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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jan, 2010 10:22 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

I know ican made two posts after mine, but I have him on Ignore. Will somebody please respond to his stupid answers?




CI on 12/17/09 wrote:
I have no patience for people who stick in one-liners that doesn't address the issues being discussed.
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jan, 2010 10:28 am
@cicerone imposter,
CI, I think they ARE and for the most part, have been.

You keep on saying this; I'm not sure why, but you must have blinders on.
0 Replies
 
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jan, 2010 10:33 am
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

Ican,
You are beating a dead horse.
Obama is the President, he is a US citizen, having been born in Hawaii, and unless you want to remove him by force (which I strongly advise against), he will be President till at least 2012.


i don't, please try it ican, lets see how it works out for you
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jan, 2010 11:23 am
@djjd62,
I second that recommendation! They're all talk and no action; their posts are mostly all threats without much behind them.
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jan, 2010 12:20 pm
@cicerone imposter,
You are encouraging him to try to remove Obama from office using physical force.

Is that really a good idea?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jan, 2010 12:47 pm
@maporsche,
If he's "that" stupid to not understand existing laws about making threats against a president is his problem.
0 Replies
 
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jan, 2010 12:51 pm
@maporsche,
merely as an observer, i don't want to do it, but i'd love to see what happens to ican if he was to try

furthermore, presidents, prime ministers and all heads of state should lighten up anyway, "wah, somebody threatened me, wah" buncha babies
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jan, 2010 05:31 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:
Ican,
You are beating a dead horse.
Obama is the President, he is a US citizen, having been born in Hawaii, and unless you want to remove him by force (which I strongly advise against), he will be President till at least 2012.

My sister was also born in Hawaii, and she doesnt have a copy of her birth certificate either, she does however have the same paper from Hawaii that Obama has.

It was good enough for her to get a passport, for her to get a govt job, and is accepted in every state and country as a birth certificate

The issue is NOT PROPERLY whether or not I AM beating a dead horse.

The issue is PROPERLY whether or not AMERICAN GRAND JURY is beating a dead horse.

By the way, your sister didn't run for president, and therefore was not required by the US Constitution to be a "natural born citizen." Nor does the US Constitution require her to be a a "natural born citizen" for "her to get a passport, for her to get a govt job, and [be] accepted in every state and country as [having] a birth certificate" that proves she is a "natural born citizen."

one more time: Judge Carter’s words reveal his lack of knowledge of the US Constitution and his lack of a basic understanding of what the issue really is.

Judge Carter wrote:

http://americangrandjury.org/category/agj-editorial
There may very well be a legitimate role for the judiciary to interpret whether the natural born citizen requirement has been satisfied in the case of a presidential candidate who has not already won the election and taken office. However, on the day that President Obama took the presidential oath and was sworn in, he became president of the United States. Any removal of him from the presidency must be accomplished through the Constitution’s mechanisms for the removal of a president, either through impeachment or the succession process set forth in the Twenty-Fifth Amendment.


AMERICAN GRAND JURY wrote:
The Judge forgot to mention the fact that Obama committed FRAUD when taking office. Obama knowingly defrauded the public when he placed his name on the ballot and again when he the took the Oath of Office. Obama is a USURPER, not a legal President. The Constitution is VERY CLEAR, no man can serve or be elected to the Office of the Presidency unless he is a “natural born” citizen. The election is basically “null and void.”

Judge Carter can preach till he is blue in the face about Obama being sworn in and now it’s too late. NO SIR, it is never to late to convict Obama for election fraud, even treason. Obama can be removed just as quickly as he took office.
...

djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jan, 2010 05:35 pm
@ican711nm,
you my friend, are a ******* nutbar

just thought you should know, it might have escaped your notice
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jan, 2010 06:19 pm
@djjd62,
It's not that it has escaped his notice, but he's unawares of most things that most take for granted as fact and evidence. He has learned how to cut and paste numbers without understanding the essence for them.
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jan, 2010 06:20 pm
@cicerone imposter,
it's great he cut and pasted the same article twice (two posts in a row) over in the obama thread
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jan, 2010 08:31 pm
@djjd62,
That's to be expected and a foregone conclusion! He's not going to change.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jan, 2010 08:32 pm
@maporsche,
What's your point?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jan, 2010 08:35 pm
@realjohnboy,
Quote:
2010 situation grows more difficult for Democrats
By LIZ SIDOTI, AP National Political Writer Liz Sidoti, Ap National Political Writer 26 mins ago

WASHINGTON " An already difficult situation for Democrats in Congress is worsening as the 2010 political season opens.

