not.

Quote:

Or what if you weren't drunk? What if you went home with a guy perfectly sober with the intention to have a one night stand. You start making out and know it's soon going to happen. However, suddenly you don't really feel like it. To avoid an awkward situation you decide to have sex anyway. Is it rape or not? The man can't help it that you refrain from telling him to stop in this particular situation, or could he?
Not rape. The man did not know you didn't want to have sex. If at any time you said "no, I don't want to do this anymore", and he continued it would become rape.

Quote:

Another issue comes along when you are in a relationship. Suppose you don't really feel like having sex, but your partner really wants to? You don't tell him you're not feeling up to it, but you just let him have his way. It doesn't hurt, although it's against your true will. Is it rape?


Nope, not rape again. Allowing someone to have sex with you is consent. If you didn't want to do it, said you didn't want to do it and meant it, and he forced you to do it, husband or not, he raped you. Is it something you should report to the police? Maybe, maybe not.

Quote:

Sounds like some grey area to me. Anyway, gotta go. Enjoy.


None of these are grey areas. All contain situations of consentual sex.
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Fri 28 Mar, 2008 11:01 am
I agree, Bella. I wasn't actually saying that YOU would go insane with irrational rage at the mere mention of the word (you are pretty much always rational and sensible, as far as I can tell), but there are many who would, and this is why I shy away from any discussion that involves rape.

Ciao, Bellissima
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Fri 28 Mar, 2008 11:44 am
Bella Dea wrote:
I want you to note the bolded dates. These are 10 years old or older. Technology and forensic science have come so far in 10 years. I'd like to see statistics that are not as dated.

As well, please read the bolded paragraph that states only 9% of all cases are false.

That's 9 women out of 100. While unacceptable for those 9 men, not nearly as horrific as the 91 women who really were raped.
Your vague reference to an arbitrary period of time has not been shown to have consequential relevance, as such you counter is dismissed.

I suggest they are relevant in the context referred to and you have provided no argument as to why they should not be considered relevant in the context referred to.
0 Replies
 
 

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