51
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Wed 9 Sep, 2009 02:25 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

How tendentious; you know he meant 'health care reform.'

Cycloptichorn


I don't know a single Republican who opposes health care reform either.


Then you don't know any Republicans; for your elected leaders are all opposing health care reform, are unwilling to compromise in the slightest, and say they are expressing your wishes in doing so.

Cycloptichorn
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Wed 9 Sep, 2009 02:32 pm
@Foxfyre,
I have answered you several times about the Conservatives in Canada and their platform/s. Steyn provided no examples. He hinted, but there was no evidence.

I have not seen any evidence from you to support your thesis

you wrote:
Quote:
And the more dependency "A" can create among the people, the more power "A" acquires.



If you had any evidence that the Conservatives had not done this
Foxfyre wrote:
But have they seriously threatened to take away any government salaries, programs, benefits, or contracts upon which large numbers of people have become dependent?

you would have presented it.

You presented Steyn. You can back him up.
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Wed 9 Sep, 2009 02:41 pm
@ehBeth,
I think Steyn's observations are interesting and provocative. I am interested in discussing the concept. You apparently are not or do not have a clue what the concept is. That is cool but you could have just said so in the first place. It is not my thesis. It is Mark Steyn's thesis, therefore I have no obligation to defend or support it. My interest here is to discuss it.

Perhaps we can agree that we both should have a good day and I will continue to discuss it with anybody else who might find the concept interesting.


cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Wed 9 Sep, 2009 02:45 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Ask Foxie to produce one republican who supports health care reform.

There are none; zilch, nada, zero. They are the party of "no." with no recommendations of their own. They just want to defeat Obama's primary legislation.
Foxfyre
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 9 Sep, 2009 02:49 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

How tendentious; you know he meant 'health care reform.'

Cycloptichorn


I don't know a single Republican who opposes health care reform either.


Then you don't know any Republicans; for your elected leaders are all opposing health care reform, are unwilling to compromise in the slightest, and say they are expressing your wishes in doing so.

Cycloptichorn


Opposing massive takeover of control of the healthcare system and opposing institution of one or more additional huge unsustainable entitlement programs is NOT opposing health care. The Republicans have been allowed to introduce no amendments nor propose any alternative plan. They have offered, promoted, and published numerous viable and doable concepts for reform, however. Several have been posted right here in this thread and were ignored or immediately blown off by you and others.

But don't tell me Republicans are opposing health care or health care. They aren't. They ARE opposing government initiatives labeled as 'reform' that they know are designed by opportunists for fools.
kickycan
 
  7  
Reply Wed 9 Sep, 2009 02:49 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

I think Steyn's observations are interesting and provocative. I am interested in discussing the concept. You apparently are not or do not have a clue what the concept is. That is cool but you could have just said so in the first place. It is not my thesis. It is Mark Steyn's thesis, therefore I have no obligation to defend or support it. My interest here is to discuss it.

Perhaps we can agree that we both should have a good day and I will continue to discuss it with anybody else who might find the concept interesting.





Translation: If you don't agree with me then I'm not talking to you anymore, you poopityhead!
Thomas
 
  4  
Reply Wed 9 Sep, 2009 02:53 pm
@kickycan,
You wish. Smile
0 Replies
 
Rockhead
 
  2  
Reply Wed 9 Sep, 2009 02:54 pm
@Foxfyre,
"But don't tell me Republicans are opposing health care or health care reform. They aren't. They ARE opposing health care reform that they know is designed by opportunists for fools."

so now they ARE fighting it?
parados
 
  3  
Reply Wed 9 Sep, 2009 02:58 pm
@Rockhead,
Republicans are all for health care reform. They are just opposed to any specifics that have been proposed for reforming health care..


You know..
Quote:
Great lip service in great sounding generalities.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  3  
Reply Wed 9 Sep, 2009 02:59 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
But I think he isn't considering a 'competitive model' outside the concept of who is more effective at creating the greatest dependency among the electorate. Yes, he refers specifically to the Obama administration throwing spaghetti at the wall and the GOP (futilely at this point) plucking away strands that stick, but I suspect that he would note that if it was the GOP in power, they would be the ones throwing the spaghetti.


Well, I'm not the least bit familiar with Steyn but I'd be surprised if he was known as a neutral observer. I took a look around the Nation Review and I don't buy that he was making a non-partisan point (or that the NR encourages much of that...)

