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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2010 02:43 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

Currently the Republican leadership has neither rejected or accepted Ryan et al's proposal. That means they have not rejected it. That means they have not yet accepted it. That means they are continuing to consider it.


How many months does it take to consider a proposal? Laughing

Surely if it was a workable document that they supported, it would be easily considered and adopted quickly. Or perhaps you have an explanation for why it has not been?

Cycloptichorn
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2010 02:53 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Surely if it was a workable document that they supported, it would be easily considered and adopted quickly. Or perhaps you have an explanation for why it has not been?

Do you consider the various versions of the Democrat's health care reform legislation to have been "workable documents"?
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2010 03:18 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
How many months has it taken for the Democrats to consider and then adopt their health care insurance program in both House and Senate?

Democrats have been considering various health care plans of various sorts at least since Wilson was president. Shocked Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2010 03:30 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Surely if it was a workable document that they supported, it would be easily considered and adopted quickly. Or perhaps you have an explanation for why it has not been?

Do you consider the various versions of the Democrat's health care reform legislation to have been "workable documents"?


Well, that's a rather silly question on your part, seeing as both the House and Senate have passed versions of it. The fact that you disagree with the bills does not mean that they are not 'workable' documents at all.

Looking more and more like it's going to pass. You started crowing too early.

Cycloptichorn
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2010 03:43 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
It was you, Cycloptichorn, who posted the following, was it not?
-------------------------------------
How many months does it take to consider a proposal?

Surely if it was a workable document that they supported, it would be easily considered and adopted quickly. Or perhaps you have an explanation for why it has not been?

... fact that you disagree with the bills does not mean that they are not 'workable' documents at all.
------------------------------------
Doesn't that mean that the fact that the Republicans are still considering Ryan's bill "does not mean that [it is not a] 'workable' document at all."
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2010 03:58 pm
@ican711nm,
Quote:

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=19081&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=DPD
THE FIX IS IN: DANGEROUS HEALTH BILL COMING TO FINAL VOTE
After months of posturing, President Obama has made it clear: the Senate bill is the final bill. The bill that narrowly passed the Senate on Christmas Eve by a partisan vote (prior to the election of Republican Scott Brown from Massachusetts), will more or less be the final bill. The only way the massive 2,700-page health care bill will become law is if the House now passes the Senate-passed bill, says the U.S. Chamber of Commerce.

If the Senate bill is passed into law with the President's reconciliation adjustments, the following dangerous policies will become law, says the Chamber:

=>You cannot keep the plan you have; all health insurance plans will be subject to numerous new mandates, requirements, regulations and bureaucratic oversight, which will force the plans to raise prices and change or eliminate plan offerings.

=>Your health care costs will increase; the bill will do very little to control costs, while simultaneously taxing the health industry -- taxes consumers will pay -- and forcing Americans to purchase more expensive health insurance.

=>Your taxes will increase; there will be a massive new payroll tax, a new tax on investments and 401(k)s, a new tax on "Cadillac" health benefits, new taxes on medical devices and prescription drugs, new taxes on all health insurance policies, and increased taxes in the form of cost-shifting through lower payments to hospitals and doctors.

Also:

=>The debt, the deficit and federal spending will increase; despite a number of accounting gimmicks, like starting the taxation before the program spending begins, and double-counting $500 billion in Medicare cuts, the bill's true cost will be trillions of dollars. The bill creates new entitlements that will increase forever, much like Social Security and Medicare.

=>Medicare will be cut by $500 billion; the Congressional Budget Office clearly stated: "20 percent of Part A providers would become unprofitable" and stop seeing Medicare patients.

=>Jobs will be lost, or never created; the bill creates a huge incentive not to hire low-wage workers or grow a business beyond 50 employees. Employers who hire a low-wage worker, even if they offer great health insurance, could be fined $3,000 per year.

Source: James Gelfand, "The Fix Is In: Dangerous Health Bill Coming to Final Vote," U.S. Chamber of Commerce, March 9, 2010.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2010 03:59 pm
@ican711nm,
You're right - it is not my opinion which renders Ryan's budget and health care bills unworkable. It is the fact that his own leadership refuses to adopt or even discuss the bills in depth.

On the other hand, the Dem leadership clearly supports their version of the HC bills and budget bills which have been put forth. There really is no comparison at all.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2010 04:01 pm
@ican711nm,
There is no truth behind the unsourced allegations your correspondent has made here. Many of them are distortions and some are outright lies.

