55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 06:21 pm
@old europe,
You are probably right about greater sensitivity towards the offenses of the opposition. However, the example you chose misses the point. That wasn't directed at domestic political opponents, rather it was aimed our friends in "Old Europe" who by than had thoroughly recovered from from their unusual and brief experience of solidarity with America.
old europe
 
  3  
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 07:32 pm
@georgeob1,
You might have a point about the intended audience. Which would probably lend itself to an interesting discussion about which groups of voters are more sensitive in regard to offensive Presidential rhetoric, depending on whether the offended party consists of a domestic opposition or of an international audience.

However, since the above statement was made in a speech to a joint session of Congress on September 20th 2001, I would disagree with your assessment that European nations were already beyond the point of demonstrating solidarity with America at that time.
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 07:37 pm
@old europe,
old europe wrote:

However, since the above statement was made in a speech to a joint session of Congress on September 20th 2001, I would disagree with your assessment that European nations were already beyond the point of demonstrating solidarity with America at that time.


Well, that was nine whole days ... a long time for them, particularly with such an unfamiliar emotion. Don't forget that the Cold war was already over, and the bright new age of European perfection was already at hand.

Don't forget that the Bosnian experience hadn't yet been forgotten.
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 07:57 pm
@plainoldme,
Quote:
Until American accepts its personal responsibility for the economy, the environment and for its greed, this country will continue to slide backwards into third world status


Since the worlds economies are inertwined, America does not deserve the blame alone.

As for the environment, how is the US responsible for decisions other countries do or do not make concerning the environment?
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  -4  
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 08:10 pm
@old europe,
old europe wrote:
If he was indeed demonizing business, you should be able to come up with an example of Obama actually doing so. If he was appointing Marxists, you should be able to point out how someone he appointed actually is a Marxist.

This forum is chocked full of examples that have been pointed out time and again.
plainoldme
 
  2  
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 08:25 pm
@okie,
Haven't you caught on that the only person here who sees Marxists and Communists everywhere is you? You never once told us what a Marxist or a Communist is . . . to you. We need to read your unique to you definition.
old europe
 
  2  
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 08:36 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
Well, that was nine whole days ... a long time for them, particularly with such an unfamiliar emotion. Don't forget that the Cold war was already over, and the bright new age of European perfection was already at hand.

Don't forget that the Bosnian experience hadn't yet been forgotten.

Quite true, the Bosnian experience hadn't yet been forgotten. See, that's maybe the reason why even the Social Democratic/Green administration decided to participate with the third largest ISAF contingent in Afghanistan.

You may argue that that's not good enough, that more could have been done; but then again, I also remember that you used to argue that invading Iraq was a sound strategical move.
okie
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 08:58 pm
@plainoldme,
plainoldme wrote:

Haven't you caught on that the only person here who sees Marxists and Communists everywhere is you? You never once told us what a Marxist or a Communist is . . . to you. We need to read your unique to you definition.

This is not a difficult question, and you should already know the answer. To summarize very quickly, Marxism, communism, ultra socialism, Fascism, there are many different brands that have been envisioned and tried, but all have some utopian vision, wherein the all powerful State does away with class struggle and everyone is taken care of and live happily ever after, to each according to their need, blah blah blah. You can study the particular brands as promoted by Karl Marx, Engels, Lennin, Stalin, Chairman Mao, and others. Also, Hitler and Mussolini had sort of their own nationalistic brands of ultra - socialism as well, known as Fascism, wherein they demonized capitalism and had designs of the almighty government dictating all economic activity so that everything and everyone were taken care of. Of course, the losers in all of these examples are freedom, liberty, and the free markets of a more pure capitalistic system.

We are now seeing first hand in this country an administration that has little or no confidence in the free market and business to succeed and to provide for our well being and needs as we have always done. Instead, the government is seeking to take more control over our lives in many many ways. The medical industry is but one example of what will be coming down the pike, and more will be, unless the political winds blow a huge loss to the Democrats this coming fall election.
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 09:18 pm
@old europe,
I did indeed. I had hoped that we could establish a functioning secular government in Iraq with a degree of democracy and personal freedom - a first in the Arab/moslem world, and in a state that, owing to its history appeared uniquely able to prosper with a modern government. I imagined that this could be a beneficial example in a Moslem world that (apart from Indonesia) has no non-authoritarian models of governance.

Only later I realized that we would likely have been bettter off had we never disturbed Saddam at all after he took Kuwait. The poor guy was broke after the long war with Iran, and the territory of Kuwait historically was governed from Bagdad anyway - at least until the British drew convenient borders around the first major oil discoveries, desiring a compact, easily controlled, oil rich protectorate. We would have enjoyed an interesting balance of power in the Gulf with a now rich secular dictator sitting on the back of a Sunni/Shia Arab/Kurd population, separating a fanatic Shia theocracy in Farsi-speaking Iran and a Sunni autocracy in Saudi Arabia. They would have spent all their energy looking over their sholders at each other, and, as an added bonus, with just a little stoking, the war between a refreshed and rearmed Iraq and Iran could have resumed.

It would have been a better world.
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 09:28 pm
@old europe,
old europe wrote:

georgeob1 wrote:
Don't forget that the Bosnian experience hadn't yet been forgotten.

Quite true, the Bosnian experience hadn't yet been forgotten. See, that's maybe the reason why even the Social Democratic/Green administration decided to participate with the third largest ISAF contingent in Afghanistan.


