55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
JPB
 
  5  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 04:51 pm
@Foxfyre,
Sigh all you want, fox. Your arrogant name-calling and labeling of anyone who disagrees with you only goes to demonstrate just how deep your selfishness runs. You've got adequate coverage on the public dollar and would deny the same to those without medical benefits. Not only that, you've called for the nationalizing of regulating the insurance industry (which is currently regulated by the states) so that you and the Stud can move across state lines and not be inconvenienced. It seems to me that Big Government is a-ok with Fox when Fox is the beneficiary but a major NO when you've already got yours.
old europe
 
  2  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 05:08 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
old europe wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
The people are already demanding it. Yes the question is intentionally leading, but at least it is specific and should advise Congress that this is what the people want and that would be the purpose for asking it.

Well, it seems that I was talking about polls, whereas you were talking about push polls. No wonder we're talking past each other.

You seem to be talking about polls that fish for a certain answer.

No, I'm referring to a political campaign technique in which an individual or organization attempts to influence or alter the view of respondents under the guise of conducting a poll. I also provided a link in case someone didn't know what "push poll" refers to.

Foxfyre wrote:
I am talking about polls that inform the leaders what the people are thinking and/or what the people want so that the leaders cannot manufacture what the people think or what the people want out of thin air as so many are prone to do. It is no different than asking for a show of hands: How many want . . . .

Then why would you ask a question that "is intentionally leading", as you already admitted? Why not ask question that are as neutral as possible?

Foxfyre wrote:
No. The subject is too broad and encompasses too wide a scope of possibilities. Unless you know what is intended by tort reform, there is no way to know whether you are voting for something you do agree with or something that you do not agree with.

So what? There's a chance that people have no idea what tort reform is. They always have the possibility to state that they have no opinion on the matter.

If you have to educate them first by telling them what you're hoping to accomplish, you're campaigning. You're presenting your point of view, and then ask people what they think about it. That's what the poll I posted about earlier did: it asked people whether or not they supported Obama's health reform, then briefly explained the reform plans, and then asked them the question again.

As you can see, this changed the outcome of the poll.

If you want to get a good reading of people's opinion rather than propagate your point of view, there's nothing wrong about simply asking people whether or not they support tort reform.

Foxfyre wrote:
old europe wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
I agree I could have phrased my question in a way to be less leading. But it was no more leading than your question of an expectation of reduced insurance premiums.

It was more leading, because it implied a certain outcome of an action that the question was about without asking people whether or not they agreed with the stated outcome. My question simply asked whether people agree with a certain expected outcome.

And if the respondent voted 'no', you would have no clue what he or she wanted in the way of tort reform making the question useless.

If a respondent answers "no" to the question "Do you want Congress to enact meaningful tort reform that will help insurance companies reduce premiums?", you wouldn't have a clue about what he or she wanted in the way of tort reform either. Maybe the respondent wants Congress to enact meaningful tort reform, but wants Congress to do so in order to increase the profit margin of doctors. You have no way of determining what the respondent intended by answering "no".

Foxfyre wrote:
To generate a 'no' vote of course would be the motive of those who do not want tort reform and could use the poll as ammunition to lobby against it.

To generate a 'yes' vote of course would be the motive of those who want tort reform and could use the poll as ammunition to lobby for it.
Debra Law
 
  3  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 05:09 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
You shouldn't have to pay my bills or for my healthcare if I didn't adequately prepare for my elder years.


Most working people can NEVER "adequately" prepare for the consequences of failing health no matter how diligently they try to do so. My own mother purchased a high quality health insurance plan. The monthly premium ate up more than 30 percent of her gross income. She was frugal. She purchased a modest townhouse. Her monthly payment on her townhouse was far less than her monthly health insurance premium. She paid off her car. She purchased a very nice pre-paid burial plan. She saved many thousands of dollars. She lost EVERYTHING she had--was even forced to cash in her pre-paid burial plan--when her disease progressed to the point where needed skilled nursing care 24/7. Her health insurance company dropped her like a hot potato.

What should our society do with people like my mother--who did everything in her power to prepare for illness and old age--but inevitably came up short?
Cycloptichorn
 
  4  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 05:11 pm
@Debra Law,
Debra Law wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
You shouldn't have to pay my bills or for my healthcare if I didn't adequately prepare for my elder years.


