55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
plainoldme
 
  2  
Reply Fri 2 Apr, 2010 09:25 pm
@okie,
Try jumping! You might reach what is flying over your head!
0 Replies
 
MASSAGAT
 
  -3  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2010 12:18 am
Diest TKO wrote:

I'm fairly confident that access to a good education and a properly funded school plays a considerable factor. I bet that if we were able to compare two populations of predominantly white schools where one was better funded, we'd also see trending in test scores.
************************************************************************

Of course, you would see trending. Most people who have studied American Schools know that "social class" does make some difference, but you obviously do not know what you are talking about when you talk about "better funded".

Now, I don't think I can convince you but if you really want to learn, access the study done in the sixties by the Coleman Report. Colman was engaged in a NATION WIDE study funded by the US Government to try to discover the differences between school achievement, especially achievement in schools that were predominantly black vis a vis schools whose students were predominately white.
Note: Brief article about the Coleman Report


Coleman Report An influential and controversial study, published by the US Government in 1966, under the title Equality of Educational Opportunity. The co-authored report was based on an extensive survey of educational opportunity (the national sample included almost 650,000 students and teachers in more than 3,000 schools), was mandated in the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and was directed by the sociologist James Coleman. It was a landmark in policy research, being one of the first social scientific studies specifically commissioned by Congress in order to inform government policy, following those done on the military during the Second World War. The research design adopted for the investigation changed the whole direction of policy research in education and was widely imitated by later researchers. The results shaped school desegregation policy for many years following publication of the Report.

The study began with the controversial and innovative premiss that equality of opportunity should be assessed by equality of outcome rather than equality of input. The researchers therefore collected data, not only on the educational resources available to different groups of children, but also on students' achievements (as measured by, for example, test scores). For the first time it was possible to provide an informed answer to the question of how much, and in what ways, schools were able to overcome the inequalities (notably those associated with race) with which children came to school. Coleman himself later argued that the most important research findings of the study were twofold. First, it showed that variations in school quality (as indexed by the usual measures such as per pupil expenditure, size of school library, and so on) showed little association with levels of educational attainment, when students of comparable social backgrounds were compared across schools. (Differences in students' family backgrounds, by comparison, showed a substantial association with achievement.) Second, a student's educational attainment was not only related to his or her own family background, but also (less strongly) to the backgrounds of the other students in the school. These findings had clear implications for social engineering: opportunities could best be equalized via strategies of desegregation of schools (for example by busing). They challenged a major plank of Lyndon Johnson's vision for the Great Society; namely, that increased spending on education could rectify social deficits.

*****************************************************************

You may note that, according to Coleman's massive study, VARIATIONS IN SCHOOL QUALITY SHOWED LITTLE ASSOCIATION WITH LEVELS OF EDUCATIONAL ATTAINMENT.

******************************************************************

But, then why don't we spend more money, Billions on schools--and teachers--and books--and new buildings--so we can improve education?

***********************************************************
That has been tried and it has failed to do very much!




MASSAGAT
 
  -3  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2010 12:31 am
CAn't we just spend more money, more money to improve schools?

It has been tried and it was a dismal failure in Kansas City, Kansas.

Note:

Executive Summary

For decades critics of the public schools have been saying, "You can't solve educational problems by throwing money at them." The education establishment and its supporters have replied, "No one's ever tried." In Kansas City they did try. To improve the education of black students and encourage desegregation, a federal judge invited the Kansas City, Missouri, School District to come up with a cost-is-no-object educational plan and ordered local and state taxpayers to find the money to pay for it.

Kansas City spent as much as $11,700 per pupil--more money per pupil, on a cost of living adjusted basis, than any other of the 280 largest districts in the country. The money bought higher teachers' salaries, 15 new schools, and such amenities as an Olympic-sized swimming pool with an underwater viewing room, television and animation studios, a robotics lab, a 25-acre wildlife sanctuary, a zoo, a model United Nations with simultaneous translation capability, and field trips to Mexico and Senegal. The student-teacher ratio was 12 or 13 to 1, the lowest of any major school district in the country.

