AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

I listened to NPR for a couple hours yesterday, and revealing it was. The discussion was partly about how the savings would be attained, and some of it was how to educate the public on what they actually needed, to cut down on tests, etc., translation was bureaucrats would ration and determine need for tests and so forth. Also, alot of our problem is obesity, and there would begin a campaign to control diets, taxing bad foods, regulate food, you name it, we have only scratched the surface of government potential for control.

I don't care, you can use your version or interpretation. Go to Marx himself if you want. Cyclops has already admitted to me that he likes some aspects of communism, so he prefers to choose what he thinks is best of that philosophy and mix it with the best of capitalism. I think that is close to correct, cyclops, correct me if that isn't exactly right.

And also, cyclops beleives that human life is not necessarily superior or inherently deserving of more rights than animals, and this was also a very revealing revelation of his, it tells us alot. I will give cyclops credit for some degree of honesty about his beliefs. We just disagree, we disagree worlds apart.

Many liberals are very reluctant to describe their philosophy in much detail. Since I have been on this forum, I have found that to be something very noticeable, and conservatives are more than anxious and proud of what they believe. I would think any poster should jump at the chance to defend their true beliefs. Debra Law is a another example, when asked point blank if she believes in Marxism, has so far declined to answer as far as I know.

okie wrote:

I don't care, you can use your version or interpretation. Go to Marx himself if you want. Cyclops has already admitted to me that he likes some aspects of communism, so he prefers to choose what he thinks is best of that philosophy and mix it with the best of capitalism. I think that is close to correct, cyclops, correct me if that isn't exactly right.

Socialism, not Communism, Okie. Big difference.

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And also, cyclops beleives that human life is not necessarily superior or inherently deserving of more rights than animals, and this was also a very revealing revelation of his, it tells us alot. I will give cyclops credit for some degree of honesty about his beliefs. We just disagree, we disagree worlds apart.

What does it tell you, Okie? Specifically.

Cyclotpichorn

okie wrote:

Many liberals are very reluctant to describe their philosophy in much detail. Since I have been on this forum, I have found that to be something very noticeable, and conservatives are more than anxious and proud of what they believe. I would think any poster should jump at the chance to defend their true beliefs. Debra Law is a another example, when asked point blank if she believes in Marxism, has so far declined to answer as far as I know.

How can I possibly respond to your query when you have not yet defined "Marxism" for my consideration. Additionally, what do you mean when you ask if I "believe" in something? Are you alleging that the concept you're asking me to consider is some form of truth that must be believed or disbelieved?

It tells me that you don't believe in what the Declaration of Independence says that God endowed our rights.

And it tells me that your thinking is dangerous to our American way of life in terms of our rights as human beings, and the consideration of how and why human life is sacred.

It also explains your environmental views, which I think are also dangerous if taken to logical extremes.

Foxfyre wrote:

I am open for a debate on single-payer versus free market, but really we have been having that on several threads for months now.

Sure, hop on over to the health care thread and have a read.

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You cannot provide an example of a single-payer system, other than on a very small scale, that is not rife with problems or that is paying its own way, and you have no examples at all for a population as large and diverse as the USA. By contrast, I am a small, effective, efficient government person who does not want the federal government doing ANYTHING that can be done as responsibly at the state or private sector level.

So you don't want to have the discussion here, but you're making claims anyway. We can do this elsewhere.

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His campaign rhetoric re health care did not threaten private insurance or private plans in the way the plan Congress came up with did.

So now congress has to adhere to Obama's campaign promises? You've been a little too long under the unitary executive.

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His most recent speech provided no specifics and was pretty ambiguous in all the areas of greatest concern to those who are concerned.

It was infinitely more specific than the snippet you posted from 2003 as his 'original plan'.

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Or, as I just posted, pretty disingenuous in areas like public healthcare for people in the country illegally. He completely ignored the CBO assessment of the proposed costs of his healthcare reform even while glibly saying that he wouldn't approve a plan that would increase the deficit. And what planet does he come from saying that with a straight face? He either increases the deficit or increases taxes at unprecedented heights. He didn't mention portability or relaxing regulation to allow private insurance companies ability to compete more effectively and gave the mildest lip service to tort reform with nothing to suggest what that would be.

You're all over the place. He doesn't have a plan, but his plan would increase the deficit. He was non-specific, but was specifically disingenuous. Take a deep breath. You're spinning yourself up in opposition for the sake of opposition.

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And that is why the majority of Americans are no longer trusting him on this issue.

We've had this discussion.

Now, I don’t believe malpractice reform is a silver bullet, but I’ve talked to enough doctors to know that defensive medicine may be contributing to unnecessary costs. So " so " so I’m proposing that we move forward on a range of ideas about how to put patient safety first and let doctors focus on practicing medicine. I know that the Bush administration considered authorizing demonstration projects in individual states to test these ideas. I think it’s a good idea, and I’m directing my secretary of health and human services to move forward on this initiative today.

