55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
MASSAGAT
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 27 Mar, 2010 12:01 am
@plainoldme,
You want me to write alternative history, plain old me? It might be better than writing ignorantly as you have done.

You say welfare no longer exists>

Note:

Let's look first at our current welfare state for the poor, the sick, and the old. Browning reports that the federal government maintains 85 means tested programs targeted to the poor and low income families. In 2005, total Federal, state and local spending on these programs was $620 billion. This was 25% more than was spent that year on national defense.
*********************************************************

You say that the incomes of the to p1% went through the roof? Let's solve that.

What about a tax on those high incomes? FDR put in an undistributed profits tax. That would show those greedy plutocrats.

What you probably do not realize is that the people who have money do not, I repeat, do not put most of that money in their mattresses or, indeed, into stocks and bonds. Most of the money is plowed back into businesses which create jobs.
When FDR put in his undistributed profits tax, the monied classes did what monied classes all over the world have done, they utilized legal means to protect their assets and did little to expand their industries.
That was, as you may know at the beginning of the Great Depression.

In 1933, the Unemployment Rate stood at 22.9%

In 1938, the Unemployment Rate stood at 17.4%

***************************************************************
But, I must admit, you may have a point if we can all adopt to an old economic adage--From all, according to their abilities--to all, according to their needs.

You do recognize the source of that, do you not?
plainoldme
 
  2  
Reply Sat 27 Mar, 2010 08:25 am
@MASSAGAT,
Take a look at the Congressional Budget Office, which is the most trusted keeper of the economic flame.

I earned less than $20,000 during 2009 and still had to pay taxes. There were no tax breaks for me. You blithely skip all mention of tax breaks, but, you would.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Sat 27 Mar, 2010 10:58 am
@JamesMorrison,
You don't believe what you are spouting because I just gave you an opportunity to get 100% return in a year and you refused it. I guarantee that gold will not grow by 10o% in value over the next year. In fact it would cost me about $10 to make that bet on the open market with the opportunity to make $1100 if it did so.

Quote:
All I ask is that people demand, obtain, and analyze pertinent info before they make decisions.
This from the guy that just said he can get 100% return in gold over the next year?

Really James, I wouldn't trust you to be able to analyze any data clearly. You are so afraid you can't see the data.

Why don't you put your 3 large in gold futures at 2200 in June of next year? It will only lose you 3 large.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  3  
Reply Sat 27 Mar, 2010 11:02 am
@MASSAGAT,
Quote:
You don't like that one?

Why on earth would I not like that one Possum?
It supports what I told James when I offered to bet that the GDP would be higher in one year.





Are you really this stupid MASSAGAT?

Perhaps you should find a quote from Wikipedia that can answer that question because you can't seem to think for yourself.
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Mar, 2010 01:14 pm
@parados,
Out of context, at that!
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Mar, 2010 03:04 pm
@plainoldme,
I'm curious what income taxes you had to pay with that low of an income?
ican711nm
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 27 Mar, 2010 04:29 pm
Quote:

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1040es.pdf
2010 Form 1040-ES Estimated Tax for Individuals

2010 Tax Rate Schedules

page 8
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Sat 27 Mar, 2010 04:45 pm
@ican711nm,
Quote:

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1040es_09.pdf
2009 Form 1040-ES Estimated Tax for Individuals

2009 Tax Rate Schedules

page 5

0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Mar, 2010 10:10 pm
@maporsche,
Some people are under the impression that those that earn at my level have all their deducted income tax returned to them. It is not true.
okie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2010 12:15 am
@plainoldme,
plainoldme wrote:

Some people are under the impression that those that earn at my level have all their deducted income tax returned to them. It is not true.

Okay then, what tax did you pay, or what was your refund? If what you say is the truth, you should have no trouble quoting the exact amount. If you actually earned about 20K, there is no way you paid any tax, in fact you had to have gotten more back than you even paid in, that is if you did the taxes right. Of course if you filed jointly and your husband made a ton of money, then you probably did pay tax as you claim, and did not receive a refund, but that would be different.

I know for a fact of relatives that make around 20 to 25K combined filing jointly, and they receive several thousand back, more than was even paid in, because of the earned income credit / children tax credits, etc. It essentially increases their income a few thousand, it is not a matter of just paying no tax at all.
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2010 08:32 am
@okie,
I do not qualify for the earned income credit.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2010 08:35 am
The Republicans, reeling from one defeat after another, are joining with the real extremists out of desperation. While dangerous to the country in the short-term, these people will increasingly be relegaged to the sidelines.

Whose Country Is It?

