The Lefty Boom

Hey perc, I feel like joining your side. Thing is, you'd have to drop that part about foresign criticism. As a stout conservative it makes it hard for me to criticize all those evil nations without cringing at the duplicity.

Then of course there is the last resort option-----taking our troops out of South Korea----------------until NK attacks South Korea thinking that we won't come back.

Craven

I'd love to have you on my side but my principles are not negotiable.

As I have said before and everybody cringes----nations do not have friends like people. Nations only have diplomatic encounters with potential adversaries so if we keep that in mind we will be less likely to be placed in an embarrassing position. I don't consider this arrogant---just a fact of global reality.

Please clarify----criticizing all the those evil nations
and all the duplicity? I just want to make certain we are on the same frequency.

perc,

You were talking about listening to foresigners here criticizing America.

If that is a principle it's based in duplicity. Can't we just share the military agression principle?

Awwwww, Perception, Australia is America's friend - we come to all your parties and everything!

(Sorry - woke up sharp-tongued - coffee will blunt it)

Perception - just a quick word re nasty foreigners criticizing the US.

I have said, ad nauseum, that you guys, standing as tall as you do in the world, attract lots of just plain silly criticism - but, being the superpower you are, and your actions and policies having the effect round the world that they do - the rest of us do have the right to comment on and critique the actions of the US, I believe - and to attempt to influence them. Just as your government, and people, have the right to hold views on other countries - and as your government reserves the right to attempt to influence the policies of other nations - or do you deny that it does so?

I agree with dlowan. This is no longer a world in which one nation's actions don't affect another others. A criticism of America does not mean ill will necessarily. I'm impressed and have been surprised by the sentiment around the world about the U.S. And maybe I'm not so offended by it because I agree with it. Americans need to clean up their act.

However, I agree with Perc as well, and Timber and whoever else. We're not all bad. Far from it. And we should be proud of our position of power and use it responsibly. If we don't, we'll share an unusally large bit of the blame when things go wrong. And they're going horribly wrong right now. We need to wake up and listen to our friends from other nations.

Man -- I go away for a few hours into the big city, come back, and find the loyal opposition has gone and captured the flag and planted it in the right place. Butrfly, your list is wonderful. As for the rest of you loyal opposition -- and Walter! -- proud of you!

Meanwhile Kerry announced his candidacy today, talked about bold leadership while following doggedly, desperately, in Dean's footsteps. Didn't sound good... He may get a medal for followership at best...

There's something ridiculous about claims of the Left moving away from the Center in a time that we are "enjoying" one of the most revolutionary Republican governments in a century. In just three years' time, this administration has made drastic breaks with a range of traditions in domestic and international policy, that generations of "traditional" conservatives will feel most uneasy with.

The proselytising, messianistic change-the-world-by-force neoconservatism is in many ways the negation of cnservatism itself - rejecting the respect for established traditions for their own sake that gave conservatives their name, and rejecting the laconic, common-sense scepticism that conservatives traditionally pride themselves on when contrasting themselves to the change-everything idealism of the Left.

If you see ever more people flocking to the strident anger in the voice of Dean -
(an anger that, by the way, inspires his tone and appeal, but not his programme, which in itself should be repudiation enough of the "loony left" counter-rhetorics) -
if they rally around his indignation, its because they've seen the Bush Jr. administration radicalise their country's politics and international behavior into reckless extremism. Its not Dean who's far out from the Center - its your very government. No wonder people rally to defend sanity.

Take the simple quiz: how many developed countries can you name that are more to the right than the US.

Israel?

Definitely.

Good point, Craven.

Timber -- I admire your writing and your intentions, but I think you're way, way off-base. Agree with Nimh wholeheartedly. As so many of us keep saying, the right is no longer conservative. It has become radical and -- Nimh is right -- messianic.

I'm beginning to think you and Perception have -- in very different ways -- lost touch with what "center" and "left" mean. But most of all, we are all using meaningless labels. That is never so clear as when the righties (who don't deserve the term "conservative") call Dean a lefty. If they're smart, they don't really mean it. But if they mean it, they've got their heads... well, you know...

Russia.

I disagree on that.

When I look at a world map I see that Bermuda is to the right of the US. As well as all of Europe, and Africa.

Curious, how so?

No-oo!

Heh. That was an utter instinctive reaction. <grins>. Sorry 'bout that.

I am very strongly in favour of leftists making sure they're the first to pick up on what is wrong in their own 'back garden'. I'd expect the same from rightists. Keeps politics a lot more sane and safe. (Hell, I got positively tired of hearing myself turn against fellow-leftists on this board the last week or two ...)



When did Iraq threaten to attack the US?

Yes, I know that some in the Bush admin still believe that Saddam harbored terrorists in his country (Anwar al-Islam) - even if it was in a part of the country he didnt actually control (i.e., the Kurdish-controlled North, sheltered by the US/UN-imposed no-fly zones) - who in turn worked together with terrorists, who did threaten the US ... but by then, I think, we're talking more about "six handshakes away"-kind of logic. So, back to basics: when did Iraq threaten a 'first strike' against the US?

Ireland? Their main two parties are both on the right.

Russia - all depends on how you measure. More authoritarian, but also more egalitarian. Authoritarian is usually considered right-wing, egalitarian left-wing. <shrugs>

Things are goin to hell in a wheelbarrow-----I would like to restate my question to everyone. It seems that everyone is reluctant to take their turn in the barrel and only want to carp about incidentals:

"what are the outer limits of "Left" or Right as they go over the edge into extremism. And then is that extremism dangerous or not". What is acceptable to you left or right?

Craven: I believe it is only fair that you state your position relative to what is acceptable up to the point of extremism on both sides

The center has nothing to do with anything-----it's the position of extremism left or right of center that matters IMO