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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 11:32 am
@Foxfyre,
If the stimilus in the USA really isn't working - why is it working elsewhere?

Perhaps, because other countries started earlier and it lasts some time to see the results?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 11:45 am
@okie,
Yes, it's a slow process, because congress and the president are the ones who approve laws for our country. They cannot approve laws that are not Constitutional. We select our government by elections.

Alinsky obviously doesn't know how our government is selected or works. We are not the Soviet Union, Cuba, or any third world country. We still vote our representatives into government.

So if he wants to point the finger, it's the voters who are to blame.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 11:45 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Most sensible countries thought Obama's 'spend ourselves rich' scheme was nuts. And that includes your own Chancellor Angela Merkel, cleavage and all.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 11:48 am
@Foxfyre,
When you say so, it must be true.

However, that system worked in France and here not bad at all.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 11:51 am
@Walter Hinteler,
As a matter of fact, Germany and France's economy are now showing improvements while the other EU countries are still struggling.

Conservatives have difficulty with facts and evidence when it contradicts with their own belief system.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 12:20 pm
@ican711nm,
THE USA'S TOTAL NUMBER OF CIVILIANS EMPLOYED & THE PERCENTAGE OF THE POPULATION EMPLOYED HAS BEEN DECREASING SINCE JULY 2008
Quote:

ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/suppl/empsit.cpseea1.txt
Employment & Unemployment Tables 1970 to 2008 -- numbers in thousands
(CLFE = Civilian Labor Force Employed;
POPE = Percent of Population Employed )
..................................CLFE............POPE
2008:
July...........................145,596...........62.3
August.......................145,273...........62.1
September.................145,029...........61.9
October......................144,657..........61.7
November..................144,144..........61.4
December...................143,338..........61.0

2009:
January ......................142,099.........60.5
February.....................141,748.........60.3
March.........................140,887.........59.9
April............................141,007........59.9
May.............................140,570........59.7
June............................140,196.........59.5
July.............................140,041........59.4

0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 12:25 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

When you say so, it must be true.

However, that system worked in France and here not bad at all.


Wasn't Germany highly criticized because your government dug in its heels and resisted the rush to recklessly spend the people's money in unprecedented proportions? From your own finance minister when all this started.

Quote:
European Economy
Steinbrueck criticizes economic rescue packages
(0) December 11, 2008, 09:34

German Finance Minister Peer Steinbrueck has criticised countries for rushing through what he called crass and untested economic rescue packages at a "breathtaking and depressing" pace. Steinbrueck particularly singled out British Prime Minister Gordon Brown, accusing him of switching to economic policies that would saddle a generation with debt.

In an interview with Newsweek magazine, Steinbrueck urged governments to pause before pledging to spend billions of dollars on plans to try and help their economies emerge from the global credit crunch.

A recession was unavoidable and governments should stop trying to outdo each other with ever bigger stimulus measures, said Steinbrueck.

Steinbrueck singled out British Prime Minister Gordon Brown for particular criticism, accusing him of switching to economic policies that would saddle a generation with debt.

"The same people who would never touch deficit spending are now tossing around billions,“ he said.

"The switch from decades of supply-side politics all the way to a crass Keynesianism is breathtaking.“

GERMAN DOUBTS

German Chancellor Angela Merkel’s government has expressed doubts as to whether ever-increasing fiscal boosts are the cure-all solution for every country’s economic ills.

"For a while the position in Brussels and a few other places has been, ’We’re now very much for setting up large-scale spending programmes, but we’re not really going to ask what the exact effects of those might be. And since the amounts are so high, well, let’s get the Germans to pay because they can’,“ said Steinbrueck.

"Ms. Merkel and I are trying to calm them down a bit just now, and understandably that’s getting us criticised.“

Leaders of Britain, France and the European Commission met in London on Monday to present a united front on a 200 billion euro economic stimulus package for the EU, but Germany was left out of the talks. European leaders are due to meet in Brussels on Thursday and Friday to discuss the proposal.

