AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

@djjd62,

djjd62 wrote:

i'm a canadian, i'm not on your side or their side, i'm on my side, when i say you i mean america, i don't hold with political stripe, in my nearly 30 years of voting i've voted for the three major political parties in canada (Liberals, Conservatives, when they were the Progressive Conservatives, not the american style conservatives they've become, and the New Democratic Party, the socialists don't you know)

Okay, point well taken. But you seem to side with the modern liberals here and I have yet seen you agree with any modern conservative point of view, so from my perspective, when you side with 'them', you become 'them. Smile

Seriously, when you say 'you', i.e. America, I think you must to be more specific as we do not march in lockstep here any more than you do in Canada. And there are wide ranges and divisions in ideology, in love and appreciation for our country, in respect and appreciation for our freedoms, and in our sense of propriety and justice.

I am a MAC because I believe it is the more honest, more defensible, more humane, more compassionate, and more honorable way to govern ourselves and to live. I think it gives the most people of all stripes the best chance for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I think the liberal way, as it is defined in modern America, does not offer or promote opportunity for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Which, when you throw off all the extraneous stuff, is ultimately what this thread is all about.

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Gleanings from my morning email while thinking about the two young women recently 'rescued' from North Korea:

Why is it that if you cross the southern border of North Korea illegally you get twelve years of hard labor, but if you cross the U.S. southern border illegally you get a driver's license, social security number, education for your kids, subsidized housing, food stamps, and free health care?

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@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre wrote:

I think the liberal way, as it is defined in modern America, does not offer or promote opportunity for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Which, when you throw off all the extraneous stuff, is ultimately what this thread is all about.

I could imagine - though I'm not too much educated about what "the liberal American" thinks - that liberals might have the idea that 'the conservative way, as it is defined in modern America, does not offer or promote opportunity for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness'.

Quite difficult to narrow that gap, I think, especially since their are - when you look at every-day-politics - only two parties, each for one idea.

In other countries, where similar happens (though generally all shifted more to the left), these both 'parts' not only come closer in e.g. coalition governments but you find various parties with various different party programs in between and to the left (sometimes to the right as well).

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@Walter Hinteler,

We have numerous parties here too though only two are strong enough and widely known enough to have any chance to elect members to Congress or the President of the United States. Unfortunately both have been governing left of center for some time now and we have had no viable 'conservative' party.

And yes of course, modern American liberals mostly believe they are the more virtuous, more honest, more compassionate, more honorable, more defensible. They honestly believe, I think, that they are nicer people. Better people.

However, modern American liberals cannot point to results of liberalism incorporated into government policy that are not rife with serious problems or that have not produced the results as they were advertised. Modern American conservatives can.

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In the department of "How much trust do you put in your government", watch this exchange between Congressman Alan Grayson, Dem NY, and our current Inspector General:

Kudos to Congressman Grayson for having the courage to actually ask questions that must be asked. I doubt any of you saw this on the evening news however.

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@Foxfyre,

"And yes of course, modern American liberals mostly believe they are the more virtuous, more honest, more compassionate, more honorable, more defensible. They honestly believe, I think, that they are nicer people. Better people."

(liberals of course, should know this cannot be true, cuz God is on your team)

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Fox is, of course, correct, that modern American conservatives can point to their achievements. Let's point to some of their achievements in freeing business to do what it does best:

the savings and loan scandal
the Enron scam
the current recession/financial meltdown/mortgage mess
Jack Abramoff
Bernie Madoff

great work, conservatives.

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@Foxfyre,

my life knowledge of the conservative party is mostly shaped from reagan onward

apart from his firing of the air traffic controllers i find little to identify with when i see modern conservatives

up until a few years ago i was quite happy with Progressive Conservative in canada, they were however hijacked by right wing christian element and have never been the same since

federally i've voted conservative (pre hijacking) and liberal, while provincialy i tend to vote New Democrat (a social democrat party, what you guys would probably call communists)

i'd describe myself as a social democrat

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@MontereyJack,

MontereyJack wrote:

Fox is, of course, correct, that modern American conservatives can point to their achievements. Let's point to some of their achievements in freeing business to do what it does best:

the savings and loan scandal
the Enron scam
the current recession/financial meltdown/mortgage mess
Jack Abramoff
Bernie Madoff

great work, conservatives.

