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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  4  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 08:39 am
@parados,
But what does "without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration" mean?
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 09:33 am
@Foxfyre,
foxfyre wrote:
But what does "without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration" mean?

One thing it surely doesn't mean is: shall not "be uniform throughout the United States."
okie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 09:37 am
@ican711nm,
So in 1913, the tax was not flat either. Its never been flat, ican.

I don't think any tax has ever been unversally and totally flat, any tax always makes distinctions or choices between which dollars, which items, or which activities that are being taxed.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 09:44 am
@ican711nm,
"uniform" = "having the same form, manner or degree, not varying or variable."

"all duties, imposts, and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States" = all duties, imposts, and excises shall have the same form, manner or degree, not varying or variable throughout the United States.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 09:54 am
@ican711nm,
The courts are required to comply with Constituion. The Constitution is not required to comply with the courts.

The history of failures of the courts to comply with the Constitution does not in anyway whatsoever change the Constitution. The only way to change/amend the Constitution is specified in Article V. of the Constitution. To date the Constitution has been changed/amended 27 times in accord with Article V.

IT'S LONG PAST TIME WE FIXED THE COURTS!
ican711nm
 
  2  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 10:16 am
@ican711nm,
THERE ARE FIVE ISSUES

(1) ARE the courts required to comply with Constitution, or is the Constitution required to comply with the courts?

(2) IS a tax on a free person’s income a direct tax?

(3) WHAT does the USA Constitution mean by its phrase:
"all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States"?

(4) IF the phrase in the Constitution, "all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States," means that impost taxes on incomes shall be equal for each dollar taxed, THEN is a progressive income tax illegal?

(5) IF progressive income taxes are illegal, THEN is it worth our while to try to get Supreme Court justices appointed that will decide progressive income taxes are illegal?

ican711nm
 
  2  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 10:17 am
@ican711nm,
MY ALLEGATION

I allege that the USA Constitution requires that all direct federal taxes on people or on dollars of income shall be uniform throughout the United States. Neither Congress or judges of any court may lawfully decide otherwise. If you can, find in the Constitution anything that refutes this allegation, please present it.

HERE IS MY EVIDENCE THAT PROGRESSIVE INCOME TAXES ARE ILLEGAL

Amendment X. The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Amendment XIII. (1865) Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Amendment XVI. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census of enumeration. (i.e., uniform and not progressive per dollar of income)

Article I. Section 2. … Representatives and direct taxes shall be apportioned among the several states which may be included within this union, according to their respective numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole number of free persons, including those bound to service for a term of years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.

Article I. Section 8. … The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

Article I. Section 9. … No capitation, or other direct, tax shall be laid, unless in proportion to the census or enumeration herein before directed to be taken.

Article VI. … This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 11:23 am
@okie,
okie wrote:
... in 1913, the tax was not flat either. Its never been flat, ican.

I don't think any tax has ever been unversally and totally flat, any tax always makes distinctions or choices between which dollars, which items, or which activities that are being taxed.

Okie, you're probably correct about the USA not having flat taxes since the adoption of the Constitution in 1789.

But that does not mean "uniform" as used in the USA Constitution does not equate to a flat tax.

The Constitution and an American dictionary are the only places we should look for the meaning of "uniform" as used in the USA Constitution.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2008 07:23 am
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
Representatives and direct taxes shall be apportioned among the several states which may be included within this union, according to their respective numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole number of free persons, including those bound to service for a term of years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons. The actual Enumeration shall be made within three years after the first meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent term of ten years, in such manner as they shall by law direct.

It means that the USSC court can't rule that income taxes are not allowed under the direct tax clause.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  2  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2008 07:31 am
I am on the road this weekend and have limited time to be on line, but I did take the periodic Zogby poll sent to me by that organization. One of the questions asked made me immediately think of the conversation at this time in this thread. The question was posed as follows:

Statement A- The Constitution was written to be left open to interpretation.

Statement B - The Constitution was meant to be read just as it is written.

The options included

a) Strongly Agree with Statement A

b) Somewhat Agree with Statement A

c) Somewhat Agree with Statement B

d) Strongly Agree with Statement B

e) Not sure

So maybe what the Constitution means by what it says would be in the eye of the beholder and would be reflected in how the person would answer the question?
parados
 
  2  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2008 07:41 am
@ican711nm,
ican wrote:
THERE ARE FIVE ISSUES

(1) ARE the courts required to comply with Constitution, or is the Constitution required to comply with the courts?
A meaningless statement since it is the courts that decide the meaning of the constitution while the congress and people are the check on the courts by impeachment or amending the constitution. 150 years of court rulings don't get thrown out the window just because of your ignorance.
Quote:

(2) IS a tax on a free person’s income a direct tax?
A tax on income from wages is NOT a direct tax. You were shown over 4 court rulings on the issue.
Quote:

(3) WHAT does the USA Constitution mean by its phrase:
"all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States"?
That has been explained to you repeatedly including references to the court rulings. If you still don't know then you can't be helped.
Quote:

(4) IF the phrase in the Constitution, "all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States," means that impost taxes on incomes shall be equal for each dollar taxed, THEN is a progressive income tax illegal?
Your original preposition is false and proven false so any question flowing from your false preposition is silly.
Quote:

(5) IF progressive income taxes are illegal, THEN is it worth our while to try to get Supreme Court justices appointed that will decide progressive income taxes are illegal?
Progressive taxes are not illegal and have never been illegal. You can find no writing by any scholar saying they should be illegal. You have ignored court rulings saying that it is legal. You are basing your entire argument on your willful ignorance. (An ignorance that does wonders for promoting "American conservatism.")

