55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Sep, 2009 11:25 am
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:

I still shocked that you do not think that some rationing will have to occur at some point. It might not be explicitly proposed, but funds are not unlimited.


I see no evidence that any more rationing will occur under the various plans proposed by the Dems, than currently occurs under our system today; this is exactly what McG and other fearmongerers are claiming will happen.

Cycloptichorn
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Sep, 2009 11:29 am
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:

McGentrix wrote:
That's with the current plan. I am speaking of the future plan where their health care is rationed and they receive less in medicare benefits. You know, Obamacare (r).

That's what I like about you, McG: always with the jokes!


I wasn't joking though. How do you expect to have equal or increased benefits when they are planning to take 500 billion dollars out of the program? Fairy dust? Magic pixie juice? Is David Blaine going to make it happen? What kind of magic are you expecting to make that happen exactly?

And, health care rationing WILL happen if this plan goes ever goes into effect as it is.

Fewer services for more money.
parados
 
  4  
Reply Thu 10 Sep, 2009 11:34 am
@McGentrix,
Quote:
Fewer services for more money.


That will happen if we keep the current system. It has been the standard in health insurance for the last 20 years. Each new year brings fewer services for more money.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Sep, 2009 11:35 am
@McGentrix,
McGentrix wrote:

joefromchicago wrote:

McGentrix wrote:
That's with the current plan. I am speaking of the future plan where their health care is rationed and they receive less in medicare benefits. You know, Obamacare (r).

That's what I like about you, McG: always with the jokes!


I wasn't joking though. How do you expect to have equal or increased benefits when they are planning to take 500 billion dollars out of the program? Fairy dust? Magic pixie juice? Is David Blaine going to make it happen? What kind of magic are you expecting to make that happen exactly?


Factcheck says: McG knows not that which he speaks of.

http://wordpress.asc.upenn.edu/2009/08/seven-falsehoods-about-health-care/

Quote:
False: Medicare Benefits Will Be Slashed

The claim that Obama and Congress are cutting seniors’ Medicare benefits to pay for the health care overhaul is outright false, though that doesn’t keep it from being repeated ad infinitum.

The truth is that the pending House bill extracts $500 billion from projected Medicare spending over 10 years, as scored by the Congressional Budget Office, by doing such things as trimming projected increases in the program’s payments for medical services, not including physicians. Increases in other areas, such as payments to doctors, bring the net savings down to less than half that amount. But none of the predicted savings " or cuts, depending on one’s perspective " come from reducing current or future benefits for seniors.


Quote:

And, health care rationing WILL happen if this plan goes ever goes into effect as it is.

Fewer services for more money.


Cycloptichorn says: McG knows not that which he speaks of.

You bunch have such a pathetic track record when it comes to projecting ANYTHING, it's amazing that you think people would still look to you for things such as this. Seriously.

Cycloptichorn
wandeljw
 
  4  
Reply Thu 10 Sep, 2009 11:35 am
Quote:
Rationing Health Care: We Have Always Done It, We Do It Now, and We Always Will
(By NEIL H. BUCHANAN, FindLaw Commentary, August 27, 2009)

As the debate over health care reform has become increasingly degraded over the past few weeks, one of the claims that has been treated as a serious complaint about the Democrats' plans -- unlike, say, the claim that the plans include "death panels" -- has been the assertion that their proposals will result in the rationing of health care.

A news article in yesterday's New York Times, for example, profiled an older, politically very conservative couple from Georgia who had attended a town hall meeting to express opposition to the Democrats' proposals. The husband said that he was worried that his wife, who is a breast cancer survivor, would end up "on a waiting list" under the Democrats' plans if the cancer returned.

While the article went on to praise this couple for their “calmer, more reasoned voices” in the debate, the truth is that concerns about rationing -- even when stated calmly -- are simply not reasonable. The sheer unreasonableness of raising this issue is, however, difficult to explain. That is because the point being made " that rationing will occur under Obama’s health care plan -- is both literally true and completely irrelevant. The issue is not whether we will ration health care, but how.

As college students return to campuses across the country, those who enroll in economics courses will learn that, in fact, nearly every good and service in the world is rationed. This is such a basic fact of any economy that it is presented in the first week (and usually in the first lecture) of virtually every economics course in the country, no matter whether the professor is liberal or conservative, Keynesian or Monetarist, neoclassical or neo-Marxist.

What does it mean to ration goods? Any good that is "scarce" -- that is, there is not enough of the good to go around -- must be rationed in some way. For example, if one hundred people want a widget, there are only eighty widgets, and we cannot increase the number of widgets available, we need to decide directly or indirectly how to choose which twenty people will walk away empty-handed.