Asked what was wrong with stimulus proposals that some countries had already put forward, Steinbrueck was highly critical of Britain’s plans to inject record sums of money into its economy.

"Our British friends are now cutting their value added (sales) tax,“ he said.

"We have no idea how much of that stores will pass on to customers ... All this will do is raise Britain’s debt to a level that will take a whole generation to work off.“

Keynesianism is based on the theories of British economist John Maynard Keynes, notably the use of government spending and low interest rates to stimulate demand during a recession.

Germany UK Peer Steinbrueck Gordon Brown finance crisis rescue package Steinbrueck said people were naturally nervous about the financial crisis but that he wanted to give Germany’s own 31 billion euro stimulus package time to succeed.

"As long as we haven’t even given that a chance to work, I am not going to participate in this bidding war over who can do the most. I try to exude a little steadiness and continuity instead,“ he said.
http://www.welt.de/english-news/article2861704/Steinbrueck-criticizes-economic-rescue-packages.html


And, six months later, from what I have been reading, it appears any improvement in the German economy is no more largely a result of government initiative than any improvement in the USA economy is largely a result of government initiative.

Quote:
Germany's tardy stimulus package bound up by red tape
Mon Jul 13, 2009
By Brian Rohan - Analysis

BERLIN (Reuters) - Billions of euros in stimulus spending designed to shield Germany from its deepest post-war recession are unlikely to filter through to the real economy until late next year when growth has already picked up.

With big chunks of state aid still tied up by red tape six months after Berlin unveiled the second tranche of its 81 billion euro stimulus package, critics are seeing their worries about the government's initial sluggishness confirmed.

Transparency and effectiveness may be the good intentions behind lengthy application and planning procedures for state aid, but they are resulting in red tape that will make much of the package miss its most effective window.

The delays mean the small and medium-sized businesses forming the backbone of the German economy may continue to suffer well into 2010, dragging the broader economy down with them.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE56C42F20090713


okie
 
  0  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 12:55 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Yes, it's a slow process, because congress and the president are the ones who approve laws for our country. They cannot approve laws that are not Constitutional. We select our government by elections.

Alinsky obviously doesn't know how our government is selected or works. We are not the Soviet Union, Cuba, or any third world country. We still vote our representatives into government.

So if he wants to point the finger, it's the voters who are to blame.

That post, ci, was hilarious. Hardly any other post of yours provides more insight into your confusion. Unbelievable. Are you okay, ci? I want every conservative, every poster for that matter, to read your post and then try to explain it. It is truly hilarious.
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 01:19 pm
IMPEACH AND REMOVE OBAMA
President Barack Obama has made unconstitutional power grabs unlike any witnessed in the history of our nation. He is in the process of dismantling our constitutional republic, and moving our nation to socialism and fascism. There is ample legislation passed, regulations implemented and government controls put in place that violate our Constitution, U.S. sovereignty and endanger American citizens. It is clear that Barack Obama is representing the interests of our enemies and violating his oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States of America.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 01:31 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
They have provided persuasive arguments.


Who are 'they?' Gingrich et al? If they can provide arguments based in data and not ideology, they can step to the table of a real discussion. So far they have not done this.

Quote:
Even Biden agrees the Stimulus package hasn't produced any results yet.


You are incorrect; the Stim package has produced results. However, we are still experiencing high levels of unemployment. Biden correctly noted that we guessed wrong on the employment level estimates; but the Stim package was about a lot more than employment levels.

You are attempting to cherry-pick a single data point to prove that a complex situation has gone entirely south; I'm sure I don't have to explain to you that this is a dumb thing to do.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 01:32 pm
@Foxfyre,
Another thought, Walter, is that Germany's stimulus package, which you haven't spent much of yet, totaled about $1,000 per person of Germany's population with no projections of additional costs on top of that.

The stimulus package passed by Obama and the Democrats initially totaled $2,600 per person of the USA population--that on top of the $700 billion bailout bill passed in late 2008 bringing the outlay for each man, woman, and child in the USA to about $5,000 which is projected to double by the time the principle is paid on the money borrowed to finance it. And all that is on top of a $3 trillion + budget which will be mostly deficit spending.