Most working people can NEVER "adequately" prepare for the consequences of failing health no matter how diligently they try to do so. My own mother purchased a high quality health insurance plan. The monthly premium ate up more than 30 percent of her gross income. She was frugal. She purchased a modest townhouse. Her monthly payment on her townhouse was far less than her monthly health insurance premium. She paid off her car. She purchased a very nice pre-paid burial plan. She saved many thousands of dollars. She lost EVERYTHING she had--was even forced to cash in her pre-paid burial plan--when her disease progressed to the point where needed skilled nursing care 24/7. Her health insurance company dropped her like a hot potato.

What should our society do with people like my mother--who did everything in her power to prepare for illness and old age--but inevitably came up short?



Charity. That's their answer - they want you to have to beg others for help.

A world in which those who need help have to come begging to those who have been luckier in life suits Conservatives just fine, for that's essentially how they already see the world.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 05:13 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

Sigh all you want, fox. Your arrogant name-calling and labeling of anyone who disagrees with you only goes to demonstrate just how deep your selfishness runs. You've got adequate coverage on the public dollar and would deny the same to those without medical benefits. Not only that, you've called for the nationalizing of regulating the insurance industry (which is currently regulated by the states) so that you and the Stud can move across state lines and not be inconvenienced. It seems to me that Big Government is a-ok with Fox when Fox is the beneficiary but a major NO when you've already got yours.


Who did I call a name? I describe behavior of those who are accusing me of all sorts of ridiculous stuff, yes, but I haven't called you any names. And what did I possibly say that would prompt your so generous observation that big government is a-ok with me when I am the beneficiary? What did I say that could possibly have given you that impression?

And yes. It would be really nice to be able to move a few miles into West Texas and be closer to one of our kids and his family, but if we do so we lose our excellent doctors and medical facilities here. El Stud is a cancer survivor so excuse me if that is a consideration in not wanting to leave a doctor we trust to keep him healthy, even alive. The way the law is now however, we cannot live in Texas and use the same insurance which means we lose our doctor. But according to you, I am some sort of evil creature who would like the law to be changed so that we could move four hours away and not have to give up our insurance or doctor.

What possible objection do you have to that even as you call me arrogant and selfish and accuse me of denying others of healthcare? All you say when you say really stupid stuff like that is a) you aren't reading what I am writing or b) you have a serious reading comprehension problem.

For the record, I am selfish about what I willingly allow others to take from me for their own purposes. I selfishly think the Constitution intended private property to be mostly involate and that charity is giving benevolence willingly and not having property confiscated by the government.

I do not wish to deny healthcare or any other important necessities of life to anybody, and I defy anyone to show where I ever suggested such a thing. I have devoted a good deal of my life helping people to obtain certain necessities of life.

I certainly have not called for nationalization of the insurance companies. I am actively lobbying specifically against that. I would like the law changed so that insurance companies would be allowed to compete across state lines because I think that would make the system more affordable and efficient for everybody. But because it would be a good thing for me too, I suppose in your eyes that brands me with another scarlet letter.

Using your line of reasoning, you feel perfectly righteous in accusing me of all sorts of things and calling me all sorts of names and denying me anything of any nature that I want because I dare to argue a point of view different from yours. Is that how it is?
Cycloptichorn
 
  6  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 05:21 pm
@Foxfyre,
Fox, if you spent more time actually reading - and attempting to comprehend - others' arguments, you wouldn't make mistakes like this one:

Quote:

I certainly have not called for nationalization of the insurance companies. I am actively lobbying specifically against that. I would like the law changed so that insurance companies would be allowed to compete across state lines because I think that would make the system more affordable and efficient for everybody. But because it would be a good thing for me too, I suppose in your eyes that brands me with another scarlet letter.


But, JPB didn't say 'nationalization of the insurance companies.' She said:

Quote:

nationalizing of regulating the insurance industry


Which is exactly what you are calling for when you say:

Quote:
I would like the law changed so that insurance companies would be allowed to compete across state lines


Embarrassing for you. I wonder if you'll review this and decide that you are a numbnut who is incapable of following others' arguments.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 05:25 pm
@old europe,
old europe wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
old europe wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
The people are already demanding it. Yes the question is intentionally leading, but at least it is specific and should advise Congress that this is what the people want and that would be the purpose for asking it.

