55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 May, 2010 09:39 pm
@okie,
But we should blame America, blame the seven or so lobbyists that block the feelings of the American people from reaching THEIR duly elected representatives . . . and I write that after having watched last night's The Daily Show which featured a video montage of all the different ways Congressmen quote the will of the American people! All of them were contradictory.

Speaking of contradictions, Obama has been civil. However, I can't help but notice that you can not forgive him for Jeremiah Wright, a person Obama dissed but aren't you among the posters here asking the left to stop blaming bush for the economy?

Until American accepts its personal responsibility for the economy, the environment and for its greed, this country will continue to slide backwards into third world status.
old europe
 
  2  
Reply Thu 6 May, 2010 11:40 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:
It would have been nice if Obama would have adopted civility a very long time ago. Instead he admired people like Jeremiah Wright that spewed hatred and blame onto America, and it was obvious that Obama shared much of those beliefs. He also has been friends with folks like Bill Ayers, who had at one time sought to overthrow the country, now that is not much civility, is it oe?

Guilt by association. It's a logical fallacy.
okie
 
  0  
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 08:49 am
@old europe,
old europe wrote:

okie wrote:
It would have been nice if Obama would have adopted civility a very long time ago. Instead he admired people like Jeremiah Wright that spewed hatred and blame onto America, and it was obvious that Obama shared much of those beliefs. He also has been friends with folks like Bill Ayers, who had at one time sought to overthrow the country, now that is not much civility, is it oe?

Guilt by association. It's a logical fallacy.

How many times do we have to explain the obvious? When the association is strong and long lasting, it means a mountain of information. Only the blind or emotionally attached to that same association would deny it.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 10:48 am
@old europe,
old europe wrote:

Guilt by association. It's a logical fallacy.


Strictly speaking that is not true. There was no sylogism involved here.

It is certainly a deceptive or at best inadequate argument to establish guilt or any other conclusion. However it is not without potential meaning or significance. In the specific cases cited, the association with Wright appears to contradict a core element of Obama's presentation of himself to the American public. I agree that it doesn't prove he accepts all of Wright's racist nonsense. However it does demonstrate that he was not sufficiently offended by it to disassociate himself from it during more than of a decade of association with the esteemed "religious" figure.
Diest TKO
 
  5  
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 11:12 am
@georgeob1,
If Obama would have at any point in his political career had put forth any sort of racist agenda, you might have a leg to stand on, but otherwise there isn't any real reason to consider the association to be anything.

E.g. - Wright says "God damn America!" and the country goes into a fury! An association is put forth between Obama and Wright. The implication of which is that if they are close they must share similar sentiments. So when Wright says "God damn America!" it is in essence Obama saying it. To believe this kind of thing, you'd have to insulate yourself from anything that Obama says, and when he says "God Bless America," you must force yourself to believe him a liar on no real basis whatsoever.

I'm sure when the Enron conspiracy flared up, you damned Bush just as much.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  2  
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 12:41 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
Strictly speaking that is not true. There was no sylogism involved here.

I'd argue that there was.

After all, this was not, in any way, a discussion about the relationship between Obama and Wright or Ayers. This was okie accusing Obama of "launching attacks against the people because he does not like this country" in his speech at the University of Michigan. When I pointed out that Obama had, in fact, argued for a basic level of civility, had criticized both the left and the right and made the point that over-the-top rhetoric only closes the door to the possibility of compromise, okie essentially countered "but Obama had a relationship with Wright and Ayers".

That's a classical case of guilt by association.
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 01:42 pm
@old europe,
No argument there. However, in reading Obama's admirable remarks at the University of Michigan graduation, one should also recall his gratuitous (and arguably dangerous) trashing of the assembled Justices of our Supreme Court (an independent branch of our government) during his State of the Union speech to Congress because of a decision they were obliged to make, that he didn't happen to agree with. One could also recall his several prejudicial categorizations of those who don't happen to agree with him on a host of topical issues. Politics is a rough game for everyone, but our current president has amply revealed himself as unusually inclined to malign the motives of his opponents,

While his words at the Michigan commencement were indeed a cut above the norm, so was his hypocrisy in delivering them.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 01:52 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Politics is a rough game for everyone, but our current president has amply revealed himself as unusually inclined to malign the motives of his opponents.


Oh, come now. 'unusually?' I'm sure I could find a string of statements from any number of elected Republicans which would make any of Obama's statements pale in comparison.

