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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 08:36 am
@ican711nm,
Quote:

Clearly, if government spending stays the same, and TAX RATES are decreased, then government deficit spending may or may not remain the same. People will have more to spend and may spend more thereby increasing the incomes of some people such that TOTAL TAXES collected may actually increase and deficit spending thereby decreased.

If TOTAL taxes increase then "other factors" are NOT constant.
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 11:15 am
@parados,
Don't you know that every relationship has a linear nature? Especially tax stuff!

T
K
O
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 12:06 pm
@Diest TKO,
Diest TKO wrote:

Don't you know that every relationship has a linear nature? Especially tax stuff!

T
K
O

Not linear. What you guys are talking about is the Laffer Curve principle, which says that 0% tax of the economy is 0 and 100% tax of the economy is maybe more than 0 but not much, and there is an optimum tax rate somewhere in the middle that delivers optimum tax revenues. The reason 100% tax rate is not much more than 0 is the fact that people will quit working if the government takes every last bit of their money earned. If you don't believe that, look up the difference between gdp of South Korea vs North Korea, wherein North Korea is a communist government and most if not all of the economic output is given to the government to then dole back out as that government sees fit. Last I checked I think gdp was less than 10% that of South Korea, so obviously 100% of maybe 5% is far less than perhaps 25 to 30% of 100%.

The Laffer Curve principle is not only a math principle, but is also a very obvious human nature and economic principle, and anyone that denies it is basically ignorant of human nature, basic economics, and history.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 12:07 pm
@okie,
Your observations are what's on the laffer curve; you make no sense with your extreme claims. Zero tax? You don't even live in the real world.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 12:58 pm
Quote:
HARDEST HIT BY OBAMACARE

By DICK MORRIS & EILEEN MCGANN

Published in the New York Post on November 30, 2009.


The "health-care reform" bills in Congress would hit 39 states hard with new expenses, by raising Medicaid eligibility above the cur rent income cutoffs.

The only states that won't have to raise eligibility because of the Senate bill are Connecticut, Illinois, Maine, Massachusetts, Minnesota, New Jersey, New York, Rhode Island, Tennessee, Vermont and Wisconsin (plus the District of Columbia). And the House bill would force even Massachusetts and Vermont to pay more.

Hardest hit would be Texas ($2,750 million a year in extra state spending under the Senate bill), Pennsylvania ($1,450 million), California ($1,428 million) and Florida ($909 million). Who knows if Florida could avoid imposing an income tax if it has to meet so high an unfunded mandate?

The required increases in state spending are likely to be quite high in some states whose senators are swing votes on ObamaCare:

* In Arkansas, home to swing Sens. Mark Pryor and Blanche Lincoln, the annual increased state spending would come to $402 million (not counting the federal share) -- about a 10 percent increase in the state budget, which is now $4 billion a year.

* In Louisiana, whose Sen. Marie Landrieu sold her vote on a key procedural motion in return for more Medicaid funding, the increase would come to $432 million (a 5 percent hike in state spending) -- more than wiping out the extra funds she got in return for her vote.

* In Sen. Evan Bayh's Indiana, spending would go up by $586 million a year, a rise of 4 percent.

* In Sen. Ben Nelson's Nebraska, the added state spending would be $81 million a year, a 2 percent increase.

The Sebate ObamaCare bill would cost North Dakota, home of Sens. Kent Conrad and Byron Dorgan, $14 million. South Dakota, represented by Sen. Tim Johnson, would have to boost Medicaid spending by $33 million.

The Medicaid-expansion provisions of the Senate bill are complex. In the first year of the program (2013), states must enroll anyone who earns less than 133 percent of the poverty level in their programs. For a family of four, the national average poverty level in 2009 is $22,000 a year. So any family that size that makes less than $29,000 would be eligible for Medicaid.

Many states, particularly in the South, actually have Medicaid cutoffs below the poverty level. Arkansas, for example, cuts off its Medicaid eligibility at only 17 percent of poverty level, and in Louisiana it goes up to only 26 percent. For these states, the spending increase required by the new bill is huge.

For the first three years of the program (2013-15) the federal government would pay for all of the costs of the Medicaid expansion. But, starting in the fourth year of operation -- 2016 -- the average state would be obliged to pay 10 percent of the extra cost.

For Democrat governors, this provision means sudden death. Particularly in states with limited Medicaid coverage, it would require huge tax increases.

0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 01:07 pm
@okie,
Looked it up and North Korea 2008 was about 26.2 billion gdp, and so compared to South Korea at 888.024 billion gdp in 2006, the calculation reveals that the economic output of North Korea is about 3% that of South Korea. So, as I pointed out in the above, 100% of 3% is far less than perhaps 27% of 100%, actually about 1/9. Numbers prove that people work much harder and produce much more if self interest is directly involved, as compared to working for somebody else with no direct personal benefit. Not only do people work harder, they also work much more, far more efficiently, because it has been proven over and over that central planning is far less efficient than the manner in which free market forces dictate the process. The free market is far more efficient and responsive to demand and need.