There are a number of ways in which this can be done. The widgets can be offered on a first-come, first-served basis, which is usually accomplished by having people wait in line. The widgets can be offered by a lottery. The owners of the widgets can choose the lucky recipients on the basis of friendship, political power, religious affiliation, or any other method of distinguishing among people. We can also allow the widgets to be sold for a price, which would presumably drive some of the potential consumers away as they reconsider their desire for widgets in light of their other spending priorities.

In other words, "rationing" has such a broad meaning that it can be used to describe virtually any method of allocating scarce goods and services. The word itself, however, carries such a negative connotation that it has political potency, making an attack on someone else's plan more frightening and worrying. When someone says a good will be rationed, many Americans think, "Someone is not going to get the good, and I do not want to be that person."

Applied to the problem of health care, rationing is especially important, because people could ask for an almost limitless amount of medical care if it were available to them. Beyond the life-threatening diseases that dominate headlines, there are plenty of situations in which even someone who is not a hypochondriac could decide that he or she needs more preventive care, or would benefit from having another mole checked, or a cough looked into. These need not be idle or frivolous concerns, because so many diseases are treatable if detected early but fatal if discovered too late. Each of us might want to have access to a personal doctor at all times, if that were possible.

Before modern medicine emerged as a full-blown industry in the mid-Twentieth Century, medical care was rationed by a combination of price and the simple availability of a doctor or lack thereof. With the creation of the modern medical-industrial complex, however, it became the norm to ration medical care through the odd happenstance of a person's employment status -- that is, what kind of insurance a person could obtain through her employer. The health insurance industry came to be organized around this approach, making individually-purchased health care so expensive that virtually all unemployed people and people whose employers do not provide health insurance (and who are not independently wealthy) simply do without. They are, in other words, the unlucky people in our current form of rationing.

For those who do not receive their medical care through a health insurance company, the rationing mechanism is the emergency room. There, the oldest forms of rationing take place, a combination of getting in line and "triage," where the intake professionals allow the cases that appear to be the most serious to jump forward in line. Cost is still, in fact, part of the equation, as emergency rooms do in fact try to bill people for services that are supposedly free of charge.

Even for those who have health insurance -- and, we should emphasize, who will not lose that insurance due to job loss or because they become ill -- health care can be rationed in surprisingly crude ways. For instance, one effect of health insurers' bureaucracies is to discourage people from seeking medical care in the first place, because people simply cannot know in advance whether care will be covered by their insurance.

This becomes particularly difficult when people must try to figure out the subtle rules for matters such as "out of network" care. For example, I know of someone who was on a vacation a few hundred miles from home and suffered a serious blow to the head by falling on ice. He decided that he was not hurting so much that it was worth entering the "Twilight Zone" of his health insurer's rules for seeking and receiving care outside of his home state. Happily, choosing not to see a doctor was not disastrous in this case, but the very existence of those opaque rules acted as a disincentive to seek medical attention.

The larger point is that some people who would otherwise like to receive medical care are not receiving it, due to various features of our existing health care system that are, in fact, forms of rationing. These people might or might not be literally lining up in waiting rooms, but something is standing in the way of their ability to improve their health " and thus, for them, health care is effectively rationed.

Perhaps it is unfair, however, to apply such a broad economist's definition of rationing to the health care debate. What seems to worry people most is that some bureaucrat might deny us coverage that we would otherwise receive from a willing doctor. If we limit the definition of rationing to the notion of creating such a gatekeeper, however, it is still true that we are currently rationing care in exactly the ways that opponents of reform efforts decry.

The denial of care by health insurers is by now an infamous part of our health care system. People are regularly thrown out of health insurance plans because of de minimis infractions that are used as pretexts to save insurers' money. The determination that some treatments are "experimental" must be made by someone, and that determination is a decision to ration care away from the unlucky patient.

Who makes those determinations? Bureaucrats, of course. They are not government employees, but they nevertheless fully deserve the title of bureaucrat for their role in applying technical rules to determine who will, and who will not, receive care. In many cases, these decisions determine who will live and who will die.

The strength of the Democrats' current proposals to reform the health care system lies in their efforts to deny insurers the discretion -- which has been so badly abused -- to ration health care on the basis of arbitrary and procedurally-suspect grounds. The goal is that we will no longer allow "pre-existing conditions" to be used as a reason to drop a patient from an insurance plan. And, there will be no more recently unemployed workers or workers at small businesses who cannot buy coverage at anything like an affordable price.