I know you haven't spent much time in this thread MJ, but not a single one of those things were 'conservative'. Every single one of them was taken from the 'liberal' playbook of 'buy votes/influence/power' or 'take from Citizen A to give to Citizen B in order to empower or enrich somebody. So far as the party affiliated with those involved in such activities, let's don't get into the compare indiscretions game as I am sure we will find enough from both Democrats and Republicans that Robert wouldn't have enough bandwidth to accommodate the list.

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@Rockhead,

Rockhead wrote:

"And yes of course, modern American liberals mostly believe they are the more virtuous, more honest, more compassionate, more honorable, more defensible. They honestly believe, I think, that they are nicer people. Better people."

(liberals of course, should know this cannot be true, cuz God is on your team)

God is on the team of whoever loves and obeys him. I don't think he gives a hoot about what political party somebody belongs to.

But do you disagree with the statement itself? Do you not believe that liberals are more virtuous, honest, compasssionate, honorable, defensible/commendable than conservatives? Don't you believe that you are nicer people? Better people?

If you don't believe that, perhaps you can explain why you rarely pass up an opportunity to condemn conservative ideas or actions and those who promote or approve of them?

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@Foxfyre,

see your casual dropping of "the mark of the beast" on that other thread, and ask me again...

(I am not necessarily a liberal, quit attempting to label me, please...)

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@Rockhead,

Rockhead wrote:

see your casual dropping of "the mark of the beast" on that other thread, and ask me again...

(I am not necessarily a liberal, quit attempting to label me, please...)

I'm not labeling you. I asked you a simple question that can be answered with a simple yes or no. An honest man should be able to answer a simple question don't you think? Especially when he knows the answer?

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@Foxfyre,

you are hilarious.

and disingenuous...

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@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre wrote:

so from my perspective, when you side with 'them', you become 'them

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@Rockhead,

Rockhead wrote:

you are hilarious.

and disingenuous...

How am I disingenuous? Please be specific.

And will you answer the question? Yes or no or even a qualified answer such as generally or usually or mostly would suffice. You did come into the thread to discuss the topic didn't you? Or did you just come in to take snarky shots at me?

You wouldn't want to be disingenuous would you?

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@Foxfyre,

See my previous post Fox

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@parados,

parados wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
so from my perspective, when you side with 'them', you become 'them

this doesn't speak well for the bush/cheney followers

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@Foxfyre,

"Please be specific."

for the love of god, woman. give that one a rest until you use it both ways.

you LOVE to argue. we all get that.

you argue from a slant at all times. you are NEVER wrong.

go play with someone that enjoys your brand of abuse...

(I feel sorry for that guy)

Oh, and I forgot...

you have jesus on your speed dial, just in case you need back-up from your high horse.

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@parados,

Foxfyre wrote:

so from my perspective, when you side with 'them', you become 'them

Foxfyre wrote:

I'm not labeling you.

That seems pretty disingenuous Fox.

1 Reply

@djjd62,

djjd62 wrote:

my life knowledge of the conservative party is mostly shaped from reagan onward

apart from his firing of the air traffic controllers i find little to identify with when i see modern conservatives

up until a few years ago i was quite happy with Progressive Conservative in canada, they were however hijacked by right wing christian element and have never been the same since

federally i've voted conservative (pre hijacking) and liberal, while provincialy i tend to vote New Democrat (a social democrat party, what you guys would probably call communists)

i'd describe myself as a social democrat

At least you're an honest man DJ and, in my opinion, pretty neat for a liberal. Smile

I'm especially impressed that you usually can keep things within context and you don't have to make stuff up to have something to say. We might be miles apart ideologically, but I think we would enjoy having dinner together.

A Modern American Conservative as we have defined it on this thread comes closest to what I would describe myself. And because that designation hasn't made its way into the national vernacular yet, the closest commonly recognized designation would be classical liberal.

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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

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