The results were dismal. Test scores did not rise; the black-white gap did not diminish; and there was less, not greater, integration.

The Kansas City experiment suggests that, indeed, educational problems can't be solved by throwing money at them, that the structural problems of our current educational system are far more important than a lack of material resources, and that the focus on desegregation diverted attention from the real problem, low achievement.

0 Replies
 
MASSAGAT
 
  -3  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2010 12:39 am
Plainoldme wrote:


When my ex and I looked for houses, I noticed that if you traced the same size and style house through several communities, you could generally tell which had the best schools: the price of the given style house would be highest where the schools were superior.
************************************************************
And why was that, plainoldme?

Are you suggesting that the house prices meant that "rich" districts spent more money on the schools so that the children in those districts would have higher test scores and be learning more? If you are, you are very very mistaken.

l. You may not be aware of the Kansas City experiment. In that case, Millions were spent on the schools. Money did not help.

2. Did you ever hear of ESEA? . The ESEA programs came into being during the :Great Society Era( during Johnson's tenure). Since then BILLIONS of extra dollars have gone through ESEA to schools in the inner cities. Those BILLIONS have done no good.

3. This may come as a surprise to you, but it is a well established fact in Social Science that children who come from stable homes and have parents who are well educated, do, on the whole, much better than children who do not.

I don't think you have the slightest idea of what schools are like and what they are for and how they can be made to improve. Do some reading and then return to the discussion!
MASSAGAT
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2010 12:50 am
@mysteryman,
You are correct, Mysteryman. But, some say that the reason that Blacks score lower than whites on the SAT is that(pick one)

a. Their schools are not funded adequately(This was shown to be completely inaccurate by James Coleman0

b. White students are disadvantaged because of a lack of spending on their schools
(It has been clearly shown by the failed Kansas City Experiment that more money is not the answer and it has also been demonstrated that BILLIONS of dollars in ESEA money which has been funneled out of DC by the feds to go to the inner city ghetto schools to improve achievement has not paid off.

c. But for the coup de grace, I must refer to that brilliant African-American, Thomas Sowell ,who, in his master work--"Race and Culture": ( P. 172)showed that

quote:

"neither blacks, Mexican Americans, nor American Indians, with incomes of
$50,000 and above scored as well on the quantitative portion of the Scholastic Aptitude Test as Asian Americans from families with incomes of $16,000 or less. THE ENVIRONMENT THAT MATTERS FOR THIS PURPOSE MAY BE CULTURAL RATHER THAN ECONOMIC"
0 Replies
 
MASSAGAT
 
  -3  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2010 01:03 am
Anyone who reads widely in Education knows what Mysteryman pointed out.

African-Americans score the lowest among any group on the SAT. If that is a racist statement, then the Scholastic Achievement Test organizations should be put out of business since they give results in their summaries which show those outcomes.

The real question to be solved is to ask the question--Why? and how can this problem be solved?

l. There are many studies by respected sociologists on both sides of the political spectrum which show that any difference in IQ scores between racial groups may very well be due to social conditions and cultural beliefs.

2. There are many studies and experiments( Kansas City is one of the best) which clearly show that more money does not help. This is counter-intuitive but it is true. Sometimes the best treatment of a moribund patient will only be palliative.

3. There is evidence of great achievement among some Blacks and Hispanics. The key here is to study the backgrounds to try to determine the causes of achievement.

4. Asians do extremely well on every level of schooling. Many of them have arrived in the last twenty or thirty years as new immigrants from Viet-Nam and most of these have done extremely well in school. WHY?
When Phi Beta Kappa lists are perused in Colleges, why do Asians occupy such a large percentage of the list? Why are there so few blacks and Hispanics on these lists percentage wise?

These are the questions to ask!!!
0 Replies
 
MASSAGAT
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2010 01:05 am
Correction--In the post before last, the sentence should read--
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2010 03:55 am
@plainoldme,
Yes, I have seen the movie, and yes it was funny.
But calling someone a racist is in NO WAY funny.

So, I repeat what I said earlier...
Post even one comment from me where I even suggested that blacks were inferior to anyone.