This means, of course, that something has to give. If we commit to providing medical care to more people, then we will either have to increase the total amount of medical care available or reduce the receipt of medical care elsewhere. And this is exactly what the current proposals try to do, encouraging increases in the amount of health care available, and attempting to determine which types of coverage that are currently being provided are not doing anyone any good.

This latter point " the point that the health care reform proposals will involve decisions by panels of experts to deny coverage for certain types of treatments -- is in part the basis for the accusation that some faceless board of technocrats will soon be denying medical coverage to some people in certain situations.

That accusation is true, but it is a meaningless accusation. We currently have faceless bureaucrats rationing coverage behind closed doors, using criteria that are not disclosed to the public and that at least appear to be motivated more by profit than by sound medical science. The advantage of even the most narrow form of "rationing" that the current legislation would impose is that, at the very least, we would know who is making those decisions and what criteria they are applying. And that knowledge would empower us to critique and, if necessary, alter the decisionmaking system in order to make it fairer and more humane.

The bottom line? There is not, has never been, and can never be, enough medical care to cover everyone in every situation. Rationing is a fact of life. Current health care proposals in Congress would change the rules for rationing, bring them into the light, and create accountability for the decision makers. If we do not adopt those proposals, we will go back to the chaotic form of rationing that has been killing far too many of us for far too long.
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Sep, 2009 11:46 am
@McGentrix,
McGentrix wrote:

joefromchicago wrote:
That's what I like about you, McG: always with the jokes!


I wasn't joking though.

That's what makes it so funny.

McGentrix wrote:
And, health care rationing WILL happen if this plan goes ever goes into effect as it is.

We already have rationing, except that it's not based on what you have, it's based on how much you have.

McGentrix wrote:
Fewer services for more money.

It's the American way!
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Sep, 2009 11:47 am
rjb, Good article, but I betcha most still don't get it!
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  2  
Reply Thu 10 Sep, 2009 12:01 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I don't disagree with you there.

Rationing will continue like it always has. The criteria for who or what is rationed will likely change.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Thu 10 Sep, 2009 12:05 pm
@maporsche,
Yes, the who or what will definitely change, but it can also get done properly or sloppily. If they do more things right than wrong, it should save on the overall cost of health care.
maporsche
 
  2  
Reply Thu 10 Sep, 2009 12:07 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Yes sir.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 10 Sep, 2009 01:01 pm
President Obama, last night before a joint session of Congress, repeated many of his previous lies plus added more lies.

His plan will enable him to make progress in controlling the expansion of the trillion dollar deficit he inherited from the previous administration by spending less on health care insurance.

His plan will save money if it does not cost more money.

His plan will provide the health care you need and not the health care you do not need.

His plan will permit continuation of current coverage if it does not cause a discontinuance of current coverage.

His plan will provide coverage for 30 million people who cannot afford health insurance, and for the one-third of Americans--over 100 million Americans--who at sometime during their lives will not be able to afford health insurance.

His plan will not compel use of government non-profit medical insurance, while compeling private insurers to reduce their profits to the point they decide to go out of business.

His plan will not increase the deficit more than a trillion dollars over 10 years if everyone does their part.

His plan may require tort reform, if he does not choose to not require tort reform.

THE SOLUTION TO OBAMACARE IS TO NOT PERMIT IT BY NOT ADOPTING IT! INSTEAD ADOPT SOMETHING LIKE THE FOLLOWING:

Tort Reform: Require medical tort awards to be less than three times actual damages--awards for pain and suffering to be less than awards for damages; attorney fees to be less than awards for damages.

Insurance Boundaries: Permit all private health insurers to sell their insurance nationally.

Insurance Vouchers: Permit people to choose to contribute some of their federal income taxes to private charities that provide health insurance vouchers to those people unable to pay for health insurance.

Medicare and Medicaid: Require the Treasury Department to provide vouchers that purchase health care insurance equivalent to current Medicare and Medicaid, AND close all current Medicare and Medicade offices and end their administrative expenses.


DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Sep, 2009 01:27 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

Tort Reform:
Insurance Boundaries:
Insurance Vouchers:
Medicare and Medicaid:


no.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Sep, 2009 01:30 pm
@DontTreadOnMe,
DontTreadOnMe wrote:

ican711nm wrote:

Tort Reform:
Insurance Boundaries:
Insurance Vouchers:
Medicare and Medicaid:


no.


Yeah. Those ideas are pretty much dead on arrival, as they won't do anything to address cost containment at all, don't do anything to help those with pre-existing conditions, and would cancel the most popular insurance program in the nation.