CHARLES M. BLOW
Published: March 26, 2010
The far-right extremists have gone into conniptions.

Earl Wilson/The New York Times
Charles M. Blow

The bullying, threats, and acts of violence following the passage of health care reform have been shocking, but they’re only the most recent manifestations of an increasing sense of desperation.

It’s an extension of a now-familiar theme: some version of “take our country back.” The problem is that the country romanticized by the far right hasn’t existed for some time, and its ability to deny that fact grows more dim every day. President Obama and what he represents has jolted extremists into the present and forced them to confront the future. And it scares them.

Even the optics must be irritating. A woman (Nancy Pelosi) pushed the health care bill through the House. The bill’s most visible and vocal proponents included a gay man (Barney Frank) and a Jew (Anthony Weiner). And the black man in the White House signed the bill into law. It’s enough to make a good old boy go crazy.

Hence their anger and frustration, which is playing out in ways large and small. There is the current spattering of threats and violence, but there also is the run on guns and the explosive growth of nefarious antigovernment and anti-immigrant groups. In fact, according to a report entitled “Rage on the Right: The Year in Hate and Extremism” recently released by the Southern Poverty Law Center, “nativist extremist” groups that confront and harass suspected immigrants have increased nearly 80 percent since President Obama took office, and antigovernment “patriot” groups more than tripled over that period.

Politically, this frustration is epitomized by the Tea Party movement. It may have some legitimate concerns (taxation, the role of government, etc.), but its message is lost in the madness. And now the anemic Republican establishment, covetous of the Tea Party’s passion, is moving to absorb it, not admonish it. Instead of jettisoning the radical language, rabid bigotry and rising violence, the Republicans justify it. (They don’t want to refute it as much as funnel it.)

There may be a short-term benefit in this strategy, but it’s a long-term loser.

A Quinnipiac University poll released on Wednesday took a look at the Tea Party members and found them to be just as anachronistic to the direction of the country’s demographics as the Republican Party. For instance, they were disproportionately white, evangelical Christian and “less educated ... than the average Joe and Jane Six-Pack.” This at a time when the country is becoming more diverse (some demographers believe that 2010 could be the first year that most children born in the country will be nonwhite), less doctrinally dogmatic, and college enrollment is through the roof. The Tea Party, my friends, is not the future.

You may want “your country back,” but you can’t have it. That sound you hear is the relentless, irrepressible march of change. Welcome to America: The Remix.
okie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2010 08:48 am
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:

The Republicans, reeling from one defeat after another, are joining with the real extremists out of desperation. While dangerous to the country in the short-term, these people will increasingly be relegaged to the sidelines.

The real extremists are those that are on a mission to steal our freedoms and liberties from us, plus what we have worked hard to earn, to redistribute to their voters and those that have not earned it. Socialists and Marxist sympathizers are truly the dangerous and extremist factions of our society, and they will stop at nothing to achieve their goals, including corrupt elections if they think they can get by with it.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2010 09:21 am
@okie,
Quote:

The real extremists are those that are on a mission to steal our freedoms and liberties from us,

Are you talking about the extremists that whine, threaten and actually commit violence when the winners of an election govern?
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2010 09:30 am
@okie,
Quote:
Okay then, what tax did you pay, or what was your refund? If what you say is the truth, you should have no trouble quoting the exact amount. If you actually earned about 20K, there is no way you paid any tax, in fact you had to have gotten more back than you even paid in, that is if you did the taxes right.
What the hell? You don't know much about taxes, do you okie?

A single person making $20,000 would owe income taxes of $784 according to TurboTax.
http://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tools/

That doesn't count the 7.65% FICA tax the person paid which would be $1530 in taxess.

Then if you include the employer paid FICA that is another $1530 in taxes

So a single person making $20,000 creates $3,844 in federal revenue without including any other excise taxes they might pay.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2010 10:07 am
@okie,
okie wrote:

It took a bunch of losers to vote for a loser.


I see you've come crawling back.

That 'loser' is busy passing plenty of legislation and getting stuff done. The Republicans on the other hand, bet the bank on being able to stop health care - and failed.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2010 10:11 am
An increasing number of Democrats are the real extremists they accuse others of being. They demonize all those who disagree with their baseless assertions. They have supported the passage of a law that usurps American individual freedom to choose whatever health care insurance they want. They claim the processes they choose to accomplish their objectives are irrelevant no matter how egregious and rotten those processes and/or objectives are.
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2010 10:13 am
@parados,
I used Turbotax . . . hated it. I love paper and pencil. During the 2008 tax year, I earned $2885.98 as a substitute teacher at the local high school. Teachers are not taxed as most employees are and, supposedly, pay more in taxes. I have not investigated that statement. Federal withholding = $38.94; Medicare = $45.24; state income tax = $63.33. State retirement (teachers do not pay into SS) = $234.02.