You said there was ample evidence of me writing that, so either post it or admit you were wrong!!!!
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  2  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2010 04:07 am
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

Quote:
I don't think that telling what the data says is racist, but asserting what it means might be


Every analyist, statistician, scientist, or anyone else that looks at data tries to assert what it means, no matter what kind of data they are looking at.
Are all of them racist?

No.

It is the duty of anyone asserting what data means to account for error. The failure to do so, could lead to poor assertions. Likewise, if a localized population skewed averages, then this kind of information would be relevant as well.

I'm sure if you were to pull data from equestrian competitions around the USA, you'd find that African Americans and Latinos have not traditionally won or scored as high as whites. Would we be so quick to say that white people are just better at riding horses? I should hope not.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  3  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2010 04:09 am
@MASSAGAT,
Your suggestion is for me to read about a study from half a century ago? Certainly nobody in 50 years has investigated the topic since.

If you can't get past the word "funded," think about schools that have adequate "resources." Don't red herring over and over about funding. I'm not making it the fulcrum of my argument.

T
K
O
aidan
 
  0  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2010 05:37 am
@Diest TKO,
In one way or another each of the theories or reasons for the achievement gap between whites and blacks and even between whites and asians and pacific islanders could be considered at least partially correct.
There's not one reason or situational trait that results in what we see in terms of school performance and race. There are a combination of factors that taken together over the years has resulted in what we see today. Here are two interesting and more recent articles that explain:

Quote:
http://www.jbhe.com/features/53_SAT.html
There are other reasons that contribute to the large scoring gap between blacks and whites on the SAT:

• In some, if not many, cases, black schoolchildren are taught by white teachers who have low opinions of the abilities of black kids from the moment they enter the classroom. These teachers immediately write off black students as academic inferiors and do not challenge them sufficiently to achieve the skills necessary to perform well on standardized tests.
• The late John Ogbu, professor of anthropology at Berkeley, believed that broad cultural attributes among blacks " such as parental style, commitment to learning, and work ethic " bear a heavy responsibility for the black-white educational gap. Ogbu wrote in his recent book, Black American Students in an Affluent Suburb: A Study of Academic Disengagement, that black students in the affluent homes of doctors and lawyers are looking at rappers in ghettos as their role models. Students talk the talk about what it takes to be a good student, Ogbu wrote, but few put forth the effort required to get good grades. This type of behavior is typical, Ogbu said, of racial minorities adapting to oppression and the lack of opportunity. Ogbu, much as Bill Cosby has done recently, also placed the blame on black parents. He believed that many black parents are not offering sufficient guidance, do not spend enough time helping with homework, and do not pay adequate attention to their children’s educational progress.
• Black students in predominantly white schools who study hard are often the subject of peer ridicule. They are accused of “acting white” by other blacks. This so-called ghetto chic in the form of peer pressure to shun academic pursuits undoubtedly has some dragging effect on average black SAT scores.
• Black students may be subject to what Stanford psychology professor Claude Steele calls “stereotype vulnerability.” Steele contends that black students are aware of the fact that society expects them to perform poorly on standardized tests. This added pressure put upon black students to perform well in order to rebut the racial stereotype in fact makes it more difficult for them to perform well on these tests.
• Black students in some urban schools are taught an Afrocentric curriculum that may serve to increase black pride and foster an awareness of black culture, but this form of education pays little attention to the subject matters that are measured by the SAT.
• In the United States even middle-class blacks tend to be brought up in basically segregated surroundings. They are not taught the pathways and modes of thinking that are embedded in white culture and reflected in standardized tests. Black families that urge their children to go to college are often first-generation college graduates who grew up in households without the systems that support first-rate academic achievement.
• School administrators and guidance counselors " both black and white " often believe that black students are less capable and less able to learn. They routinely track black students at an early age into vocational training or into a curriculum that is not college preparatory. Black students are rarely recommended for inclusion in gifted education, honors, or Advanced Placement programs. Once placed on the slow academic track, most black kids can never escape. By the time black students are juniors and seniors in high school, they are typically so far behind their white counterparts in the critical subject areas necessary to perform well on standardized tests that they have little hope of ever matching the scores of whites on the SAT.