Well, it seems that I was talking about polls, whereas you were talking about push polls. No wonder we're talking past each other.

You seem to be talking about polls that fish for a certain answer.

No, I'm referring to a political campaign technique in which an individual or organization attempts to influence or alter the view of respondents under the guise of conducting a poll. I also provided a link in case someone didn't know what "push poll" refers to.


I'm not talking campaign mode here. I am talking about legislators wanting to know and caring about what their constituency thinks. Since I believe most people--at least those who understand what it is-- do want appropriate tort reform included in the healthcare legislation, it is appropriate to "push" (as you call it) for that to be included. You can balance it perfectly well with a 'push' for an opposing answer, but I'm pretty sure it would not produce the same results.

Quote:
Foxfyre wrote:
I am talking about polls that inform the leaders what the people are thinking and/or what the people want so that the leaders cannot manufacture what the people think or what the people want out of thin air as so many are prone to do. It is no different than asking for a show of hands: How many want . . . .

Then why would you ask a question that "is intentionally leading", as you already admitted? Why not ask question that are as neutral as possible?


There is no way to ask a neutral question about tort reform because the subject is too broad. There is a way to ask if the people think that certain kinds of tort reform would help reduce healthcare costs and insurance premiums. If you want to know if that is what they think, you ask if that is what they think. If you don't care what they think you go to great lengths to make sure the question is not asked or criticize those who ask it.

Quote:
Foxfyre wrote:
No. The subject is too broad and encompasses too wide a scope of possibilities. Unless you know what is intended by tort reform, there is no way to know whether you are voting for something you do agree with or something that you do not agree with.

So what? There's a chance that people have no idea what tort reform is. They always have the possibility to state that they have no opinion on the matter.

If you have to educate them first by telling them what you're hoping to accomplish, you're campaigning. You're presenting your point of view, and then ask people what they think about it. That's what the poll I posted about earlier did: it asked people whether or not they supported Obama's health reform, then briefly explained the reform plans, and then asked them the question again.

As you can see, this changed the outcome of the poll.

If you want to get a good reading of people's opinion rather than propagate your point of view, there's nothing wrong about simply asking people whether or not they support tort reform.


I refer to my immediately previous comment. If you don't care why the people are angry and protesting at the tea parties or in the streets of Washington, you ask if they are in favor of tort reform. And when they say yes, then you can ambiguously state that you'll have it researched and move on as if you are being responsive. It's quickly swept under the rug where it won't see the light of day for many more years.

If you do care, you ask. You find out what they are angry about and you address that whether or not anything can realistically be done about it or should.

Quote:
Foxfyre wrote:
old europe wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
I agree I could have phrased my question in a way to be less leading. But it was no more leading than your question of an expectation of reduced insurance premiums.

It was more leading, because it implied a certain outcome of an action that the question was about without asking people whether or not they agreed with the stated outcome. My question simply asked whether people agree with a certain expected outcome.

And if the respondent voted 'no', you would have no clue what he or she wanted in the way of tort reform making the question useless.

If a respondent answers "no" to the question "Do you want Congress to enact meaningful tort reform that will help insurance companies reduce premiums?", you wouldn't have a clue about what he or she wanted in the way of tort reform either. Maybe the respondent wants Congress to enact meaningful tort reform, but wants Congress to do so in order to increase the profit margin of doctors. You have no way of determining what the respondent intended by answering "no".


If you don't want to know or don't care what the people are thinking or care about, you dodge, weave, divert, obscure, obfuscate, and avoid discussion of the actual subject. If you do want to know and you do care you allow the question to be asked and you allow the debate to happen.

Quote:
Foxfyre wrote:
To generate a 'no' vote of course would be the motive of those who do not want tort reform and could use the poll as ammunition to lobby against it.

To generate a 'yes' vote of course would be the motive of those who want tort reform and could use the poll as ammunition to lobby for it.


Or the motive could be to get the issue out there and have it thoroughly aired, debated, discussed, defended, or disputed honestly, thoroughly, and openly. And wouldn't that be a refreshing thing to happen.
old europe
 
  3  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 05:30 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
There is a way to ask if the people think that certain kinds of tort reform would help reduce healthcare costs and insurance premiums.