To minimize expected losses in next fall's election, President Barack Obama's party is testing a line of attack that resurrects George W. Bush as a boogeyman and castigates Republicans as cozy with Wall Street.

Four House Democrats from swing districts have recently chosen not to seek re-election, bringing to 11 the number of retirements that could leave Democratic-held seats vulnerable to Republicans. More Democratic retirements are expected.

Over the holiday break, another Democrat, freshman Rep. Parker Griffith of Alabama, defected to the GOP. "I can no longer align myself with a party that continues to pursue legislation that is bad for our country, hurts our economy, and drives us further and further into debt," said Griffith, who voted against Democrats' three biggest initiatives in 2009: health care, financial regulation and reducing global warming.

In the Senate, at least four Democrats " including Majority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada and five-term Connecticut Sen. Chris Dodd " are in serious trouble. The party could also lose its grip on seats Obama held in Illinois and Vice President Joe Biden long occupied in Delaware.

Going into 2010, Democrats held a 257-178 majority in the House and an effective 60-40 majority in the Senate, including two independents who align themselves with Democrats.

But they face an incumbent-hostile electorate worried about a 10 percent unemployment rate, weary of wars and angry at politicians of all stripes. Many independents who backed Democrats in 2006 and 2008 have turned away. Republicans, meanwhile, are energized and united in opposing Obama's policies.
0 Replies
 
JamesMorrison
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jan, 2010 03:25 pm
@realjohnboy,
realjohnboy wrote:
Quote:
It is probably appropriate that the likes of Cyclops, Cicerone and I bow out of this thread and leave yall to discuss the future of the Republican Party and its conservative wing.


This is quite noble, but I think all posters add value to the thread. Please stay. If us conservatives have value in our principles and the arguments supporting them we should welcome the challanges of those who disagree with us whatever their political stripe. Therefore, I refuse to put anyone on ignore. I joined A2K to get answers to some simple questions years ago and ended up on some contentious threads such as this. It has been a good learning experience and has actually helped form my present political position thru encounters with all posters.

Thank you for the invitation to "Oh, No! Election Day is Tuesday, November 2nd, 2010". I'll check it out with the hope of learning some more.

The Birther crowd may have a point, and may even be correct, but they seem, to me anyhow, to possess an element of deja vu regarding the "Bush stole the election" crowd. Two points seem to make this effort moot.

1. To us conservatives, President Obama is less of a problem then the Lefty mischief in the legislature. But even if we lamant Obama's leadership of a Democratic Congress are we ready to accept...

2. A Biden Administration? This in itself might be a fantasy thread just trying to figure out those resultant presidential policies! Smile

JM

0 Replies
 
JamesMorrison
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jan, 2010 03:49 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
Quote:
I also believe that the republican party has to be much more than the No Party to win elections.

I refuse to believe that you really believe that pablum. You have been witness to this thread and all congressional republican's suggestions to make our health care system more realistic and better such as interstate insurance competition, the abolition of community rating and guaranteed issue, tort reform. We all have seen the liberal Democratic idea of 'Bipartisanship' in the votes for Obamacare: one Republican vote (out of how many) in the House and none in the Senate.

Far better for you to argue against conservatives suggestions on the merits. This way you will have a better idea what happened if the American voter leans towards canindates like McDonnell in VA and Rubio in FL in 2010. Know thine enemy! Wink
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jan, 2010 05:41 pm
@JamesMorrison,
JM wrote:
Quote:
I refuse to believe that you really believe that pablum. You have been witness to this thread and all congressional republican's suggestions to make our health care system more realistic and better such as interstate insurance competition, the abolition of community rating and guaranteed issue, tort reform. We all have seen the liberal Democratic idea of 'Bipartisanship' in the votes for Obamacare: one Republican vote (out of how many) in the House and none in the Senate.