I'm sure I don't have to remind you of the terms 'Bush Hater' 'Anti-American' and 'surrender monkey' that were thrown around quite gratuitously by your side during the heyday of Republican dominance, now do I?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 02:13 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
one should also recall his gratuitous (and arguably dangerous) trashing of the assembled Justices of our Supreme Court

trashing?

wow.. that's an odd choice of words george. Do you really think Obama's words were such that he "trashed" the Justices?

This is what Obama said by the way..

Quote:
With all due deference to separation of powers, last week the Supreme Court reversed a century of law that I believe will open the floodgates for special interests "- including foreign corporations "- to spend without limit in our elections. (Applause.) I don't think American elections should be bankrolled by America's most powerful interests, or worse, by foreign entities. (Applause.) They should be decided by the American people. And I'd urge Democrats and Republicans to pass a bill that helps to correct some of these problems.


I'm sorry but I don't see Obama "trashing" any Justices in that statement.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  0  
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 03:08 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

old europe wrote:

Guilt by association. It's a logical fallacy.


Strictly speaking that is not true. There was no sylogism involved here.

It is certainly a deceptive or at best inadequate argument to establish guilt or any other conclusion. However it is not without potential meaning or significance. In the specific cases cited, the association with Wright appears to contradict a core element of Obama's presentation of himself to the American public. I agree that it doesn't prove he accepts all of Wright's racist nonsense. However it does demonstrate that he was not sufficiently offended by it to disassociate himself from it during more than of a decade of association with the esteemed "religious" figure.

Obviously correct, George. And we all know, although libs would not admit it, if George Bush had sat in a pew for 20 years listening and approving of racist rants, the man would have been hounded until he would have dropped out of the running for president. Associations do mean a great deal, a very great deal, when the associations are many and strong. Anyone that studied the church that Wright headed would also know that the entire belief system of the church was based upon something called Black Liberation Theology, which has a very strong vector of Marxist principles involved. And then add to the associations the many appointments to czar positions and other positions, people that have expressed Marxist beliefs. And Wright's Marxist sympathies also involve a very strong component of racial and ethnic bias, the hatred of Jews and rich Whites and capitalists, not only that, a seeming hatred of ones own country, the United States.

Alot of this is history now, it was swept under the rug, and libs continue to try to downplay it and ridicule anyone that brings it up, such as me - okie, but the fact is that all of that did happen and it is till just as pertinent as it ever was, because it provides a very big window into the soul and mindset of our president, although many still refuse to acknowledge it. I am not however going to quit talking about it because it is incumbent upon us as a country to wake up and sweep these losers out of office in every future election. The honest and those with courage to face the truth, and those that love this country and freedom more than some leftist agenda, will rise up and go vote the right way, vote conservative and vote Republican.
parados
 
  3  
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 03:18 pm
@okie,
Quote:
Obviously correct, George. And we all know, although libs would not admit it, if George Bush had sat in a pew for 20 years listening and approving of racist rants, the man would have been hounded until he would have dropped out of the running for president. Associations do mean a great deal, a very great deal, when the associations are many and strong

So.. are you arguing that Bush's association with drunks and 20 years of drinking should have invalidated his Presidency? Bush was ACTUALLY a drunk, didn't just spend times with drunks.
ican711nm
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 03:23 pm
Quote:

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=19307&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=DPD
TIME TO JUNK THE CORPORATE TAX

President Obama has put tax reform on the agenda, but surprisingly little attention is being paid to fixing the most growth-inhibiting, anticompetitive tax of all: the corporate income tax. Reducing or eliminating the corporate tax would curtail numerous wasteful tax distortions, boost growth in both the short and long run, increase America's global competitiveness, and raise future wages, says Michael J. Boskin, a professor of economics at Stanford University and a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution.

The United States has the second-highest corporate income tax rate of any advanced economy (39 percent including state taxes, 50 percent higher than the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) average).

Many major competitors, Germany and Canada among them, have reduced their corporate tax rate, rendering American companies less competitive globally.

Of course, various credits and deductions -- such as for depreciation and interest -- reduce the effective corporate tax rate. But netting everything, our corporate tax severely retards and misaligns investment, problems that will only get worse as more and more capital becomes internationally mobile. Corporate income is taxed a second time at the personal level as dividends or those capital gains attributable to reinvestment of the retained earnings of the corporation. Between the new taxes in the health reform law and the expiration of the Bush tax cuts, these rates are soon set to explode, says Boskin.