Quote:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/sats/etc/gap.html

Over the years, reseachers have documented persistent gaps in the performance of different groups on the SAT and other standardized tests.

For example, the College Board reported that the average score for women bound for college this Fall is 43 points below the average score for men. The average score for Asian Americans, Asians and Pacific Islanders on the SAT I math was 32 points higher than that for whites. But the greatest disparities have been documented between African Americans and whites.
Christopher Jencks and Meredith Phillips, editors of the 1998 book The Black-White Test Score Gap, point out in their introduction that African Americans score lower than whites on vocabulary, reading and math tests, as well as on tests such as the SAT. This gap appears before kindergarten and persists into adulthood.
The average black student scores below 70 to 80 percent of the white students of the same age, Jencks told FRONTLINE Similar issues arise when Mexican American and Latino students, as well as Native American students, are compared to white students, although this phenomenon has not been studied as widely, Jencks and Phillips say.
Among seniors who are entering college in the Fall of 1999, African Americans' average scores on the SAT I Verbal were 93 points below white students' average scores. Blacks scored, on average, 106 points less than whites on the SAT I Math.
The gap in SAT scores persists even at the highest levels of achievement. A study of the 1989 applicants to five highly-selective universities found that white candidates' average combined SAT score was 186 points higher than the corresponding SAT average for African American applicants.
Close to 75 percent of the white applicants scored over 1200 on the SAT, while 29 percent of black applicants did. The results of this study were reported in the 1998 book The Shape of the River: Long-Term Consequences of Considering Race in College and University Admissions, by Derek Bok and William Bowen, former presidents of Harvard and Princeton universities.

The gap cannot be easily explained. Contrary to what might be expected, Meredith Phillips and her colleagues suggest in The Black-White Test Score Gap that parents' income differences by themselves have almost no effect on children's test scores. Rather, they urge us to look further back in a child's family tree. Whether or not a parent follows the middle-class parenting practices that are most likely to increase a child's chances of doing well in school--having books at home, reading to the child, taking her on a trip to the museum, for example--depends on how the parent was raised.

Even when black and white parents have the same test scores, educational attainment, income, wealth and number of children, black parents are more likely to have grown up in less-advantaged households. So part of the explanation for the gap may lay in the widespread discrimination in housing, education and employment that African American children's grandparents faced.
In 1994, Harvard psychology professor Richard Herrnstein and economist Charles Murray asserted in their book The Bell Curve: Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life that differences in cognitive ability between racial groups as measured by standardized tests are due in part to genetics. Jencks and Phillips, however, point out in The Black-White Test Score Gap that "despite endless speculation, no one has found genetic evidence indicating that blacks have less innate intellectual ability than whites."