1.“ such as interstate insurance competition”

From Kaiser Health News: 
Republicans Still Opposed Baucus Plan, “Even Though Some Elements Of Their Ideas Are Embedded In The Plan;” Policy Expert: “You Can See The Negotiation Process Here, A Bipartisan Process In This Bill.” Kaiser Health News reported that, “Republicans denounced the Democrats' latest health care proposal"even though some elements of their ideas are embedded in the plan. The Senate Finance Committee bill unveiled Wednesday by chairman Max Baucus, D-Mont., contains several provisions that were inspired by Republicans, including testing new ways to handle medical malpractice cases, creating avenues for consumers to cross state lines to buy insurance and immediately launching a high-risk pool that would cover people with pre-existing medical conditions… ‘This isn't everything Republicans wanted, but it isn't everything Democrats wanted either,’ said Elizabeth Carpenter, associate policy director at the centrist New America Foundation in Washington. ‘You can see the negotiation process here, a bipartisan process in this bill.’” [Kaiser Health News, 9/16/09]

Baucus Proposed Measure To “Allow For The Purchase Of Individual Health Insurance Across State Lines.” Sen. Baucus’ chairman’s mark proposed that, “[s]tarting in 2015, states may form ‘health care choice compacts’ to allow for the purchase of individual health insurance across state lines…. Once compacts have been agreed to, insurers would be allowed to sell policies in any state participating in the compact.” [Revised Chairman’s Mark, Page 16, 10/2/09]


The GOP plan would have allowed Americans to purchase insurance across state lines, but it provided nothing for driving down insurance premium costs such as it would have done with a "Public Option". All the ability to purchase across state lines would have done would be to allow the big insurance companies the opportunity to drive out any smaller insurance companies.




2.“ the abolition of community rating and guaranteed issue”

From the NYT:
Sen. Baucus “Did Not Win Support From A Single Republican Despite Tailoring His Proposal To Be Less Costly And To Extend To Reach Of Government Less Than Other Health Bills Moving Through Congress.” The New York Times reported that, “[t]he chairman of the Senate Finance Committee on Wednesday unveiled his long-awaited plan to remake the nation’s health care system and insure millions of Americans. But he did not win support from a single Republican despite tailoring his proposal to be less costly and to extend the reach of government less than other health bills moving through Congress…Mr. Baucus’s bill is the least expensive of five major health care bills moving through Congress.” [New York Times, 9/17/09]

3.“tort reform”


From American Chronicle:
GOP´s Tort / Malpractice Reform Proposal: All claims against any doctor would have needed to be filed within three years, and it capped damages at $250,000. Their plan says that no matter how bad the malpractice claim was, $250,000 is the cap on the liability. This definitely didn´t sound like an appropriate dollar amount if someone died or was maimed for life through a real malpractice claim…? There is no tort reform such as this in the Democrat´s plan.

The Republican plan would have done nothing regarding "pre-existing conditions" or for stopping health insurance companies from cherry-picking the healthiest of individuals for coverage at the expense of others. This failure would have left millions of Americans ineligible for coverage and would have continued the crisis facing families across the country. (Remember, the majority of America´s mortgage foreclosures and personal bankruptcies are due to catastrophic illness and the families´ lack of insurance.)

The GOP proposal wasn't real reform. It was more of a document that the Republicans had to put out just so they could say that they had some sort of health care bill.

And of all the above GOP proposals, how would they have been implemented? The Republicans did not have one single plan for the execution of their proposals.

And finally, it's about the money:

The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) issued an analysis of the alternative health care bill from the House Republicans.

The GOP plan would have saved the federal budget deficit $68 billion over 10 years and on average reduce insurance premiums compared to what they would be under current law. This all sounds pretty good, but its success would still have depended on trusting the private insurance companies, which to date has been a total disaster. The Democrat´s bill will save $150 Billion over those same 10 years.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jan, 2010 06:22 pm
Orrin G. Hatch, J. Kenneth Blackwell, and Kenneth A Klukowski in the WSJ, 1/2-3/2010, wrote:
President Obama's health-care bill is now moving toward final passage. The policy issues may be coming to an end, but the legal issues are certain to continue because key provisions of this dangerous legislation are unconstitutional.
...
First, the Constitution does not give Congress the power to require that Americans purchase health insurance.
...
A second constitutional defect of the Reid bill passed in the Senate involves the deals he cut to secure the votes of individual senators.
...
A third constitutional defect in this ObamaCare legislation is its command that states establish such things as benefit exchanges, which will require state legislation and regulations.
...
This hardly exhausts the list of constitutional problems with this legislation, which would take the federal government into uncharted political and legal territory.
...
America's founders intended the federal government to have limited powers and that states have an independent sovereign place in our system of government. The Obama/Reid/Pelosi legislation to take control of the American health-care system is the most sweeping and intrusive federal program ever devised. If the federal government can do this, then it can do anything, and the limits on government power that our liberty requires will be more myth than reality.