Not that this ever has or will stop you from posting something here.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2010 04:12 pm
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3114

The Center for Budget and Policy Priorities has an extensive breakdown of how Ryan's proposed budget would raise taxes for the vast majority of Americans AND fail to balance the budget.

Cycloptichorn
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2010 05:16 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Who are The Center for Budget and Policy Priorities?
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3114

Why should I or anyone else believe these people's analysis of Ryan's budget proposal is valid?

Why should I or anyone else believe these people object to Ryan's Medical Insurance proposal?

I believe a flat tax on gross income--no deductions, exemptions, or refunds-- should replace all other forms of federal income tax--corporate, inheritance, et cetera--in order to greatly reduce federal corruption of elections, and require everyone who earns income in the USA to pay the same tax--a uniform tax--on each and every dollar they earn. I agree such a tax would greatly reduce the amount of income tax paid by the wealthiest, but I have no problem with that. I think private investors with their investments and purchases can help far more people increase their economic independence than can our government making welfare purchases and investments with the same money.

Our current income places us in the 15% bracket of the current income tax on our taxable income--about 8% on our gross income. We have no doubt that the flat tax I described would lead to an increase in the taxes we pay, and a decrease in the taxes the wealthier pay. But my wife and I would be a lot happier, knowing our children and grandchildren would be a whole lot better off than we and they are now.

I oppose the so-called "fairtax" on purchases for two reasons:
(1) I do not want it to be adopted until the 16th Amendment is rescinded in order to avoid double taxation;
(2) I do not think it a fair tax on those who must spend a greater percentage of their income on purchases than they do on investments;
(3) We root for everyone else to be wealthier than we are.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2010 05:24 pm
@ican711nm,
Quote:
Why should I or anyone else believe these people's analysis of Ryan's budget proposal is valid?


Your attempt at character assassination against them fails because you have no evidence showing any reason their analysis should not be trusted. Their analysis is most certainly superior to your non-analysis of Ryan's proposal.

Your ideas on taxation are uninteresting; they are nothing more then the standard 'cut taxes for the rich' ideas that Republicans have put forward forever.

Cyclotpichorn
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2010 11:56 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Your attempt at character assassination against them fails because you have no evidence showing any reason their analysis should not be trusted.

Your attempt at character assassination against me fails because you have no evidence showing any reason their analysis should be trusted. Laughing
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2010 01:16 pm
@ican711nm,
Fortunately I wasn't attempting to assassinate your character at at, and a more careful reading of my post makes this abundantly clear. This is nothing more then your lame attempt at a comeback, because you have nothing substantial with which to forward your side of the argument.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2010 01:23 pm
@ican711nm,
Quote:
I oppose the so-called "fairtax" on purchases for two reasons:
(1) I do not want it to be adopted until the 16th Amendment is rescinded in order to avoid double taxation;


Rescinding the 16th amendment doesn't prevent income tax from being levied on wages. Your ignorance knows no bounds.
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2010 02:54 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:
Rescinding the 16th amendment doesn't prevent income tax from being levied on wages. Your ignorance knows no bounds.

Laughing
You are right in one sense: members of our present government have already demonstrated they do not feel limited to the powers the Constitution grants the federal government. It would tax incomes even if the 16th Amendment were repealed. For that reason alone, the impeachment and removal of Obama, Biden, Pilosi, and Reid is justified.

Quote:

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_amendments_11-27.html
Amendment XVI (1913)
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census of enumeration.

Quote:

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html
Article VI The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2010 03:20 pm
@ican711nm,
Quote:
You are right in one sense: members of our present government have already demonstrated they do not feel limited to the powers the Constitution grants the federal government. It would tax incomes even if the 16th Amendment were repealed. For that reason alone, the impeachment and removal of Obama, Biden, Pilosi, and Reid is justified.

Again, you show your ignorance. It was decided almost 100 years ago that the income from wages could be taxed, prior to the passage of the 16th amendment. Rescinding that amendment means we would be subject to the same rules prior to the amendment.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2010 05:37 pm
@parados,
parados" wrote:
It was decided almost 100 years ago that the income from wages could be taxed, prior to the passage of the 16th amendment.

Identify your source and provide a link to that decision.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2010 05:42 pm
@ican711nm,
I suggest you start here ican

Pollock v. Farmers' Loan & Trust Company
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2010 05:52 pm
@parados,
Quote:
We have considered the act only in respect of the tax on income derived from real estate, and from invested personal property, and have not commented on so much of it as bears on gains or profits from business, privileges, or employments, in view of the instances in which taxation on business, privileges, or employments has assumed the guise of an excise tax and been sustained as such.