Based upon the above ironclad principles and facts, it is clear than top down planning for our medical care is far more inefficient than us retaining our own decision making ability and responibility for our own health care.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 03:37 pm
@okie,
And your point is?
Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 03:49 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

And your point is?


That he needs to see millions of poor people unable to obtain basic medical care in order to feel better about himself.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 04:27 pm
@Wilso,
Okie's point is that central government management of a country's economy generates more "millions of poor people unable to obtain basic medical care in order for [MEMBERS OF CENTRAL GOVERNMENTS] to feel better about themselves."

Wilso, put aside the stupid accusations and think for yourself! Are the poor in North Korea--not yet murdered by their government--better or worse off than the poor in the USA?
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 04:33 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

Wilso, put aside the stupid accusations and think for yourself! Are the poor in North Korea--not yet murdered by their government--better or worse off than the poor in the USA?

Excellent point. And how well off are the folks in Cuba, even though they have government provided health care? And how well off were the people in Russia during Stalin's reign, wherein Stalin and his government were supposed to take care of everyone, during the time that millions of people were starving, I think it was tens of millions or hundreds of millions that starved.

Besides, we already have Medicaid here, a program for the truly poor, so if it is so wonderful, how come we need more government intervention? Simple but obvious question. And why not fix what we have already instead of creating more boondoggles and more problems, for which nobody knows where the money will come from or even how much it will cost. When was the last time any government program run efficiently and within budget?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 04:46 pm
@okie,
Have you never learned about the economic sanctions against Cuba?
mysteryman
 
  2  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 06:03 pm
@cicerone imposter,
The US has sanctions on Cuba, thats true.

BUT, what about the rest of the world?
Do they all have an embargo of Cuba?

Cant the rest of the world trade with them?And if they can, how is our embargo having any serious impact?
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 06:41 pm
@cicerone imposter,
What's Venezuela's excuse? Too much oil?
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 10:46 pm
@mysteryman,
mm, about the only thing that Cuba can grow or make that is any good at all is cigars. Yep, thats about it. Pretty sad, and it should be ample proof that centrally planned economies do not work hardly at all. Actually Cuba is just one of many many examples. If Obama and Congress would simply open their eyes wide enough to observe the obvious all around them, both now and in history, we could have some hope that this administration and Congress would cease and desist from their foolhardy initiatives.
JamesMorrison
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2009 10:01 am
@okie,
okie wrote:
Quote:
"mm, about the only thing that Cuba can grow or make that is any good at all is cigars. Yep, thats about it. Pretty sad, and it should be ample proof that centrally planned economies do not work hardly at all. Actually Cuba is just one of many many examples. If Obama and Congress would simply open their eyes wide enough to observe the obvious all around them, both now and in history, we could have some hope that this administration and Congress would cease and desist from their foolhardy initiatives. "


You’re being too kind to this administration. This Admin is populated with well educated people who are certainly capable of an unbiased analysis of history in both human behavior and economics if they choose to do so. One could make a small argument in favor of excusing their beliefs and behavior because of their exposure in and to liberal institutions, but this doesn't negate their intellectual responsibility to look at both sides of an issue using available facts.

Honestly, at this point, I feel that the latest developments in the “Climategate” debacle are a microcosm of the overall progressives "precautionary principle" (if the theory's conclusions are so terrible than we must act as if it is true even sans pertinent evidence). However, this only explains the motives of the true believers such as young impressionable college kids. Those in power whether they be President Obama, David Axelrod, Rahm Emanuel or Michael Mann and Phil Jones (who just recently was forced to step down from being head of the CRU) and their facilitators like William Ayers know what it is all about: Power, pure and simple. For it is the legal monopoly of force granted to our government that allows them to take from those who have earned their wealth and turn it over to those that have not so that they can then encourage those thieves to keep them in power. The courts have aided and abetted in this despite their responsibility to interpret the constitution as it is written. But I suspect you already this.

This explains this Admin's domestic behavior but its amateurish foreign policy is misinformed by Obama's exposure to liberal ideology who's whole modus operandi seems totally informed by the last Bush administration's actions and policies to wit:

1. When a decision and action has to be made do the opposite of what the Bush Admin did

2. If actually necessary, any action taken that parrots the previous Admin’s should be renamed. (War on Terror= Overseas Contingency Ops, etc)

3. Whenever a hard decision must be made (i.e. going against its liberal base's wishes) prolong it and ensure the electorate is reminded that the Admin 'inherited' the offending issue.

