55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
blatham
 
  2  
Reply Sat 18 Oct, 2008 09:18 am
Are these folks 'true conservatives'?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPg0VCg4AEQ&eurl=http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/
blatham
 
  2  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 09:02 am
@blatham,
Colin Powell sure as hell ain't no genuine conservative. Not like those folks in the video above.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 10:06 am
So what should they do when Obama supporters are heckling them and goading them on? Where are the subtitles of what hecklers were yelling at citizens headed into a McCain or Palin rally? Some people get stupid in those kinds of exchanges whether they are liberal or conservative. Just look at some of the posts on this thread and elsewhere from the more juvenile set if you need proof. The Obama supporters never seem to put out any Youtube clips showing that the vast majority are rational, normal people. Nope, they seek out the random nut or ignorant type, selectively edit, and cherry pick quotes and flout those as typical knowing that the highly partisan and infinitely gullible or perhaps blatantly dishonest on message boards et al will pick up that banner and present it as the real deal.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 10:33 am
Now, I would very much appreciate the focus to be turned to WHAT is modern conservatism and the merits or lack thereof of that rather than attempts by liberals to make this another bashing thread of whomever.

Of course that assumes that liberals are capable of considering a subject without throwing their hate and loathing of anything or anybody non-liberal into it?
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 11:12 am
@Foxfyre,
Seems, Powell became such a person - loading all his hate, seeking out the random nut, selectively editing, cherry picking quotes ... . Or something like that, I suppose.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 11:26 am
@Foxfyre,
Obama-liberals have repeatedly demonstrated that they are incapable of "considering a subject without throwing their hate and loathing of anything or anybody non-Obama liberal into it?"

I admit that I for one do not understand what is meant by the term "modern conservatism." Nor am I comfortable even speculating what it is. I do know for a certainty that I want to conserve our federal government's ability to secure our unalienable rights--specified in America's Declaration of Independence--and the specifications by our Constitution of the powers--as lawfully amended--Americans have granted to our federal government to secure those rights. Another way for me to say it, is I want "modern conservatism" to seek to conserve what I said I want conserved.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 12:03 pm
@ican711nm,
Some Obama liberals can, Ican. Unfortunately they probably long ago voted down this thread, maybe during one of the intermittant troll attacks or schoolyard insult sessions, and no longer see it. And because of the way A2K is set up now, newbies coming in won't see it either because their default is set to not show threads with 5 or more vote downs. That is one major problem I see with the current system. Popular active threads will have received enough negative votes to remove them from the newbie's view who would likely otherwise enjoy joining in. But oh well. . . .

Way back early in the thread, I defined modern conservatism as pretty much classical liberalism as illustrated in the writings of John Locke, Adam Smith, David Hume, David Ricardo, Voltaire, Montesquieu, among others. Is is essentially a doctrine of individual freedom and limited government based on a core principle of rationality, individual property rights, natural rights, the protection of civil liberties, constitutional limitation of government, free markets, and individual freedom from restraint.

And that would allow for all of your list:

1. The federal government is for the people, of the people, and by the people as the means by which the unalienable, civil, legal, and Constitutional rights of the people are protected, an orderly society is maintained, and the life and property of the citizens are defended. The government should do only that which cannot be done more efficiently and effectively by the private sector.

2. In all matters that do not affect the unalienable, civil, legal, and Constitutional rights of the people, the majority opinion should prevail. By that means, the shared values of the community will the norm and can prevail as the majority prefers.

3. Change that improves on the current conditions/situation/enviroment etc. should be encouraged and embraced by majority consent; those values that have proved their worth as beneficial to the whole should be preserved by majority consent.

4. Shared infrastruture and common services beneficial to the whole are within the legitimate scope of government. Otherwise, within the shared laws of the community, the individual is the best judge of how to use his own property and prosperity toward the pursuit of happiness.

Disclaimer: My definition is not the last word and is subject to introspection, analysis, critique, amendment, or whatever.

ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 12:23 pm
@Foxfyre,
Thank you, Foxfyre for reviewing what you think is modern conservatism. I think that is exactly what modern conservatism ought to be. I wish that what you and I think ought to be modern conservatism were actually what a majority of those calling themselves conservatives today also think it ought to be. However, too often too many seem to me to be alleging it's something else (e.g., go-along-to-get-along conservatism, compassionate conservatism, buy-votes conservatism, etc.).
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 12:27 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

Thank you, Foxfyre for reviewing what you think is modern conservatism. I think that is exactly what modern conservatism ought to be. I wish that what you and I think is modern conservatism were actually what a majority of those calling themselves conservatives today also think it is. However, too often too many seem to me to be alleging it's something else (e.g., go-along-to-get-along conservatism, compassionate conservatism, buy-votes conservatism, etc.).


Or......to put it more succinctly, what some try to pass for conservatism is in fact mostly modern liberalism.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 12:41 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyer wrote:
Or......to put it more succinctly, what some try to pass for conservatism is in fact mostly modern liberalism.

I would say much of today's modern conservatism is now mostly a status quo kind of socialsim masquerading as conservatism. But drop the status quo part and we have what is mostly modern liberalism.
parados
 
  3  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 02:42 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:

Or......to put it more succinctly, what some try to pass for conservatism is in fact mostly modern liberalism.


I think a more succinct way would be to say. "If you no longer agree with us then you are no longer one of us."

But it really starts to make your circle smaller and smaller.
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 02:56 pm
@parados,
The kind of "you wouldn't think that if you thought like us" mentality.

Not a lot of room for dissent amongst the conservatives these days. I'd rather be a liberal/progressive bickering amongst the democratic party but finding a way through it all, than be a part of a group that tells me what I have to think.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 04:17 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
Now, I would very much appreciate the focus to be turned to WHAT is modern conservatism and the merits or lack thereof of that <snip>

Of course that assumes that liberals are capable of considering a subject without throwing their hate and loathing of anything or anybody non-liberal into it?


I don't think liberals need to help with the heat inside the American conservative/Republican community.

There's enough trouble there already.

The prospect of a McCain loss has the Republican Party angrily turning on itself. Can the eggheads and the Joe Six-Packs get along?

Quote:
With the prospect of defeat for John McCain growing more likely every day, the GOP destined to see its numbers reduced in both the House and Senate, and the Republican brand debased to the point of bankruptcy, the conservative intelligentsia is factionalized and feuding, criminating and recriminating, in a way that few of its members can recall in their political lifetimes. Populists attack Establishmentarians. Neocons assail theocons. And virtually everyone has something harsh to say about the party’s standard-bearer.

<snip>

When the weapons of choice shift from pistols to Uzis after November 4, <snip> for Republicans it will be a necessary passage toward either the revival or reinvention of conservatism. Nobody serious on the right doubts that the overhaul is at once required and bound to be arduous"but it may take longer and prove even bloodier than anyone now imagines.


<snip>

Quote:
Not surprisingly, Sarracuda’s foes on the right dismiss the counter-backlash more or less out of hand. When I ask Frum about the apparent class overtones of the anti-anti-Palin argument, he deems it a mere “rhetorical trope.” What he hears instead is the sound of defeatism. “The people who defend her have already given up any serious thought of Republicans’ wielding governmental power anytime soon,” Frum says. “They have already moved to a position of pure cultural symbolic opposition to a new majority. The people who criticize her do so because we have some hope that we could be in contention in 2012, and there’s some risk that she could be the party’s nominee, and she’d probably lose"and even if by some miracle she won, she’d be a terrible president.”