Yes, there is. You could ask "Do you think that certain kinds of tort reform would help reduce healthcare costs and insurance premiums?"
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 05:39 pm
@old europe,
old europe wrote:

Quote:
There is a way to ask if the people think that certain kinds of tort reform would help reduce healthcare costs and insurance premiums.


Yes, there is. You could ask "Do you think that certain kinds of tort reform would help reduce healthcare costs and insurance premiums?"


But my intent was to specify what those certain kinds of tort reform would be.
old europe
 
  5  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 05:42 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
old europe wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
To generate a 'no' vote of course would be the motive of those who do not want tort reform and could use the poll as ammunition to lobby against it.

To generate a 'yes' vote of course would be the motive of those who want tort reform and could use the poll as ammunition to lobby for it.

Or the motive could be to get the issue out there and have it thoroughly aired, debated, discussed, defended, or disputed honestly, thoroughly, and openly. And wouldn't that be a refreshing thing to happen.


Also, I have to say that this is incredibly funny! Apparently, intentionally skewing the results towards one side constitutes a sinister move to use the poll as ammunition for partisan lobbying, while intentionally skewing the results towards the other side constitutes a move to thoroughly and openly air, debate, discuss, defend or dispute the topic at hand.

Nothing wrong with asked leading questions to generate certain results, as long as the results coincide with your opinions, eh?

Laughing
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 05:42 pm
On the issue of the insurance companies, here is one that should make hearts go pitter pat in all of you who hate insurance companies, but there are are solid points here:

Quote:
Break Local Monopolies by Letting Insurers Compete across State Lines
by Michael F. Cannon

Michael F. Cannon is director of health policy studies at the libertarian Cato Institute and the coauthor of Healthy Competition: What's Holding Back Health Care and How to Free It.

September 17, 2009

This article appeared in the Los Angeles Times on September 16, 2009.

This article is the first of a three part series.

"Fannie Med" is all but dead. Good riddance.

President Obama's "government option" had no business being part of health reform. It was more radical than the Clinton health plan, which the American people soundly rejected. Of course the government's special advantages would drive private insurers out of business, a point that honest supporters readily admit. But the real problem is that the government plan would have increased costs and suppressed quality for all patients, publicly and privately insured.

What's more, the votes just aren't there. Somebody tell Democratic Sen. Max Baucus he can stop performing CPR. Have GOP Sen. Olympia Snowe call the time of death. And let's move on, because there are real solutions to be had.

Though misguided, the government option tapped into palpable frustrations. Private insurance doesn't provide the affordable, secure coverage that consumers want. Invariably, the problem is inane government policies that protect insurance companies from competition.

Why do insurance companies sell to employers rather than compete for every last consumer? Because unless we surrender our earnings and our coverage decisions to an employer, the federal government hits us with a major tax penalty, as we must use after-tax income to buy individual polices (as opposed to the before-tax paycheck deductions employers make to pay for coverage). The fact that most health insurance disappears at the moment we most need it " when we lose our jobs " is just one indication the system is rigged to serve someone other than us.

Let the workers control those earnings and choose secure health plans, and we will ruthlessly drive from the market insurers who overcharge us or shirk on their commitments to care for the sick. As the president recommends, there are reforms that can get us there gradually, with minimal disruption.

Obama says there isn't enough competition among insurance companies. And he's right: Each state protects its domestic insurers from competition by barring entry to products licensed by other states. If you live in California, you can't buy a less-expensive policy available in Nevada.

According to one estimate, Congress could extend coverage to about a third of the uninsured simply by sweeping away those barriers to interstate competition. It wouldn't even have to raise taxes or create a single new government subsidy.

If one new competitor would "keep insurance companies honest," imagine what dozens of new competitors would do.

Instead of holding the insurance companies' feet to the fire, however, Democrats plan to enact rules that the incumbent insurers want " rules that would further protect them from competition.

The House and Senate legislation would make health insurance compulsory for most or all Americans, with heavy subsidies to help them afford it. Handing private insurers a guaranteed and heavily subsidized customer base would amount to an unjustified windfall for an industry that isn't exactly struggling. Regulations on pricing and benefits would further protect insurers from competition by standardizing product design.