Pollock v Farmers' Loan

The court didn't look at an income tax on employment (wages) because it considered them excise taxes and constitutional.
JamesMorrison
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2010 07:45 pm
Not to long ago I noted that President Obama had given Americans hope when it came to increasing energy options that would lower their energy costs and decrease (at least a little) the leverage of foreign oil producing nations have against the U.S. when he announced federal loan guarantees for a couple of reactors in GA. Well, those so inclined to trust Obama at his word now have reason for pause on this front.
Quote:
As for nuclear power, Mr. Obama has promised an $8.3 billion loan guarantee to build two nuclear reactors in Georgia. However, Mike Morris, the CEO of American Electric Power, explained at a recent Wall Street Journal energy conference that while loan guarantees were a "nice thing," they were meaningless in the absence of regulatory certainty.

Only five of 50 states have what Mr. Morris calls nuclear-friendly "enabling" legislation that might convince corporate boards to commit capital to a long-term project. The federal Nuclear Regulatory Commission, despite adopting a streamlined licensing process in 2005, hasn't issued key rules.

The Administration also sent mixed signals last week by putting the kibosh on Yucca Mountain for nuclear waste disposal. Energy Secretary Steven Chu has convened yet another "blue ribbon" panel on nuclear waste, which will probably have the half-life of uranium. Companies are already suing the feds for failing to meet legal obligations to collect waste, and the end of Yucca is one more reason for utilities to avoid making large capital bets amid uncertain government policy.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704784904575112144130306052.html?mod=WSJ_newsreel_opinion


Loan guarantees are fine but, let's be honest, if the president really wanted to move on this issue and send a message to Interior and others he could easily do so. Remember, his order to rescind Bush's order on stem cell researce? Hell, why not use that Science/Math based reasoning to accomplished his implied goal towards energy ? Another case of smoke and mirrors in the Obama narrative? Google this: " Harry, I have a gift" and the first thing you find is the answer to Obama's successful campaign. Dan Henninger's column is insightful. If you have the time to read it would be a good investment. A snippet:
Quote:
Early in the campaign, in January 2007, a New York Times reporter wrote a story about Mr. Obama's time as president of the Harvard Law Review. It was there, the reporter noted, "he first became a political sensation."

Here's why: "Mr. Obama cast himself as an eager listener, sometimes giving warring classmates the impression that he agreed with all of them at once." Also: "People had a way of hearing what they wanted in Mr. Obama's words."

Harvard Law Prof. Charles Ogletree told how Mr. Obama spoke on one contentious issue at the law school, and each side thought he was endorsing their view. Mr. Ogletree said: "Everyone was nodding, Oh, he agrees with me." http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124105013014171063.html

But that was then and this is now. Now, of course, Barack Obama, is the President of the United States. Political slight of hand can be somewhat forgiven for a campaign stratagey but his role as the top American leader demands drive, leadership, and honesty of purpose towards his fellow Americans (not that this is a bad thing during a campaign either). Indeed, "Al Gore's former chief of staff Ron Klain,also of Harvard Law, reflects on the Obama sensation: 'The interesting caveat is that [Obama's] is a style of leadership more effective running a law review than running a country.''

One gets the ever increasing sense that Obama has a definite agenda in mind but feels compelled, for some reason, to be less than completely honest with fellow American citizens about what that might be. As an advocate for a client sometimes consul chooses to obfuscate (show reasonable doubt, if you will). But this is not his present and chosen vocation. As President he should be forthcoming as to his goals for Americans and how we might acheive them together. He chooses not to do so and therefore risks becoming a pariah.

JM

P.S. About the pariah thing: From an article (Red State) entitled Barack Obama Tacitly Acknowledges He is Now a Pariah and the Democrats Are Screwed in 2010 "Today in Missouri, Barack Obama spoke at the fundraiser organized by the joint fundraising committee of the DSCC and sitting United States Senator Claire McCaskill " a woman not up for re-election.

At this event, Robin Carnahan, the 2010 Democratic Senate candidate in Missouri, was no where to be seen."

WHAT?? Well, here you go.
http://www.redstate.com/erick/2010/03/10/barack-obama-tacitly-acknowledges-he-is-now-a-pariah-and-the-democrats-are-screwed-in-2010/

0 Replies
 
 

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