Mr Steyn wrote:
Obama believes in “the fierce urgency of now”, and fierce it is. That’s where all the poor befuddled sober centrists who can’t understand why the Democrats keep passing incoherent 1,200-page bills every week are missing the point. If “health care” were about health care, the devil would be in the details. But it’s not about health or costs or coverage; it’s about getting over the river and burning the bridge. It doesn’t matter what form of governmentalized health care gets passed as long as it passes. Once it’s in place, it will be “reformed”, endlessly, but it will never be undone. Same with a lot of the other stuff: Keep throwing the spaghetti at the wall. The Republicans may pick off the odd strand but, if you keep it coming fast enough, by the end of Obama’s first year the wall will be a great writhing mass of pasta entwined like copulating anacondas in some jungle simulacrum of Hef’s grotto. And that’s a good image of how government will slither into every corner of your life: You can try and pull one of those spaghetti strings out but it’ll be all tied up with a hundred others and you’ll never untangle them.


Sounds like more pablum and fear-mongering to me.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Sep, 2009 03:02 pm
@Rockhead,
Rockhead wrote:

"But don't tell me Republicans are opposing health care or health care reform. They aren't. They ARE opposing health care reform that they know is designed by opportunists for fools."

so now they ARE fighting it?


They are not fighting real healthcare reform. They are fighting programs and proposals that they know won't deliver as promised, that take away freedoms, choices, and opportunities, that squelch initiative, that socializes 17% more of the American economy, and that creates more huge and unsustainable entitlement programs.

Just as the measures that would have allowed GM and Chrysler to actually heal and become profitable were never allowed on the table, neither are the very first steps of making our healthcare system better and more affordable even being considered.
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Sep, 2009 03:04 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Ask Foxie to produce one republican who supports health care reform.

There are none; zilch, nada, zero. They are the party of "no." with no recommendations of their own. They just want to defeat Obama's primary legislation.


My mom has been a registered republican for at least 50 years.
And she does support healthcare reform.

So your statement that "There are none; zilch, nada, zero" that support healthcare reform is obviously false.
Rockhead
 
  0  
Reply Wed 9 Sep, 2009 03:04 pm
@Foxfyre,
what clever wording you use to conceal your real intent...

why is that?

Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Wed 9 Sep, 2009 03:09 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Rockhead wrote:

"But don't tell me Republicans are opposing health care or health care reform. They aren't. They ARE opposing health care reform that they know is designed by opportunists for fools."

so now they ARE fighting it?


They are not fighting real healthcare reform. They are fighting programs and proposals that they know won't deliver as promised


How do they know this? Please recall that the Republican party is out of power right now, in large part due to their inability to accurately predict the future outcomes of events.

Quote:

, that take away freedoms, choices, and opportunities, that squelch initiative, that socializes 17% more of the American economy, and that creates more huge and unsustainable entitlement programs.


The Dems' plans do none of these things. You are talking straight out of your ass.

Quote:
Just as the measures that would have allowed GM and Chrysler to actually heal and become profitable were never allowed on the table, neither are the very first steps of making our healthcare system better and more affordable even being considered.


Let me guess- cut taxes. That's your plan for everything, and it's getting old.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  5  
Reply Wed 9 Sep, 2009 03:10 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfrye wrote:
But don't tell me Republicans are opposing health care or health care. They aren't. They ARE opposing government initiatives labeled as 'reform' that they know are designed by opportunists for fools.


They sure as hell are! I have conversations with dyed-in-the-wool Republicans every day. They aren't hiding behind (or under) some umbrella name like MAC - these folks are Republicans through-and-through and proud of it and they are Absolutely Positively against health care for anyone who doesn't currently have it or reform for anyone who does (particularly their own Medicare).
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Wed 9 Sep, 2009 03:10 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
But I think he isn't considering a 'competitive model' outside the concept of who is more effective at creating the greatest dependency among the electorate. Yes, he refers specifically to the Obama administration throwing spaghetti at the wall and the GOP (futilely at this point) plucking away strands that stick, but I suspect that he would note that if it was the GOP in power, they would be the ones throwing the spaghetti.


Well, I'm not the least bit familiar with Steyn but I'd be surprised if he was known as a neutral observer. I took a look around the Nation Review and I don't buy that he was making a non-partisan point (or that the NR encourages much of that...)


He seem to ideologically be mostly a MAC in most of his views I think, though I'm not really all that familiar with him myself. I've read a bit of his stuff but not a lot. This particular essay I just thought was really provocative and merited at least more than a cursory read. His metaphor of the spaghetti on the wall was spot on whether or not you agree with how it got there. I don't think he appreciates the GOP much more, if any, than the Democrats though.