Recent studies have shown that later in life, when those students who make it to college and post-graduate studies are faced with standardized tests such as the SAT and the GRE, new factors come into play which might contribute to the gap. Stanford psychology professor Claude Steele and his colleagues have described what they call "stereotype threat."
According to their research, a student who feels he is part of a group that has been negatively stereotyped is likely to perform less well in a situation in which he thinks that people might evaluate him through that stereotype than in a situation in which he feels no such pressure. Steele has conducted experiments in which he brings in black students and white students to take a standardized test. The first time, he tells the students that they will be taking a test to measure their verbal and reasoning ability. The second time, he tells them the test is an unimportant research tool. Steele has found that the black students do less well when they are told that the test measures their abilities. He also believes that the effects of stereotype threat are strongest for students who are high-achievers and care very much about doing well.
They care so much about doing well, Steele says, that they feel that if they don't they will be confirming the negative stereotypes associated with black students. (Read FRONTLINE's interview with Claude Steele and, Steele's article in The Atlantic.)
In another experiment, Steele brought in white and Asian men who were strong in math. He told them the math test they were about to take was one in which Asians do slightly better than whites. The white men performed less well when they were told this, than when they were not. Another experiment showed that stereotype threat also brought down the performance of strong female math students.
Even though it has persisted, the black-white test score gap narrowed between 1976 and the late 1980s. Then it began to widen again. The decline has proven that the gap can be closed. "You can argue about why it happened, there's a lot of room for that," Jencks told FRONTLINE, "but something good took place that was both a surprise and a reason to believe that, if we worked at it, maybe we could make more good things take place."
In The Black-White Test Score Gap, David Grissmer and his colleagues attribute the narrowing gap (they focus their attention not on SAT scores, but rather on reading and math tests given to 9-,13- and 17-year-olds) to anti-poverty efforts, school desegregation, class-size reduction and more demanding coursework implemented in the 1960s and early 1970s.
The researchers suggest that teenage violence among blacks might have contributed to the widening of the gap starting at the end of the 1980s, but they warn that this is insufficient to explain all of it. Researchers like Jencks stress the importance of closing the gap. Blacks who acquire the skills measured by these tests do better economically, he told FRONTLINE. He also argues that closing the black-white test score gap would affect more meaningful change than affirmative action policies in college admissions which are currently being challenged on constitutional grounds.
"You wouldn't need to have racial preferences for admissions to elite colleges," Jencks said, "if you actually had candidates with comparable test scores." For additional discussion about the test score gap, read FRONTLINE's interview with Abigail Thernstrom.


URL: http://able2know.org/reply/post-3952730
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  3  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2010 07:23 am
Having taught both SPED and ELL at the high school level, I have to correct the assumption that Asians do better than other ethnic groups. They do not.

I had a brother and a sister from a CHinese family in different sections of ELL classes. The sister was older and a brilliant mathematician who took AP Calculus as a junior and earned straight As. The younger brother, as sometimes happens with a sibling following a brilliant older brother or sister, was a goof off.

But, largely because I saw this fictional argument that Asian do better, and because I knew the ethnic makeup of the school in terms of percentages, I watched the honor roll postings. The numbers of Asians making the honor roll was far below the percentage of Asian students in the school. However, the number of Blacks making the honor roll matched the percentage of Black students. This was true throughout the five years I worked at the school.
okie
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2010 09:13 am
@MASSAGAT,
MASSAGAT wrote:

Plainoldme wrote:
When my ex and I looked for houses, I noticed that if you traced the same size and style house through several communities, you could generally tell which had the best schools: the price of the given style house would be highest where the schools were superior.
************************************************************
And why was that, plainoldme?
Are you suggesting that the house prices meant that "rich" districts spent more money on the schools so that the children in those districts would have higher test scores and be learning more? If you are, you are very very mistaken.

Massagat, the mistake plainoldme makes is similar to that of lots of liberal minded people, they become confused about cause and effect, they may blame the cause on the effect instead of the reverse. I pointed this out to her and she then predictably accused me of talking down to her, by simple virtue of the fact that I pointed out the obvious. Basically I pointed out that substandard schools may be an effect of the attitudes prevailing in a community rather than the lack of money thrown at the schools, and the fault was not how nice the school was, but instead it was the attitude toward education that made the difference. I could use another example, let us take a red neck hick white trash community in Kentucky somewhere, drive by a place and look at all the junk cars and worn out washing machines and refrigerators in the yard of somebody sitting inside drinking beer and vegetating on the couch, unemployed and a loser. According to pom's reasoning, all the man needs to do to be successful is to give the guy a decent place to live, maybe build him a new house, heck the government could do that, and magically he would then be a success. No, I point out it is not addressing the problem, the problem is not the junk in his yard and a pathetic surrounding, the problem is in his head, he lacks the motivation and desire to better himself, and he lacks the desire to get off his duff and go outside and clean up the junk, shave and put on some decent clothes and go to town to apply for a job.

Now, pom can accuse me again of talking down to her and preaching as holier than thou to her. pom, all I am doing is pointing out the obvious, that the answer most often lies within people's minds, not a government solution or more money. Class envy never accomplished anything for anyone, but self motivation, commitment, and hard work have accomplished monemental tasks. Simply throwing more money at failed schools without changing the prevailing attitudes in a community, the families, and the people that are running it will do very very little good.
Diest TKO
 
  2  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2010 01:29 pm
Quote:
Voting is like driving - Vote "R" to go backwards, "D" to go forward.