Little wonder that such a drain on the economy would fail to stimulate it wouldn't you say?
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 01:34 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Another thought, Walter, is that Germany's stimulus package, which you haven't spent much of yet, totaled about $1,000 per person of Germany's population with no projections of additional costs on top of that.

The stimulus package passed by Obama and the Democrats initially totaled $2,600 per person of the USA population--that on top of the $700 billion bailout bill passed in late 2008 bringing the outlay for each man, woman, and child in the USA to about $5,000 which is projected to double by the time the principle is paid on the money borrowed to finance it.

Little wonder that such a drain on the economy would fail to stimulate it wouldn't you say?


I would note that less than half of the $700 billion bailout bill was ever handed out, and some of that money has been returned. So your figures - a little off.

Not only that, but 232 billion dollars in the ARRA were tax cuts, not additional federal spending. So about 1/3rd of the "2600 per person" you cite goes straight into the pockets of said people. I thought you Republicans liked that sort of thing?

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 01:35 pm
@okie,
okie, Rather than attacking me which is only ad hominems on your part, why don't you challenge what I actually said? What was "hilarious?" Can you do that? Is that how you graduated at the top of your class by attacking the lessons with nonsense that it's funny?
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 01:59 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
When you think you're ready to address the point made get back to me. Until then I'll have to assume that you just didn't get it.

(P.S. they don't plan to reduce the deficit with any money returned, apparently, but consider it money they can pay out again.)
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 02:01 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

When you think you're ready to address the point made get back to me. Until then I'll have to assume that you just didn't get it.

(P.S. they don't plan to reduce the deficit with any money returned, apparently, but consider it money they can pay out again.)


Amazing density from you. The data you attempted to use to make your point was flawed in the extreme, yet you somehow claim that I am not addressing it? Of course I was! I was addressing it by pointing out how wrong you are. Just like I addressed your earlier claims that the Stim package isn't working, by pointing out how wrong you are. When people are correcting your mistakes, it's not because they 'don't get' your argument, it's because your argument is a poorly-thought out ideological one.

If you want people to not quibble with your numbers, have some care and use the correct figures. Mkay?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 02:05 pm
@Foxfyre,
Yes, some Social-Democrats, especially the Finance Minister, didn't want to spend that money (well, that's his job: keeping spending low, getting a lot of taxes).

And I totally agree that in July it looked in your quoted article reported.
But, surprisingly, a month later it looks totally different. (And that was even mentioned in your local paper.)
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 02:06 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
I also read it in the WSJ.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 02:11 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Yes, some Social-Democrats, especially the Finance Minister, didn't want to spend that money (well, that's his job: keeping spending low, getting a lot of taxes).

And I totally agree that in July it looked in your quoted article reported.
But, surprisingly, a month later it looks totally different. (And that was even mentioned in your local paper.)


And I agree that Germany and France are the first to begin to show economic growth which takes them out of the recession. What I think can't be shown, however, is that it was government spending that produced that growth.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 02:20 pm
@Foxfyre,
Maybe France and Germany are recovering faster too because they implemented some of the more modest 'stimulus packages'?

Quote:
We witnessed that rarest of things last week"a politician's public humility. When France, along with Germany, reported an unexpected uptick in economic growth for the second quarter, French Finance Minister Christine Lagarde called the return to growth "very surprising." Imagine that"a major global economy stops shrinking, without the benefit of trillion-dollar stimulus packages or major reforms, and a politician doesn't rush to claim credit for the achievement.

Politicians don't "grow" an economy like a vegetable garden, and the reasons behind economic growth in the global economy are at least as mysterious to our political class, if not more so, than they are to the rest of us. Ms. Lagarde, who spent decades in the private sector, is perhaps better placed than many politicians to appreciate this fact. A single quarter of 0.3% growth hardly means it's off to the races for France or Germany, and the euro zone's economy as a whole still shrank in the quarter, by 0.1% of GDP.