Quote:
Mr Steyn wrote:
Obama believes in “the fierce urgency of now”, and fierce it is. That’s where all the poor befuddled sober centrists who can’t understand why the Democrats keep passing incoherent 1,200-page bills every week are missing the point. If “health care” were about health care, the devil would be in the details. But it’s not about health or costs or coverage; it’s about getting over the river and burning the bridge. It doesn’t matter what form of governmentalized health care gets passed as long as it passes. Once it’s in place, it will be “reformed”, endlessly, but it will never be undone. Same with a lot of the other stuff: Keep throwing the spaghetti at the wall. The Republicans may pick off the odd strand but, if you keep it coming fast enough, by the end of Obama’s first year the wall will be a great writhing mass of pasta entwined like copulating anacondas in some jungle simulacrum of Hef’s grotto. And that’s a good image of how government will slither into every corner of your life: You can try and pull one of those spaghetti strings out but it’ll be all tied up with a hundred others and you’ll never untangle them.


Sounds like more pablum and fear-mongering to me.


Are you sure he's wrong though? Are you really that secure that he is off base in his analysis of our current situation?

How much better would it have been if there had been more such 'fear mongering'--I prefer to refer to it as sounding the alarm or some such--in advance of some of the hair brained stuff the Bush administration came up with? Maybe enough howls of protest to head some of that off?

And the consequences of this could be far more reaching and much more difficult to undo as described in the metaphor of the tangle of spaghetti stuck to the wall. We can look to Social Security and Medicaid as illustration of just such tangles.
Foxfyre
 
  2  
Reply Wed 9 Sep, 2009 03:11 pm
@Rockhead,
Rockhead wrote:

what clever wording you use to conceal your real intent...

why is that?


What is my intent and what words did I use to conceal it? Inquiring minds, including mine, want to know.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Sep, 2009 03:12 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

Quote:
Ask Foxie to produce one republican who supports health care reform.

There are none; zilch, nada, zero. They are the party of "no." with no recommendations of their own. They just want to defeat Obama's primary legislation.


My mom has been a registered republican for at least 50 years.
And she does support healthcare reform.

So your statement that "There are none; zilch, nada, zero" that support healthcare reform is obviously false.


What are the specifics of the healthcare reform that your mother allegedly supports? Does she support a public option?
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Sep, 2009 03:22 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

Foxfrye wrote:
But don't tell me Republicans are opposing health care or health care. They aren't. They ARE opposing government initiatives labeled as 'reform' that they know are designed by opportunists for fools.


They sure as hell are! I have conversations with dyed-in-the-wool Republicans every day. They aren't hiding behind (or under) some umbrella name like MAC - these folks are Republicans through-and-through and proud of it and they are Absolutely Positively against health care for anyone who doesn't currently have it or reform for anyone who does (particularly their own Medicare).


Well I don't know any. Now that they're already locked into it--we have been talking about the consequence of creating dependency remember?--I know some who don't want to lose their Senior Advantage Plan etc. and have it replaced with some inhumane cattle herded program. I know some who oppose all but taxpayer paid humanitarian emergency care for illegals or those who chose to buy new expensive cars and big screen TVs etc. instead of using the same money to pay for healthcare insurance. I know some who think the responsibility to insure the uninsured should not rest with the Federal government for all the reasons previously discussed. That is different than thinking that private charities are wrong to be Good Samaritans or that if there are government programs, they should be handled at the State or Local levels.

I don't know ANY who think tort reform is not the first step to real healthcare reform and then focus on such things as government backed catastophic coverage that could be handled like flood insurance, relaxation of regulation that makes it difficult or impossible for insurance companies to compete or for people to form other than employer sponsored groups, etc.

There are all manner of ways to reform the system and make it more affordable without a massive government takeover and/or creation of still more big unsustainable entitlement programs.

Opposing Obamacare or opposing Federal giveaway programs is not the same thing as opposing healthcare reform.
Cycloptichorn
 
  4  
Reply Wed 9 Sep, 2009 03:26 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
know some who don't want to lose their Senior Advantage Plan etc. and have it replaced with some inhumane cattle herded program.


Sure you aren't talking about yourself here? I know that if Obama's health care reform passes, your Medicare Advantage plan - which sucks money straight from my pocket to YOUR advantage, though you've never once thanked me for that - will be on the chopping block.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
 

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