Corollary to 3 : split the difference between two opposing views (Biden's ‘over the horizon’ drones/ no troops) + (McCrystal's 40K-80K troop surge) = 30K time limited troop surglet

4. When all else fails just lie. (See Rumsfeld's response to Obama's charge that George Bush denied his general's troop requests in Af/Pak and Obama’s response [hint: none])

For this present Admin:

Domestic Agenda=European Socialism (at best)
Foreign Policy=Amateur hour (even Hilary would have tried to protect America's national interest's better than the current president has so far)


JM
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2009 11:07 am
@mysteryman,
You're too stupid and too venal to even attempt to find out.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2009 11:30 am
@okie,
Quote:
Pretty sad, and it should be ample proof that centrally planned economies do not work hardly at all. Actually Cuba is just one of many many examples.


Your ignorance knows no bounds, Okie. Have you heard of China, Sweden, Denmark, Vietnam, ... ?

Even with all the immense problems the US has caused Cuba including genocidal actions, Cuba still has better health care than the USA.

The Cuban system wasn't responsible for the recent world economic meltdown; profligate systems of "governance", and we must use that term lightly when it's being applied to the past US administration, were responsible.

Do try to think past the bullshit that you've avidly swilled from that bottomless trough of American propaganda for the past, whatever number of years.


JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2009 12:06 pm
Quote:
Buckley, thou shouldst be living at this hour!
January 18, 2009 @ 3:17 am · Filed by Geoff Nunberg under Language and advertising, Language and politics


If you want a sense of just what a hole the right finds itself in these days, consider the recent press release from the anti-abortion American Life League headed "KRISPY KREME CELEBRATES OBAMA WITH PRO-ABORTION DOUGHNUTS." It goes on to say:

The next time you stare down a conveyor belt of slow-moving, hot, sugary glazed donuts at your local Krispy Kreme you just might be supporting President-elect Barack Obama's radical support for abortion on demand… The doughnut giant released the following statement yesterday:

Krispy Kreme Doughnuts, Inc. (NYSE: KKD) is honoring American's sense of pride and freedom of choice on Inauguration Day, by offering a free doughnut of choice to every customer on this historic day, Jan. 20. By doing so, participating Krispy Kreme stores nationwide are making an oath to tasty goodies " just another reminder of how oh-so-sweet "free" can be.

…The unfortunate reality of a post Roe v. Wade America is that "choice" is synonymous with abortion access and celebration of 'freedom of choice' is a tacit endorsement of abortion rights on demand…. Celebrating [Obama's] inauguration with "Freedom of Choice" doughnuts " only two days before the anniversary of the Supreme Court decision to decriminalize abortion " is not only extremely tacky, it's disrespectful and insensitive and makes a mockery of a national tragedy.

A number of anti-abortion bloggers have joined the ALL in urging readers to make their indignation known to the company, while others have confined themselves to suggesting that the promotion was at best clueless. "To a majority of Americans," the commenter on one blog wrote, "the words ['freedom of choice'] do not connote liberty, or 'tasty goodies' or patriotism at all. These words are synonymous with the painful tragedy of abortion."

And conservatives wonder why their movement is in trouble?


"Freedom of choice": for more than a century, conservatives have been proudly marching under that device, for better or worse. It was in the name of workers' freedom of choice that they opposed compulsory Social Security contributions, the 40-hour week, and the closed and union shop; in the name of the consumer's freedom of choice that they opposed protectionism and truth-in-packaging regulations; in the name of hotel and restaurant owners' freedom of choice that they opposed laws prohibiting discrimination in public accommodations; in the name of the patient's freedom of choice that they've opposed single-payer health care; in the name of parents' and students' freedom of choice that they've supported school vouchers. And above all, they've persistently " and properly " extolled freedom of choice as the motor force of capitalism, "the immutable law of the free marketplace," as George Romney said in a 1959 Rambler advertisement.

And now after thirty years of conservative ascendancy, a donut company uses "Freedom of Choice" in a promotion and the only thing that comes to the mind of numerous people who style themselves "cultural conservatives" is the slogan used by abortion rights groups? Karl Rove has got a lot to answer for.

January 18, 2009 @ 3:17 am · Filed by Geoff Nunberg under Language and advertising, Language and politics

http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1030
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2009 12:20 pm
@JTT,
JTT, I quit responding to mm's questions, because they are so juvenile and stupid. And I agree; he is "too stupid."
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2009 12:27 pm
@JTT,
okie uses Limbaugh and FOX news for his facts; what can he possibly understand anything about anything to repeat them here; he's a dork first class.

He believes in the obstructionist party (the No Party/GOP), death panels, birthers, and tea parties. He also believes one president can transform our economy from capitalism to socialism. He's the only a2ker who can predict Obama's rating as a president before the first year in office (actually, he's been lambasting Obama since the first few months of his presidency).

His ignorance knows no bounds. His claims are never backed up with facts or evidence, only his overgrown imagination.

How he managed to graduate from any school is a mystery of our times. His reality belongs not on earth as a living, breathing, animal, but someplace out in the stratosphere where he can exchange ideas with angels.
 

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