Quote:
Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions or property in geometrical progression as they rise
Thomas Jefferson to James Madison 1785.
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/etcbin/browse-mixed-new?id=JefLett&tag=public&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2008 07:48 am
@ican711nm,
Not much evidence there ican.

Simply because you quote the constitution doesn't change the meaning to your tortured one. No intelligent person reading the quotes would come to a conclusion that progressive income taxes are illegal based on the quotes you provided simply because progressive income taxes are never mentioned in any of the quotes.

The power to tax was given to congress so Amendment X is not applicable.
Taxes are not slavery so amendment XIII is not applicable.
Amendment XVI shows that Congress can tax incomes. Your statement in parentheses is wrong and not part of the amendment. You do not help your argument by adding parts to the constitution that aren't there.

Your argument is stupid and has been dispensed with by the courts and on this thread. Feel free to continue to show how ignorant your brand of conservatism is.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  3  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2008 07:58 am
@Foxfyre,
Statement A is the correct one.

ALL things are open to interpretation as evidenced by ican's attempt to add words to the constitution that aren't there.

Of course the writers anticipated the possibility of interpretation questions and wrote who was the final decider in questions of interpretation.
Quote:
The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity, arising under this Constitution
Based on this quote from the constitution which branch of government has the say on questions about the law?


Quote:
This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land
This is the part that says the constitution is law. The law that judicial power is extended to.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2008 09:22 am
@parados,
Quote:

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged
Main Entry: para•dos Pronunciation Guide
Pronunciation: par däs, -d s, -d
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural parados \-d z\; or paradoses \-däs z, -d s z\
Etymology: French, from para- (as in parasol) + dos back, from Latin dorsum -- more at PARASOL
: a bank of earth behind a fortification trench -- compare PARAPET 1

ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2008 09:32 am
@ican711nm,
Quote:
Article I. Section 8. ... but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States


Does the word uniform in the quoted clause mean: uniform uniformity?

Or does the word uniform in the quoted clause mean: uniform nonuniformity?

I allege it means: uniform uniformity
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2008 09:34 am
@ican711nm,
ARE the courts required to comply with Constitution, or is the Constitution required to comply with the courts?

I allege that the courts are required to comply with the Constitution.
ican711nm
 
  2  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2008 10:10 am
@ican711nm,
Quote:

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/
Main Entry: uni•form•ly Pronunciation Guide
Pronunciation: | | l
Function: adverb
: in a uniform manner : so as to be uniform


Main Entry: 1 uni•form Pronunciation Guide
Pronunciation: yün f rm
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): sometimes -er/-est
Etymology: Middle French uniforme, from Latin uniformis, from uni- + -formis -form
1 : marked by lack of variation, diversity, change in form, manner, worth, or degree : showing a single form, degree, or character in all occurrences or manifestations <the Shasta dam ... will keep the flow of the Sacramento relatively uniform throughout the year -- American Guide Series: California> <Great Russian itself has dialects, though generally speaking for so widespread a language it is remarkably uniform -- W.J.Entwhistle & W.A.Morison>
2 : marked by complete conformity to a rule or pattern or by similarity in salient detail or practice : CONSONANT, ALIKE <how far churches are bound to be uniform in their ceremonies -- Richard Hooker>
3 : marked by unvaried and changeless appearance (as of surface, color, or pattern) <so many uniform red hills -- Willa Cather>
4 : consistent in conduct, character, or effect : lacking in variation, deviation, or unequal or dissimilar operation <the constitution has conferred on Congress the right to establish a uniform rule of naturalization -- R.B.Taney>
synonym see LIKE, STEADY

Main Entry: uni•form•i•ty Pronunciation Guide
Pronunciation: f (r)m d. , - t , -i
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): -es
Etymology: Middle English uniformite, from Middle French uniformité, from Late Latin uniformitat-, uniformitas, from Latin uniformis uniform + -itat-, -itas -ity -- more at UNIFORM
1 : the quality or state or an instance of being uniform (as by conformance to one pattern or adherence to one standard) <the insistence on uniformity in religion> <a rule of uniformity that all duties, imposts, and excises shall be uniform throughout the U.S.>
2 : the condition of having the constituent elements lacking in individuality or variability or so arranged as to give a uniform effect to the whole to which they belong; often : SAMENESS, MONOTONY

Main Entry: direct tax Pronunciation Guide
Function: noun
: a tax exacted directly from the person on whom the ultimate burden of the tax is expected to fall <property, income, gift, inheritance, and poll taxes are generally included under direct taxes>

ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2008 10:27 am
@ican711nm,
Quote:
ArticleI.Section 2., last paragraph: The House of Representatives shall choose their speaker and other officers; and shall have the sole power of impeachment.

Quote:
Article I. Section 3., paragraphs 6 and 7: The Senate shall have the sole power to try all impeachments. When sitting for that purpose, they shall be on oath or affirmation. When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside: And no person shall be convicted without the concurrence of two thirds of the members present.
Judgment in cases of impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any office of honor, trust or profit under the United States: but the party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to indictment, trial, judgment and punishment, according to law.

0 Replies
 
parados
 
  3  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2008 11:31 am
@ican711nm,
None of your definitions use the phrase
"per person" or "per dollar" but then that has already been pointed out before.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2008 02:43 pm
@parados,
Main Entry: direct tax Pronunciation Guide
Function: noun
: a tax exacted directly from the person on whom the ultimate burden of the tax is expected to fall <property, income, gift, inheritance, and poll taxes are generally included under direct taxes>

The definitions that I posted use phraseoly that is equivalent to per dollar or per person.
0 Replies
 
 

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