But at a time when politicians around the world are desperate for any sign of a turnaround, it's refreshing to hear the minister responsible for France's economy speak the truth about growth. It is the product of literally millions of decisions made by millions of people about what to produce, buy and sell. Politicians can influence all that decision making, especially by increasing or decreasing the incentives to produce, work and innovate. But they can't control today's multi-trillion-dollar economies, no matter how much they'd like to take credit for doing so when things start looking better.

France did pass a modest stimulus package earlier in the year, and it has joined the cash-for-clunkers craze that has swept the Western world. But France and Germany were among the countries in Europe that resisted Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner's imprecations to join the U.S. on the megastimulus bus, and on present evidence this fiscal restraint does not appear to be hurting their chances for recovery.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204683204574354431606457314.html#articleTabs=article
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 02:56 pm
And more grist for the mill in the debate as to whether the Canadian healthcare system or the USA system holds hope for the best healthcare:

Quote:
Thousands of surgeries may be cut in Metro Vancouver due to government underfunding, leaked paper
By Darah Hansen
Vancouver Sun
August 18, 2009

Vancouver patients needing neurosurgery, treatment for vascular diseases and other medically necessary procedures can expect to wait longer for care, NDP health critic Adrian Dix said Monday.

Dix said a Vancouver Coastal Health Authority document shows it is considering chopping more than 6,000 surgeries in an effort to make up for a dramatic budgetary shortfall that could reach $200 million.

“This hasn’t been announced by the health authority … but these cuts are coming,” Dix said, citing figures gleaned from a leaked executive summary of “proposed VCH surgical reductions.”

The health authority confirmed the document is genuine, but said it represents ideas only.

“It is a planning document. It has not been approved or implemented,” said spokeswoman Anna Marie D’Angelo.

Dr. Brian Brodie, president of the BC Medical Association, called the proposed surgical cuts “a nightmare.”

“Why would you begin your cost-cutting measures on medically necessary surgery? I just can’t think of a worse place,” Brodie said.

According to the leaked document, Vancouver Coastal " which oversees the budget for Vancouver General and St. Paul’s hospitals, among other health-care facilities " is looking to close nearly a quarter of its operating rooms starting in September and to cut 6,250 surgeries, including 24 per cent of cases scheduled from September to March and 10 per cent of all medically necessary elective procedures this fiscal year.

The plan proposes cutbacks to neurosurgery, ophthalmology, vascular surgery, and 11 other specialized areas.

As many of 112 full-time jobs " including 13 anesthesiologist positions " would be affected by the reductions, the document says.

“Clearly this will impact the capacity of the health-care system to provide care, not just now but in the future,” Dix said.
MORE. . . .
http://www.vancouversun.com/story_print.html?id=1878506&sponsor


Or even a Republican endorsed universal coverage plan:

Quote:
Universal coverage? First, look at the disaster in Massachusetts
Washington Examiner Editorial
-
January 11, 2009 To much fanfare from both right and left in 2006, Massachusetts became the first state in the nation to require all residents to buy health insurance. A new state health insurance clearinghouse was created, with taxpayers subsidizing those who couldn’t afford to buy coverage. Then Gov. Mitt Romney, a Republican, promised that “every uninsured citizen in Massachusetts will soon have affordable health insurance.” Yet just two years later, Romney’s much-heralded “solution” " touted by many as the model for a national program " has become an embarrassing flop.

Just a year after the universal coverage law passed, The New York Times reported, state insurers were already jacking up rates to twice the national average. According to Dr. Paul Hsieh, a physician and founding member of Freedom and Individual Rights in Medicine, 43 mandatory benefits " including those that many people did not want or need, such as invitro fertilization " raised the costs of coverage for Massachusetts residents by as much as 56 percent, depending upon an individual’s income status. So much for “affordable” health care.
MORE. . . .
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/Universal_coverage_First_look_at_the_disaster_in_Massachusetts_011109.html
0 Replies
 
 

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