This complex array of taxes on corporate income produces a series of biases and distortions, the most important is the bias against capital formation, decreasing the overall level of investment and therefore future labor productivity and wages, says Boskin.

Reducing or eliminating the negative effects of the corporate tax on investment would increase real gross domestic product and future wages significantly, says Boskin. Junking both the corporate and personal income taxes and replacing them with a broad revenue-neutral consumption tax would produce even larger gains. Nobel Laureate Robert Lucas concluded that implementing such reforms would deliver great benefits at little cost, making it "the largest genuinely true free lunch I have seen."

Source: Michael J. Boskin, "Time to Junk the Corporate Tax," Wall Street Journal, May 6, 2010.
okie
 
  2  
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 03:36 pm
@parados,
Leave it to Parados to argue the illogical. Parados, if Bush had sat in a pew listening and approving of somebody espousing the virtues of being drunk, of drinking oneself to death, then yes, I think Bush would be a bit nuts as well.

But you are comparing apples and oranges when you try to compare taking a drink with harboring racist, anti-American, and anti-freedom/capitalistic philosophy. If you wish to go there, we are also aware of Obama's dabbling with drugs in his past, and although I am not wildly enthusiastic about past drug use, I would not consider that to be a problem anywhere near as serious as Obama's foundational belief system. I am not holding it against Obama either for his inability to kick his smoking habit, but I do think it does show a character weakness, just as drinking may indicate a character weakness, however I think that Bush had largely overcome his drinking problem a long time ago.

Bottom line, we must first look at a person's foundational beliefs about freedom, about the country, about capitalism, and about just common sense. In those areas, Obama flunks with an F straight across the board.
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 03:40 pm
@parados,
Bush gave up his alcoholism and his association with drunks.

Obama instead of giving up his association with followers of Saul Alinsky, brought them into his administration.

Saul Alinsky wrote:
The revolutionary’s purpose is to undermine the system by taking from the haves and giving it to the have-nots, and then see what happens;
The radical organizer does not have a fixed truth"truth to him is relative and changing; everything to him is relative and changing;
Radicals should be political relativists and should take an agnostic view of means and ends;
The radical is not a reformer of the system but its would-be destroyer;
The most basic principle for radicals is lie to opponents and disarm them by pretending to be moderates and liberals;
The issue is always the revolution;
The stated cause is never the real cause, but only an occasion to advance the real cause which is accumulation of power to make the revolution;
The radical is building his own kingdom, a kingdom of heaven on earth.



0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 03:42 pm
@ican711nm,
Is that really a piece by Boskin in which he quotes "Boskin" as a source?
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  4  
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 03:43 pm
@okie,
Right...
Someone is far more dangerous if they listen to something rather than do it.

And you call me illogical?
okie
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 03:52 pm
@parados,
You seem to be out of the loop of the news, parados, Obama is practicing what Wright preached, demonizing business, appointing Marxists to his administration, and so on and so forth.

And we aren't talking about taking a drink, we are talking about undermining the foundational principles of the United State of America. I think that is pretty bad for a president to be engaged in. I hope enough people wake up by the next election so that we can turn the tide on your ilk, parados.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 04:05 pm
@okie,
Quote:
You seem to be out of the loop of the news, parados, Obama is practicing what Wright preached, demonizing business, appointing Marxists to his administration, and so on and so forth.

And yet when asked you can't point to anything specific. You only have your "suspicions"

Maybe we should worry about someone that practices what a drug addled gas bag tells them. That would be you okie and what you parrot from Rush.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  3  
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 04:09 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:
Obama is practicing what Wright preached, demonizing business, appointing Marxists to his administration, and so on and so forth.

If he was indeed demonizing business, you should be able to come up with an example of Obama actually doing so. If he was appointing Marxists, you should be able to point out how someone he appointed actually is a Marxist.

You can't, because your case is built on nothing but insinuations. In your world, when someone quotes Marx, he is a Marxist. When someone quotes Mao, no matter the context, it's proof positive that he is a Maoist. And if Obama appoints someone who somewhere, once, quoted Marx, it means that Obama is a Marxist, too.

You can't point to anything Obama has actually done or said that would reveal a Marxist policy.
old europe
 
  3  
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 04:16 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
Politics is a rough game for everyone, but our current president has amply revealed himself as unusually inclined to malign the motives of his opponents

It's probably easier to notice these things when the party you support is in the opposition. Remember this here?
Quote:
Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists.
 

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