Perhaps third largest, but clearly the least active, worst motivated, and rather ineffective, locked up as they are in their enclaves and operating under some rather strange, politically imposed, rules of engagement.
old europe
 
  2  
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 09:56 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
Perhaps third largest, but clearly the least active, worst motivated, and rather ineffective, locked up as they are in their enclaves and operating under some rather strange, politically imposed, rules of engagement.

If that was the case, it would be pretty much in line with the public enthusiasm for military interventionism.

I reckon the current course of action is really just a reflection of several administrations trying to cause the least offence by seizing the middle ground between British fears of a Fourth Reich and American accusations of being utterly useless.
georgeob1
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 10:14 pm
@old europe,
We all face various contradictions of our political histories and situations. In general it is easier to be more sensitive of your own issues in this area than the other guy's - just as one is more sensitive to an opponent's hypocrisy than one's own. In addition to this, which affects us all more or less equally, the leader in any undertaking is more vulnerable in these areas precisely because his warts and failings are there in the spotlight for all to see, while others bask in relative anonymity. Europeans appear to have a hard time understanding this ...
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 10:41 pm
@georgeob1,
It is interesting (to me at least) to note that we appear to have learned different lessons from our conmmon experience of WWII - each perhaps the consequence of our different histories. Europeans learned, 'No more war'. America learned, 'No more authoritarian tyrants'. We still don't understand each other.
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 May, 2010 07:58 am
@okie,
Don't tell me what I can study . . . I have a degree in political science. I went on to study two other fields but returned to my 'roots,' so to speak when I wrote a thesis on a political subject that fueled a literary convention.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 May, 2010 08:01 am
@okie,
But the free market is an economic and not a political theory.

And other than saying that you think that all of those -isms are alike in being utopian and classless . . . neither of which is bad and both of which can also be applied to democracy . . .you haven't answered my question. Although your confusion of an economic theory as part of a political philosophy package does indicate where you're coming from.
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 May, 2010 08:02 am
@georgeob1,
No government should be imposed from without . . . and that is the crux of the problem with Iraq.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  0  
Reply Sat 8 May, 2010 09:08 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

It is interesting (to me at least) to note that we appear to have learned different lessons from our conmmon experience of WWII - each perhaps the consequence of our different histories. Europeans learned, 'No more war'. America learned, 'No more authoritarian tyrants'. We still don't understand each other.

Interesting statement, George, and it indeed does seem to match the feelings I get from my relatives in Europe (Denmark). The oldest during our last visit said to me in those words "no more war." They seem to be focused upon being just tired of war, maybe to the point of not being quite as totally engaged over what could happen otherwise. Perhaps they would change their mind if they clearly saw the downside of the alternative, but the level of willingness to fight against potential evil, such as authoritarian tyrants, seems to have worn down.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 May, 2010 09:17 am
@plainoldme,
plainoldme wrote:

But the free market is an economic and not a political theory.

It is both in my opinion. You cannot separate economic and political systems, as they overlap.

Quote:
And other than saying that you think that all of those -isms are alike in being utopian and classless . . . neither of which is bad and both of which can also be applied to democracy . . .you haven't answered my question. Although your confusion of an economic theory as part of a political philosophy package does indicate where you're coming from.

Interesting statement, but I hope you realize utopian and classless is a virtual impossibility on earth with humankind, pom. This point alone is a prime indicator of why leftists do not understand human nature and do not reside in reality. I think something in peoples childhoods, and I documented this on the dictator thread about ruthless dictators, they had very dysfunctional families and childhoods, and as a result they end up having a very twisted mindset that desires to right the wrongs of the world, perhaps as a result of what they experienced as children.

And in summary, if you have studied political philosophy, I would think that you especially should realize economic system is a primary part of political system. If you do not, it only adds to the confirmation of your total lack of understanding reality. After all, political freedom requires economic freedom.
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 May, 2010 11:28 am
@okie,
But everything you write is filtered through an extreme conservatism. Were my father to meet you, he might say that both your arms on the right side of your body, which is one of his descriptions of righties.

You also reject any form of authority. You hold yourself as a standard but you are close to alone even here on a forum that does not ask for a political stance as a condition of membership. In other words, you make yourself the measure of all things.

And, politics and economics are two different disciplines. The basic types of each can be and have been combined in different ways. here, however, I will thank you for once saying that it is your opinion and not the way of the world as you often do.

I think that as a person who rejects Newsweek as a left biased publication, you have no right to be taken seriously when you say that the left has no concept of human nature. The right sourly expresses a rather dim view of human nature and seems to always say that human progress in spiritual and intellectual terms is impossible. The left constantly works toward human improvement. You are probably unaware of the fact that the early labor union movement also produced group studies and workshops. One example is the Saturday Evening Girls who met in Boston and made pottery among other things. These working class young women, many of whom were immigrants, had a higher rate of college attendance than women from any other social strata.

Furthermore, the left is generally better educated than the right. That can be documented.

People often overcome their miserable childhoods but such childhoods just as frequently destroy individuals. One seldom knows what the toss of the coin produces. Just remember that you do not view things from a complete spectrum.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 May, 2010 11:32 am
@okie,
Quote:
And in summary, if you have studied political philosophy


I must admit that it's funny to see you say this, as you yourself have undertaken no serious studies of political philosophy and regularly claim to know more than those of us who have.

Cycloptichorn
 

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