<snip>

Quote:
There are, in fact, any number of post-Reagan visions floating around among the eggheads of the GOP. Newt Gingrich has been contending for some time that the party needs to abandon its posture as resolutely anti-government; that it needs to adopt a “pro"good government” stance of managerial competence. Ross Douthat and Reihan Salam, in their recent book Grand New Party, made a case for a blend of social conservatism and populist economics to appeal to what they call “Sam’s Club voters.” And Brooks cites British Tory party leader David Cameron’s focus on civil society, twinned with an acceptance of a larger state so long as it is fully paid for, as offering a promising example.


<snip>

Quote:
Frum is not alone is fearing that Palin"who, for all her obvious defects, must be the Republican at this moment with the largest, most ardent fan base in the party"will emerge as one of the front-runners the next time around. The former Reagan economic adviser Bruce Bartlett predicts, indeed, that the Republican primaries will turn into a Palin/Gingrich steel-cage death match.



more in the two pages - before, around and after the snips
okie
 
  0  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 06:55 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

Foxfyer wrote:
Or......to put it more succinctly, what some try to pass for conservatism is in fact mostly modern liberalism.

I would say much of today's modern conservatism is now mostly a status quo kind of socialsim masquerading as conservatism. But drop the status quo part and we have what is mostly modern liberalism.

And now we have the "New Party" hijacking what we know as the Democratic Party. The old Democratic Party no longer exists. You might as well call it the socialist party.

ican, the battle is no longer between liberalism and conservatism, the landscape of the battle has changed, it is a more liberal brand of conservatism battling a bold new form of socialism. Before long, we will be arguing over things not yet ever argued in this country, things like nationalizing corporations, etc. Hold on to your hats. It aint going to be pretty. The new left feels their oats and if Obama wins, they will be flapping their wings and coming out with all kinds of new stuff out of their closets.

If Obama wins, America as we have known it is on life support.
okie
 
  0  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 07:07 pm
@okie,
One other comment, the center of political gravity has shifted markedly left during the past 50 years in my opinion. I had a debate with I think Parados about this, in which he heatedly denied this, but I think the evidence is mounting, is overwhelming that it is. All the claims by the left that George Bush is some kind of extreme person on the right, most extreme conservative in the last whatever years, is nothing but a smokescreen, no way in my opinion. George Bush is a moderate to the left Republican, as compared to the 50 years ago. He is not that conservative on many issues.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 07:10 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth I have grown quite fond of you. But I'm not going to address the points you made, at least just yet. The topics you have introduced here would be entirely appropo for the Elections 2008 thread.

But for this one, please repeat after me:
Modern American Conservatism is not synonymous with George W. Bush.
Modern American Conservatism is not synonymous with John S. McCain
Modern American Conservatism is not synonymous with the Republican Party.

Each of these individuals and probably most Republicans as well as notable figures who do not call themselves Republican do embrace some Conservative principles sufficiently to be committed to them. Probably all are more Conservative than they are not. But President Bush, Senator McCain, and the Republican Party have all also been disappointments in one or more ways to those of us who call ourselves Conservative.

Now if you would be interested in considering what views Barack Obama holds that would be considered consistent with Modern American Conservatism that would be an interesting discussion.

If you would be interested in considering what views John McCain or Sarah Palin or President Bush or Newt Gingrich or anybody might hold that would be consistent with Modern American Conservatism that would make an interesting discussion.

I am not interested in Obama bashing or McCain bashing or Republican bashing or bashing anybody in particular here. There are a gazillion other threads out there in which that is being done ad nauseum and it becomes hugely boring after awhile.

I probably was somewhat misleading with my opening post to this thread, but it was the very obvious (to me anyway) discontent and disconnect of the Conservative base with their elected standard bearers that prompted this thread to begin with.

(I apologize for the jab taken at liberals, but we do have intermittent ugly trollish attacks on this thread that bring out the worst in me sometimes.)
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 07:25 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
But for this one, please repeat after me:
Modern American Conservatism is not synonymous with George W. Bush.
Modern American Conservatism is not synonymous with John S. McCain
Modern American Conservatism is not synonymous with the Republican Party.