HA.

T
K
O
MASSAGAT
 
  -3  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2010 06:27 pm
@Diest TKO,
Wow. Is that clever! Did you make that up or did you read that somewhere?
0 Replies
 
MASSAGAT
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2010 06:32 pm
@okie,
Okie- the poor woman is very confused. I do hope she is getting some help before she hurts herself. If you take pains to read what she has written you will find that most of it refers back to her earlier life and is entirely "anecdotal". Do you know what such meanderings may be a symptom of, Okie?
0 Replies
 
MASSAGAT
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2010 06:35 pm
@okie,
Okie- the poor woman is very confused. I do hope she is getting some help before she hurts herself. If you take pains to read what she has written you will find that most of it refers back to her earlier life and is entirely "anecdotal". Do you know what such meanderings may be a symptom of, Okie?

You wrote--

Basically I pointed out that substandard schools may be an effect of the attitudes prevailing in a community rather than the lack of money thrown at the schools.
end of quote
You are right on target. I can reference dozens of peer-accepted studies which PROVE what you wrote.
0 Replies
 
MASSAGAT
 
  0  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2010 06:38 pm
@plainoldme,
Really? Would you care to give some statistics, Plainold? or are you just bloviating?

You wrote that you taught at the high school level and you have to correct the assumption thart Asians do better than other ethnic groups.

Are you so DISCONNECTED FROM REALITY that you do not understand that anecdotal evidence is the worst type of evidence and that it proves nothing.

I have some evidence too. I knew a person( not on these threads) named plainoldme and she was a complete dunderhead. Would you accept that as evidence, plainold me?

Note:




It’s easy, and politically correct, to attribute the "racial achievement gap" separating Asians and whites students from Latinos and blacks ones to socioeconomic status and class size.

But Asian and Latino students in the same socioeconomic boat (say, those who recently immigrated from Vietnam and Mexico) get very different grades in school " so what’s the reason?

In this interesting article in the Los Angeles Times by Hector Becerra, students from the Lincoln High School discussed the issue still considered taboo by many:

Both the neighborhood and student body are about 15% Asian. And yet Asians make up 50% of students taking Advanced Placement classes. Staffers can’t remember the last time a Latino was valedictorian.

"A lot of my friends say the achievement gap is directly attributable to the socioeconomic status of students, and that is not completely accurate," O’Connell said. "It is more than that."

But what is it? O’Connell called a summit in Sacramento that drew 4,000 educators, policymakers and experts to tackle the issue. Some teachers stomped out in frustration and anger.

No Lincoln students stomped out of their discussion. Neither did any teachers in a similar Lincoln meeting. But the observations were frank, and they clearly made some uncomfortable.

To begin with, the eight students agreed on a few generalities: Latino and Asian students came mostly from poor and working-class families.

According to a study of census data, 84% of the Asian and Latino families in the neighborhoods around Lincoln High have median annual household incomes below $50,000. And yet the Science Bowl team is 90% Asian, as is the Academic Decathlon team.
************************************************************************

Now, plainold,it is up to you to show a study of MORE THAN ONE OR TWO ASIANS, which clearly shows that ASIANS, AS A GROUP, ARE NOT NEAR OR AT THE TOP OF THEIR CLASSES.

Of course, there are some Asians, since they are just people like everyone else, are around the middle of the pack, and there are even some who are below average, but, MOST Asians according to all studies with which I am familiar are in the upper half of their classes.

You seem to have done a lot of teaching, plainold. Did you ever teach a Nuclear Physics class?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2010 10:37 am
@Diest TKO,
Voting is like driving - Vote "R" to go RIGHT forward, vote "D" to go DOWN under!
parados
 
  0  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2010 11:07 am
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

Voting is like driving - Vote "R" to go RIGHT forward, vote "D" to go DOWN under!

I hope you don't have a license to drive after a stupid statement like that ican.
0 Replies
 
 

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