Is it any wonder the insurance companies support compulsory health insurance?

Everyone from libertarians to single-payer advocates can agree:
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=10553
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  2  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 05:44 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

old europe wrote:

Quote:
There is a way to ask if the people think that certain kinds of tort reform would help reduce healthcare costs and insurance premiums.


Yes, there is. You could ask "Do you think that certain kinds of tort reform would help reduce healthcare costs and insurance premiums?"


But my intent was to specify what those certain kinds of tort reform would be.


That's funny, because your original question did not specify what those certain kinds of tort reform would be. It merely implied that tort reform would lower insurance premiums.
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 05:48 pm
@old europe,
old europe wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

old europe wrote:

Quote:
There is a way to ask if the people think that certain kinds of tort reform would help reduce healthcare costs and insurance premiums.


Yes, there is. You could ask "Do you think that certain kinds of tort reform would help reduce healthcare costs and insurance premiums?"


But my intent was to specify what those certain kinds of tort reform would be.


That's funny, because your original question did not specify what those certain kinds of tort reform would be. It merely implied that tort reform would lower insurance premiums.


Whatever. To me that's specific. To you it is obviously something else, but since you are obviously not interested in discussing the topic, why don't we move on now?
old europe
 
  4  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 06:01 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
Whatever. To me that's specific. To you it is obviously something else, but since you are obviously not interested in discussing the topic, why don't we move on now?


The question "Do you want Congress to enact meaningful tort reform that will help insurance companies reduce premiums?" specifies what those certain kinds of tort reform would be. Gotcha.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Sep, 2009 07:28 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Whatever. To me that's specific. To you it is obviously something else, but since you are obviously not interested in discussing the topic, why don't we move on now?

One last question: would it be specific if President Obama said it?
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  5  
Reply Thu 24 Sep, 2009 07:38 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

The government, however, does underwrite flood insurance and earthquake insurance, and this does not compete with the private sector who doesn't want that kind of business.

Ah yes, a public option.

Quote:
Just as it does with flood and earthquake insurance, however, the government, however, could offer high risk, catastrophic kinds of policies without competing with private insurance companies and that would provide a useful service for everybody. Is that option on the table for consideration? Nope.

So you're in favor of the taxpayers assuming high risk so that insurance companies can continue to make profits. The fact is that the government has to offer these policies because the insurance companies can't meet the needs of these people. The same goes for health care -- insurance companies are not meeting our needs. Now tell me why the tax payers have to assume risks that profit-making enterprises won't. If we have public insurance for these very high risk policies, why can't we offset those losses by offering policies to lower risk applicants?
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Thu 24 Sep, 2009 09:23 am
@FreeDuck,
I think you are not quite grasping the point here.

Private insurance did not want to assume the unreasonable risk (to them) of insuring San Francisco or Los Angeles or San Diego for damage from a severe earthquake and private insurance did not want to assume the unreasonable risk (to them) of insuring Des Moines or New Orleans against flood damage. The states of course could have written regulations to make that mandatory for any company writing insurance in those states, but the insurance companies simply then choose not to do business in those high risk states at all. That hurts everybody.

So, to remedy the situation, the federal government set up its own system by which the people could BUY--they aren't given, they BUY--the additional flood or earthquake insurance if they need it. A person who lives on a hilltop is not likely to need flood insurance . A farmer in Nebraska has essentially zero risk of damage from an earthquake and does not need earthquake insurance. The rates for those who do need it is not cheap and is based on a scale of probability of risk which reduces the risk to the taxpayer.

Because the federal government is making that kind of coverage available to those who need it, insurance companies are willing to accept the reasonable risk of providing homeowners insurance that everybody everywhere has, and they can do that at a much lower rate than they otherwise could do. That benefits everybody probably more than the risk involved and that is what justifies the government providing that service.

In this case the government is providing only that which cannot be provided more efficiently, effectively, or economically by the private sector.

I have no problem with the government providing the kinds of health insurance; i.e. catstrophic coverage etc., that the insurance companies would prefer not to offer and, in the case of certain pre-existing conditions, are not willing to offer. So a 'public option' dealing strictly with that would allow the insurance companies to offer routine coverage at a much lower rate than they can now do. Again, the government would be doing only that which cannot be provided more efficiently effectively, or economically by the private sector.