Fair observations, now repeat after me:
Modern American Conservatism is used against me so I will vote for Bush, McCain, and other Republicans.
Modern American Conservatism is not a perfect political ideology.
A Modern American Conservative candidate for president will never win because people who claim to believe in them will vote for people they do not believe in.

I'm voting for someone.
You're voting against someone.
I'll take the highroad.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 07:40 pm
Sigh. Give TKO a compliment for not being trollish, but add him to the list of those who have no clue what this thread is about.
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 09:18 pm
@Foxfyre,
I've been on this thread ever since you started it Fox, and it's been the same song and dance. A bunch of people with words to support one thing with words and another with their actions.

The point of this thread was to identify where is GOP abandoned conservatism, and what myself and others have been trying to point out for some time is that the abandonment happened at the top and at the bottom.

Sure Bush isn't conservative. That's a pretty obvious conclusion. He sure as hell isn't liberal or progressive though. He may have abandoned this ideology, but you have to acknowledge your role in this too because you didn't hold him accountable to that standard. He had zero to be concerned about and therefore zero need to fulfill any sort of conservative expectations.

The premise of your argument is that the GOP went away from the right, and that was a turn off. I think that Asherman's post on page one is the most relevant in the face of this.

Asherman wrote:
If the Republican Party has lost ground with American voters it may not be because we've "abandoned" important conservative principles. It is just as likely that the Party has lost public appeal by been too far Right. Those who urge and rant about ideological purity are a turnoff, and present fat targets for the opposition. As Republicans, we need to ask ourselves if Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, and Ron Paul truly represent conservative principles traditional to our Party. Ron Paul's candidacy was based entirely on ideological purity, and frankly many of his conclusions about what policies those principles called for were wide of both Republican and the relatively unaffiliated moderate voter's acceptance.


Perhaps the GOP is just too extreme? I for one tend to believe a more moderate government either left or right is far more functional. The "extreme left" is honestly not that far left. They've moved into a very central political geometry. All things are relative, and while the left moved right, the right took the slack and moved even farther right.

You may have some super idea of what you think conservatism is and in your head it might be solution you'd propose. However, it is a meaningless declaration because you nor okie, nor ican will ever take your constitutional power into the voting booth and put your vote where your mouth is.

Want conservative leaders? Too bad. You don't deserve them. You want it to just arrive for you without you ever having to take a risk. How do you think that you can stump about the superiority of this ideology, and expect to be convincing if you yourself won't (as in actively choose not to) back it up.

If you won't vote for it, why should I? If it's such an awesome idea and it could really help, why aren't more politician's running as such? How are you an authority on conservatism?

Conservatism is great on paper, but it doesn't work. If it worked, it would be the dominant political ideology. Conservatism is just a word; an idea; a false promise made to keep people like yourself in control.

T
K
O
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 10:05 pm
@Diest TKO,
Okay, pick any one of the principles of Modern American Conservatism posted earlier today and tell me why it does not work.

Here they are again:

1. The federal government is for the people, of the people, and by the people as the means by which the unalienable, civil, legal, and Constitutional rights of the people are protected, an orderly society is maintained, and the life and property of the citizens are defended. The government should do only that which cannot be done more efficiently and effectively by the private sector.

2. In all matters that do not affect the unalienable, civil, legal, and Constitutional rights of the people, the majority opinion should prevail. By that means, the shared values of the community will the norm and can prevail as the majority prefers.

3. Change that improves on the current conditions/situation/enviroment etc. should be encouraged and embraced by majority consent; those values that have proved their worth as beneficial to the whole should be preserved by majority consent.

4. Shared infrastruture and common services beneficial to the whole are within the legitimate scope of government. Otherwise, within the shared laws of the community, the individual is the best judge of how to use his own property and prosperity toward the pursuit of happiness.

Taking just one tenet from Number 4, for instance, if you like consider this:

Government should not be a dispenser of charity nor engage in redistribution of weath.from the public treasury.
 

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