George Orwell in NINETEEN EIGHTY-FOUR, PART III, Chapter III, wrote:
http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/o/orwell/george/o79n/chap20.html
[O'Brien said,] There is no way in which the Party can be overthrown. The rule of the Party is forever. Make that the starting point of your thoughts.'

He came closer to the bed. 'For ever!' he repeated. 'And now let us get back to the question of "how" and "why". You understand well enough how the Party maintains itself in power. Now tell me why we cling to power. What is out motive? Why should we want power? Go on, speak,' he added as Winston remained silent.

George Orwell in NINETEEN EIGHTY-FOUR, Part III, Chapter III, wrote:

http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/o/orwell/george/o79n/chap20.html
[O'Brien said,] 'The Party seeks power entirely for its own sake. We are not interested in the good of others; we are interested solely in power. Not wealth or luxury or long life or happiness: only power, pure power. What pure power means you will understand presently. We are different from all the oligarchies of the past, in that we know what we are doing. All the others, even those who resembled ourselves, were cowards and hypocrites. The German Nazis and the Russian Communists came very close to us in their methods, but they never had the courage to recognize their own motives. They pretended, perhaps they even believed, that they had seized power unwillingly and for a limited time, and that just round the corner there lay a paradise where human beings would be free and equal. We are not like that. We know that no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means, it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you [Winston] begin to understand me?'

0 Replies
 
JamesMorrison
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jan, 2010 06:40 pm
@realjohnboy,
realjohnboy wrote:
Quote:
I started a thread a month or so ago called "Oh, No! Election Day is Tuesday, November 2nd, 2010" where predictions, such as Cyclops' are welcome. I hope to see yall there.


Do you have a link handy for this?

Thanks,

JM
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jan, 2010 07:01 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

Diest TKO wrote:
Lower taxes for the wealthy just transfer wealth upwards where is stagnates.

The wealth of the rich does not stagnate.

The hell it doesn't. Trickledown is a fairytale.

ican711nm wrote:

It is invested in that which produces new jobs and maintain existing jobs.

No. Corporate execs believe they deserve the same amount of money no matter how poor they do. The first priority of the money at the table is to feed the pantheon, not invest into Rome.

ican711nm wrote:

It purchases the work and wealth opportunities, commodities, products, services, and facilities that produce new jobs and maintains existing jobs.

History does not support this claim. We see companies get money and they gift the CEOs not invest it in the interest of new jobs.

ican711nm wrote:

If it weren't for those who were or became rich, a very large majority of us would not be enjoying the work and wealth opportunities, the commodities, products, services, and facilities we enjoy.

Yeah, and most companies wouldn't even exist without grant money from the government. Companies don't invent rockets to go to the moon with no potential for financial gain. We enjoy these facilities because the government buys them. Companies don't provide these things from the goodness of their hearts.

ican711nm wrote:

It's long past time you recognize:
(1) damn thieving coveting supresses one's drive and initiative to lawfully increase their wealth;
(2) those who lawfully become and/or maintain their wealth do it as a natural consequence of paying or investing in others who also become wealthier than they would otherwise;
(3) gaining wealth is not a zero sum game, where people become wealthy at the expense of others becoming poorer;
(4) gaining wealth is positive sum game, where people who become wealthy create more wealth for everyone;

(5) those who have tought you otherwise are nothing more than damn thieving coveters;
(6) most wealthy failed multiple times before they became wealthy;
(7) you too must work and invest to achieve what you want to achieve, and that will help us all.

Highlighted in blue is my favorite part. It made me laugh.

T
K
O
 

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