Cycloptichorn
ican711nm
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 10 Sep, 2009 01:30 pm
@wandeljw,
NEIL H. BUCHANAN wrote:
Rationing Health Care: We Have Always Done It, We Do It Now, and We Always Will
...
The bottom line? There is not, has never been, and can never be, enough medical care to cover everyone in every situation. Rationing is a fact of life. Current health care proposals in Congress would change the rules for rationing, bring them into the light, and create accountability for the decision makers. If we do not adopt those proposals, we will go back to the chaotic form of rationing that has been killing far too many of us for far too long.

This article distorts the meaning of rationing.
Quote:

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=rationing&x=24&y=7
Main Entry: 2ration
...
1 : to supply with rations : put on rations <ration the inhabitants of a besieged city> <the Food Administration did not ration the people -- Will Irwin>
2 a : to distribute as rations : allot in rations <ration sugar during the emergency> <rationed out beef, pork, and flour, often to hundreds -- American Guide Series: Minnesota> b : to distribute or divide (as commodities in short supply) in an equitable manner or so as to achieve a particular object (as maximum production of particular items) -- compare DIRECT CONTROL c : to use or indulge in sparingly <an official communiqué in which words were strictly rationed -- Time>
synonym see APPORTION

Health insurance is purchased. Health care is purchased. The only time it is rationed is when it has been purchased but is denied by someone. The fact that some cannot afford to buy it does not mean it is rationed. This is true for two reasons:
(1) a person who cannot afford to buy it, can nonetheless get free health care from hospitals;
(2) for something to be rationed it has to be denied by some people to people who can otherwise afford it or can obtain it free.
DontTreadOnMe
 
  4  
Reply Thu 10 Sep, 2009 01:35 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

DontTreadOnMe wrote:

ican711nm wrote:

Tort Reform:
Insurance Boundaries:
Insurance Vouchers:
Medicare and Medicaid:


no.


Yeah. Those ideas are pretty much dead on arrival, as they won't do anything to address cost containment at all, don't do anything to help those with pre-existing conditions, and would cancel the most popular insurance program in the nation.


but it sure would make a lot more money for the people that are already making it. i'm not against turning a profit, but jeeez... at some point it's just obscene.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Thu 10 Sep, 2009 01:41 pm
@ican711nm,
Quote:

Health insurance is purchased. Health care is purchased. The only time it is rationed is when it has been purchased but is denied by someone.


That's correct - by the insurance companies you purchase your policy from. This goes on constantly.

Quote:

The fact that some cannot afford to buy it does not mean it is rationed. This is true for two reasons:
(1) a person who cannot afford to buy it, can nonetheless get free health care from hospitals;


No, they cannot. They merely pass the cost along to you and other people who actually buy insurance when they do so. This is 100% false.

Quote:
(2) for something to be rationed it has to be denied by some people to people who can otherwise afford it or can obtain it free.


This is nonsensical.

Cycloptichorn
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Sep, 2009 01:46 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn" wrote:
Those ideas are pretty much dead on arrival, as they won't do anything to address cost containment at all, don't do anything to help those with pre-existing conditions, and would cancel the most popular insurance program in the nation.

Limiting Tort awards, expanding Insurance Boundaries, permitting a portion of personal federal taxes to contribute to private charity to buy Insurance Vouchers for those who cannot afford to buy medical insurance themselves, and permitting one to spend a portion of one's personal federal taxes to buy their Medicare and Medicaid, will reduce the costs of medical insurance.

In fact, such a plan will enable the cost of private medical insurance for all to be reduced significantly.
0 Replies
 
Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Sep, 2009 01:48 pm
I'm going to add another problem that is currently not being discussed by the charitable conservatives.

why are those of us who are unable to afford insurance charged the most by the providers of "healthcare" when we attempt to pay for services we need.

(assuming we do not just go to the "free hospital".)
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Sep, 2009 01:58 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn, when the cost of medical treatment for those who cannot afford to buy it themselves, is passed along to those who can afford it, those who cannot afford do get that medical treatment, anyway. So my cost of medical insurance includes my increased cost of medical treatment due to some not being able to pay for it themselves. So what! I'm glad to be able to help that way those people less fortunate than myself instead of involving the government to do it for me. Besides, when the government helps them for me, it costs far more. I have found it much more economical to help others myself rather than to have the government do it for me. When the government does it for me either my taxes increase, or government deficits increase later causing inflation, or both, such that my dollars will buy less, including less medical insurance.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Sep, 2009 02:06 pm
@Rockhead,
Rockhead wrote:
why are those of us who are unable to afford insurance charged the most by the providers of "healthcare" when we attempt to pay for services we need.

If you can pay by cash or credit card for healthcare, it will generally cost you less than it does a medical insurer.
0 Replies
 
 

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