Your misrepresentations of what I favor or take lightly are totally distorted, but then again why would I be surprised. I see no need to further beat a dead horse, which is what our discussions become. I apologize, Foxfyre, for causing this dustup here.

Besides, just how radically different can various versions of Marxism be anyway?

okie has it ass-backwards; it's not the patient that requests tests

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=statism&x=20&y=5
Main Entry: statism
...
: concentration of all economic controls and planning in the hands of a highly centralized government
...

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=socialism&x=26&y=8
Main Entry: so•cial•ism
...
1 : any of various theories or social and political movements advocating or aiming at collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and control of the distribution of goods: as a : FOURIERISM b : GUILD SOCIALISM c : MARXISM d : OWENISM
2 a : a system or condition of society or group living in which there is no private property <trace the remains of pure socialism that marked the first phase of the Christian community -- W.E.H.Lecky> -- compare INDIVIDUALISM
b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state -- compare CAPITALISM, LIBERALISM c : a stage of society that in Marxist theory is transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and payments to individuals according to their work


http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=communism&x=26&y=8
Main Entry: com•mu•nism
...
1 a : a theory advocating elimination of private ownership of property or capital b : a system or condition real or imagined in which goods are owned commonly rather than privately and are available as needed to each one in a unified group sometimes limited, sometimes inclusive, and often composed of members living and working together : a similar system preventing amassing of privately owned goods and assuring equalitarian returns to those working <Plato's aristocratic communism> <the communism of the early church groups> <the communism obtaining among the early colonists>
2 often capitalized [Russian & German; Russian kommunizm, from German kommunismus, from French communisme] a : a social and political doctrine or movement based upon revolutionary Marxian socialism that interprets history as a relentless class war eventually to result everywhere in the victory of the proletariat and the social ownership of the means of production with relative social and economic equality for all and ultimately to lead to a classless society b : BOLSHEVISM c : a totalitarian system of government in which the state as owner of the major industries and acting through the medium of a single authoritarian party controls in large measure the economic, social, and cultural life of the society
3 often capitalized : strong left-wing activity or inclination that is subversive or revolutionary
4 biology : COMMENSALISM


http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=fascism&x=29&y=8
Main Entry: fas•cism
...
1 often capitalized : the principles of the Fascisti; also : the movement or governmental regime embodying their principles
2 a : any program for setting up a centralized autocratic national regime with severely nationalistic policies, exercising regimentation of industry, commerce, and finance, rigid censorship, and forcible suppression of opposition
b : any tendency toward or actual exercise of severe autocratic or dictatorial control (as over others within an organization) <the nascent fascism of a detective who is not content merely to do his duty -- George Nobbe> <early instances of army fascism and brutality -- J.W.Aldridge> <a kind of personal fascism, a dictatorship of the ego over the more generous elements of the soul -- Edmond Taylor>


http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=nazism&x=16&y=5
Main Entry: na•zism
...
1 : the body of political and economic doctrines held and put into effect by the National Socialist German Workers' party in the Third German Reich including the totalitarian principle of government, state control of all industry, predominance of groups assumed to be racially superior, and supremacy of the führer : German fascism
2 : a Nazi movement or regime

okie wrote:

Your misrepresentations of what I favor or take lightly are totally distorted, but then again why would I be surprised. I see no need to further beat a dead horse, which is what our discussions become. I apologize, Foxfyre, for causing this dustup here.

Are you going to tell me that you didn't defend torture, killing civilians, and warrantless wiretapping? For years? Because you would be an absolute liar if you said that, Okie. And you know it.

Cycloptichorn

Cycloptichorn wrote:

okie wrote:

Your misrepresentations of what I favor or take lightly are totally distorted, but then again why would I be surprised. I see no need to further beat a dead horse, which is what our discussions become. I apologize, Foxfyre, for causing this dustup here.

Are you going to tell me that you didn't defend torture, killing civilians, and warrantless wiretapping? For years? Because you would be an absolute liar if you said that, Okie. And you know it.

Cycloptichorn

Total and absolute baloney, your post is an insult to decent people.

Your misrepresentations of what I favor or take lightly are totally distorted, but then again why would I be surprised. I see no need to further beat a dead horse, which is what our discussions become. I apologize, Foxfyre, for causing this dustup here.

okie wrote:

Your misrepresentations of what I favor or take lightly are totally distorted, but then again why would I be surprised. I see no need to further beat a dead horse, which is what our discussions become. I apologize, Foxfyre, for causing this dustup here.

No apology necessary for distracting Cyclop. It means he won't be bothering so many straw men, red herrings, and non sequiturs .