I earned $11,427.55 at my retail job. Federal withholding = $965.70; social security + $708.51; Medicate + $165.70; State income tax = $559.36.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2010 10:16 am
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

An increasing number of Democrats are the real extremists they accuse others of being. They demonize all those who disagree with their baseless assertions. They have supported the passage of a law that usurps American individual freedom to choose whatever health care insurance they want. They claim the processes they choose to accomplish their objectives are irrelevant no matter how egregious and rotten those processes and/or objectives are.


You don't have the freedom to choose ANYTHING without regulations, Ican. That freedom has never been guaranteed to you by any document. I doubt you could find a product on the market today that exists outside of regulations as to it's sale and usage.

This is because your actions have consequences which reach beyond yourself, and the government acts as my agent, protecting others from your use of a product.

You're just pissed because Obama has scored a historical achievement, a lasting one, and one which your party bet heavily against. Sore loser!

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2010 10:25 am
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/28/opinion/28rich.html?hp

Quote:
Op-Ed Columnist
The Rage Is Not About Health Care


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By FRANK RICH
Published: March 27, 2010

THERE were times when last Sunday’s great G.O.P. health care implosion threatened to bring the thrill back to reality television. On ABC’s “This Week,” a frothing and filibustering Karl Rove all but lost it in a debate with the Obama strategist David Plouffe. A few hours later, the perennially copper-faced Republican leader John Boehner revved up his “Hell no, you can’t!” incantation in the House chamber " instant fodder for a new viral video remixing his rap with will.i.am’s “Yes, we can!” classic from the campaign. Boehner, having previously likened the health care bill to Armageddon, was now so apoplectic you had to wonder if he had just discovered one of its more obscure revenue-generating provisions, a tax on indoor tanning salons.
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Fred R. Conrad/The New York Times

Frank Rich

But the laughs evaporated soon enough. There’s nothing entertaining about watching goons hurl venomous slurs at congressmen like the civil rights hero John Lewis and the openly gay Barney Frank. And as the week dragged on, and reports of death threats and vandalism stretched from Arizona to Kansas to upstate New York, the F.B.I. and the local police had to get into the act to protect members of Congress and their families.

How curious that a mob fond of likening President Obama to Hitler knows so little about history that it doesn’t recognize its own small-scale mimicry of Kristallnacht. The weapon of choice for vigilante violence at Congressional offices has been a brick hurled through a window. So far.

No less curious is how disproportionate this red-hot anger is to its proximate cause. The historic Obama-Pelosi health care victory is a big deal, all right, so much so it doesn’t need Joe Biden’s adjective to hype it. But the bill does not erect a huge New Deal-Great Society-style government program. In lieu of a public option, it delivers 32 million newly insured Americans to private insurers. As no less a conservative authority than The Wall Street Journal editorial page observed last week, the bill’s prototype is the health care legislation Mitt Romney signed into law in Massachusetts. It contains what used to be considered Republican ideas.

Yet it’s this bill that inspired G.O.P. congressmen on the House floor to egg on disruptive protesters even as they were being evicted from the gallery by the Capitol Police last Sunday. It’s this bill that prompted a congressman to shout “baby killer” at Bart Stupak, a staunch anti-abortion Democrat. It’s this bill that drove a demonstrator to spit on Emanuel Cleaver, a black representative from Missouri. And it’s this “middle-of-the-road” bill, as Obama accurately calls it, that has incited an unglued firestorm of homicidal rhetoric, from “Kill the bill!” to Sarah Palin’s cry for her followers to “reload.” At least four of the House members hit with death threats or vandalism are among the 20 political targets Palin marks with rifle crosshairs on a map on her Facebook page.

When Social Security was passed by Congress in 1935 and Medicare in 1965, there was indeed heated opposition. As Dana Milbank wrote in The Washington Post, Alf Landon built his catastrophic 1936 presidential campaign on a call for repealing Social Security. (Democrats can only pray that the G.O.P. will “go for it” again in 2010, as Obama goaded them on Thursday, and keep demanding repeal of a bill that by September will shower benefits on the elderly and children alike.) When L.B.J. scored his Medicare coup, there were the inevitable cries of “socialism” along with ultimately empty rumblings of a boycott from the American Medical Association.