I have been accused, quite unkindly and unnecessarily hatefully, of wanting to impose additional government regulations on the insurance industry. But a law allowing insurance companies to compete across state lines would add a factor of healthy competition that almost certainly would break up oppressive monopolies in some states and would almost certainly reduce rates. Even President Obama acknowledges that. Remove the ability of old boy networks in the states to profit from monopolies, and they go away. Add in the GOP plan to make health insurance individually owned instead of employer owned, and you eliminate a lot of oppressive union power and make insurance portable while not eliminating the employer's ability to make paying for insurance coverage a benefit if they choose to do so. Add in the tort reform that all thinking people know is necessary, and a great deal of the broken system will be fixed without costing the taxpayer a dime.

Once such reasonable reforms are enacted, then President Obama can give the insurance companies an ultimatum. Okay, we've given you the opportunities and protections that you need. Now come up with affordable health care policies for the people or we will be forced to allow government systems to compete with you. And he can tell the people that you will be expected to have insurance when you show up at the doctor's office or the emergency room. If you do not, you can be assessed the cost of your healthcare if it takes you the rest of your life to pay it off. The government does that with taxes owed. It can do that with healthcare. And such enforcement of consequences for the choices people make would not in any way hinder their freedom or put any kind of unnecessary mandatory requirement on them.

Cycloptichorn
 
  4  
Reply Thu 24 Sep, 2009 09:36 am
@Foxfyre,
Quote:


In this case the government is providing only that which cannot be provided more efficiently, effectively, or economically by the private sector.


Great; single-payer health care for all, then! For I'm sure you understand that the private sector cannot provide health insurance more efficiently, effectively, or economically than the government can.

This is the entire complaint of the insurance industry, right - that the government's lack of a profit motive will put them out of business. That's basically an admission that the gov't can do the job, cheaper, than private industry. So what's the beef with it?

Cycloptichorn
FreeDuck
 
  6  
Reply Thu 24 Sep, 2009 09:57 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

So, to remedy the situation, the federal government set up its own system by which the people could BUY--they aren't given, they BUY--the additional flood or earthquake insurance if they need it.

Public. Option.

Quote:
A person who lives on a hilltop is not likely to need flood insurance . A farmer in Nebraska has essentially zero risk of damage from an earthquake and does not need earthquake insurance. The rates for those who do need it is not cheap and is based on a scale of probability of risk which reduces the risk to the taxpayer.

If it's risky to the insurance company then it's risky to the taxpayer. Reducing the risk is nice, but it doesn't change the fact that taxpayers are assuming risks that insurance companies won't.

Quote:
Because the federal government is making that kind of coverage available to those who need it, insurance companies are willing to accept the reasonable risk of providing homeowners insurance that everybody everywhere has, and they can do that at a much lower rate than they otherwise could do. That benefits everybody probably more than the risk involved and that is what justifies the government providing that service.

Because the federal government is assuming the high risk customers, the insurance companies are free to continue to profit by collecting premiums for policies that are not likely to be collected on.

Quote:
In this case the government is providing only that which cannot be provided more efficiently, effectively, or economically by the private sector.

Health insurance is the same. The people with pre-existing conditions or who are self-employed, or any number of prohibitive reasons cannot be covered by private insurance. Therefore it is reasonable for the government to offer a public option for them. However, if the government (taxpayer) is assuming this risk that insurance companies will not, then I think it's reasonable that I should be allowed to throw my hat in the pool, as a lower risk customer, to help offset that risk. After all, I have an interest in maintaining the solvency of such a program.

Quote:
I have no problem with the government providing the kinds of health insurance; i.e. catstrophic coverage etc., that the insurance companies would prefer not to offer and, in the case of certain pre-existing conditions, are not willing to offer. So a 'public option' dealing strictly with that would allow the insurance companies to offer routine coverage at a much lower rate than they can now do.

Doubtful it would change the current rates as the insurance companies don't now cover these people, so what would change for them?

Quote:
Again, the government would be doing only that which cannot be provided more efficiently effectively, or economically by the private sector.