But there was nothing like this. To find a prototype for the overheated reaction to the health care bill, you have to look a year before Medicare, to the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Both laws passed by similar majorities in Congress; the Civil Rights Act received even more votes in the Senate (73) than Medicare (70). But it was only the civil rights bill that made some Americans run off the rails. That’s because it was the one that signaled an inexorable and immutable change in the very identity of America, not just its governance.

The apocalyptic predictions then, like those about health care now, were all framed in constitutional pieties, of course. Barry Goldwater, running for president in ’64, drew on the counsel of two young legal allies, William Rehnquist and Robert Bork, to characterize the bill as a “threat to the very essence of our basic system” and a “usurpation” of states’ rights that “would force you to admit drunks, a known murderer or an insane person into your place of business.” Richard Russell, the segregationist Democratic senator from Georgia, said the bill “would destroy the free enterprise system.” David Lawrence, a widely syndicated conservative columnist, bemoaned the establishment of “a federal dictatorship.” Meanwhile, three civil rights workers were murdered in Philadelphia, Miss.

That a tsunami of anger is gathering today is illogical, given that what the right calls “Obamacare” is less provocative than either the Civil Rights Act of 1964 or Medicare, an epic entitlement that actually did precipitate a government takeover of a sizable chunk of American health care. But the explanation is plain: the health care bill is not the main source of this anger and never has been. It’s merely a handy excuse. The real source of the over-the-top rage of 2010 is the same kind of national existential reordering that roiled America in 1964.

In fact, the current surge of anger " and the accompanying rise in right-wing extremism " predates the entire health care debate. The first signs were the shrieks of “traitor” and “off with his head” at Palin rallies as Obama’s election became more likely in October 2008. Those passions have spiraled ever since " from Gov. Rick Perry’s kowtowing to secessionists at a Tea Party rally in Texas to the gratuitous brandishing of assault weapons at Obama health care rallies last summer to “You lie!” piercing the president’s address to Congress last fall like an ominous shot.

If Obama’s first legislative priority had been immigration or financial reform or climate change, we would have seen the same trajectory. The conjunction of a black president and a female speaker of the House " topped off by a wise Latina on the Supreme Court and a powerful gay Congressional committee chairman " would sow fears of disenfranchisement among a dwindling and threatened minority in the country no matter what policies were in play. It’s not happenstance that Frank, Lewis and Cleaver " none of them major Democratic players in the health care push " received a major share of last weekend’s abuse. When you hear demonstrators chant the slogan “Take our country back!,” these are the people they want to take the country back from.

They can’t. Demographics are avatars of a change bigger than any bill contemplated by Obama or Congress. The week before the health care vote, The Times reported that births to Asian, black and Hispanic women accounted for 48 percent of all births in America in the 12 months ending in July 2008. By 2012, the next presidential election year, non-Hispanic white births will be in the minority. The Tea Party movement is virtually all white. The Republicans haven’t had a single African-American in the Senate or the House since 2003 and have had only three in total since 1935. Their anxieties about a rapidly changing America are well-grounded.

If Congressional Republicans want to maintain a politburo-like homogeneity in opposition to the Democrats, that’s their right. If they want to replay the petulant Gingrich government shutdown of 1995 by boycotting hearings and, as John McCain has vowed, refusing to cooperate on any legislation, that’s their right too (and a political gift to the Democrats). But they can’t emulate the 1995 G.O.P. by remaining silent as mass hysteria, some of it encompassing armed militias, runs amok in their own precincts. We know the end of that story. And they can’t pretend that we’re talking about “isolated incidents” or a “fringe” utterly divorced from the G.O.P. A Quinnipiac poll last week found that 74 percent of Tea Party members identify themselves as Republicans or Republican-leaning independents, while only 16 percent are aligned with Democrats.

After the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was passed, some responsible leaders in both parties spoke out to try to put a lid on the resistance and violence. The arch-segregationist Russell of Georgia, concerned about what might happen in his own backyard, declared flatly that the law is “now on the books.” Yet no Republican or conservative leader of stature has taken on Palin, Perry, Boehner or any of the others who have been stoking these fires for a good 17 months now. Last week McCain even endorsed Palin’s “reload” rhetoric.

Are these politicians so frightened of offending anyone in the Tea Party-Glenn Beck base that they would rather fall silent than call out its extremist elements and their enablers? Seemingly so, and if G.O.P. leaders of all stripes, from Romney to Mitch McConnell to Olympia Snowe to Lindsey Graham, are afraid of these forces, that’s the strongest possible indicator that the rest of us have reason to fear them too.



Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
 

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