In my opinion that applies to all health insurance. The private sector cannot provide health insurance (care) more efficiently than the government can, which is why private health insurance does not want to compete against a public option. If the government entered the health insurance market for the young, healthy, and able to pay (it's already in the health insurance market for everyone else) then surely your market forces would enforce your rule above. If the government option were not as efficient, effective, or economical as private insurance then they wouldn't get many customers, thus preventing them from "staying in business" in that market.

Quote:
But a law allowing insurance companies to compete across state lines would add a factor of healthy competition that almost certainly would break up oppressive monopolies in some states and would almost certainly reduce rates.

I'm all for breaking up monopolies but it seems like that could be done without removing the power to regulate the insurance industry from the states and giving it to the feds. Some 30 years or so ago we did what you suggest with credit card companies. The effect was one of regulation by lowest common denominator and in the long run it hurt consumers and the economy.

Quote:
Add in the GOP plan to make health insurance individually owned instead of employer owned, and you eliminate a lot of oppressive union power and make insurance portable while not eliminating the employer's ability to make paying for insurance coverage a benefit if they choose to do so.

What exactly does this mean "individually owned"? We can by individual policies now, it's just that no-one can afford them. We have COBRA now, but no-one can afford it. The whole reason why employer provided care is so prevalent is because individuals cannot afford to purchase it independently.

Quote:
Add in the tort reform that all thinking people know is necessary, and a great deal of the broken system will be fixed without costing the taxpayer a dime.

What kinds of tort reforms?

ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Thu 24 Sep, 2009 01:02 pm
Quote:

[email protected]
Turn Up the Heat NOW on the Senate Finance Committee!
Greetings Fellow Patriots,
I hope you all have recovered from the 9.12 event that took place. It certainly was an amazing event and weekend. Even if you were not in DC, most, if not all of you, attended local events. Overall, the weekend of 9.12 was very successful! Job well done my fellow Patriots!

We have great momentum coming off a historic event, but that does not mean that we can let up on applying pressure to our elected officials. They are going full speed ahead trying to get this health care legislation passed, so we have to turn up the heat!

Right now, the Senate has legislation in the Senate Finance Committee and this is where we need to focus our efforts. We need your help in emailing the Senators of the Senate Finance Committee members.

We have three simple messages for them:
1. No Government Run Health Care

2. No Mandate

3. No Reconciliation/Fast Track (using reconciliation for health care reform is corrupt)

These three simple messages are what we need to get across to these Senators and their staffers. Will you please do your part by emailing these Senators on Thursday? Will you continue your effort by calling the Senators' offices on Friday and speaking with their staffers?

When calling and emailing, remember the three simple messages listed above. Be sure to let the staffers know who you are in your community, whether you are a business owner, community leader, teacher, nurse, policeman, fireman, veteran, etc. and why government run health care is not good for you and your family, as well as not good for America.

You should also note that yesterday, Senate Finance Committee Democrats rejected a GOP amendment that would have required a health overhaul bill to be available online for 72 hours before the committee votes. The GOP members of the Senate Finance Committee argued that transparency is an Obama administration goal and that their constituents are demanding that they read bills before voting. The Democrats on the Committee rejected the amendment, so the bill will not be available online before being voted on by the Committee. That is transparency for you! You can read more about it here.

Patriots, it is up to us to stop the government takeover of health care. Please do your part by emailing on Thursday and making calls on Friday. Time is of the essence and we need to turn up the heat NOW!

All members of the Senate Finance Committee are listed below. I have made it easy for you by giving you the numbers for each of their DC offices, as well as the local district offices. To email them, please click on their name and it will take you to their website. Once on the website, just click on "Contact" and you will be taken to the email form. I am working on obtaining email addresses for all of their Chiefs of Staffs and once I receive that information, I will gladly send it out to you.

Thank you for your support and commitment to Tea Party Patriots and the cause! You are all incredible Patriots and we are blessed to have you on our team. Together, we will make a difference! Keep up the good work. If there is anything you need, please let us know. We are here for you!

Have a great day!
Amy

Tea Party Patriots National Coordinator Team,
Amy Kremer ([email protected], 678-495-8271, gchat: amykremer)
Jenny Beth Martin ([email protected], 404-326-096, gchat: jennybethm)
Mark Meckler ([email protected])
Rob Neppell ([email protected])


 

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