55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Thu 16 Jul, 2009 01:47 pm
@H2O MAN,
Quote:
Are you my official liberal rain cloud sent to follow my every step.


Nope, just scoopin' up the **** for removal to the septic tank.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jul, 2009 01:47 pm
@Foxfyre,
How you perceived that there's a "message worth considering" doesn't exist in your email. It has no relevance to reality; no message can possibly determined by such garbage. If you fear communism/socialism for our country based on what Obama has done during his first six months in office, it's just your imagination going into overdrive. You and okie suffer from the same malady of imagined fear.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Thu 16 Jul, 2009 01:48 pm
@JTT,
JTT, And for the service beyond the call of duty, I thank you!
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  2  
Reply Thu 16 Jul, 2009 02:05 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

But, people were willing to discuss it. They engaged you in discussion of it. The email did not provide an actual 'example' at all; this was the substance of the discussion. That is to say, it is proposed by many here that an actual experiment of this type would not replicate the results, and that this doesn't reflect the way that redistribution is actually done; given that, what meaningful lesson can people be expected to learn from it?

Cycloptichorn


Sorry, but so far not anybody has been willing to discuss any concept other than they don't like the email as an illustration of a concept. Perhaps they are incapable of understanding it? The email was not describing how distribution of wealth is done but rather an illustration of human behavior when you remove expectation of a just reward for the effort expended. And, even though different kinds of distribution of wealth can be expected to also affect human behavior, not one of you even got close to that concept or conclusion. I suppose it was too subtle or abstract.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Thu 16 Jul, 2009 02:16 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxie wrote:
Quote:
The email was not describing how distribution of wealth is done but rather an illustration of human behavior when you remove expectation of a just reward for the effort expended.


Just how does that illustrate "human behavior when you remove expectations of a just reward?"

Please provide actual environments in which this occurred in a developed capitalistic country? However, I must assume you meant it as an example of what would happen in the US? ROFL
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Thu 16 Jul, 2009 02:29 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
Sorry, but so far not anybody has been willing to discuss any concept other than they don't like the email as an illustration of a concept.


I think some discussed how fatuous it was to take this example and extend it to what Obama is doing. Perhaps you weren't capable of understanding that, or worse, you doggedly refused to acknowledge the same because that left your "argument" flat.

Quote:
And, even though different kinds of distribution of wealth can be expected to also affect human behavior, not one of you even got close to that concept or conclusion. I suppose it was too subtle or abstract.


All you've done is repeat what has been all too clear to those that have disagreed with you. I addressed this very issue that you raised, above.

I know it wasn't too subtle or abstract. It was you, doing what you always do when you know you've fallen flat on your face, the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and humming loudly; the cognitive dissonance that has been pointed out to you numerous times.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  2  
Reply Thu 16 Jul, 2009 02:37 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
Just how does removing just rewards from human expectations illustrate human behavior when you remove expectations of a just reward?

You can't be serious!

By observing human behavior when removing just rewards from human expectations you can observe human behavior after expectations of just rewards are removed. The human behavior you observe after expectations of just rewards are removed, illustrates human behavior when you remove human expectations of a just reward.

See! Nothing to it!

He, he, he, he!
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jul, 2009 02:46 pm
@ican711nm,
Quote:
I think gross income is property and my gross income is my property.

The tax rates on my gross income were established not by Obama. The tax rates on my gross income were established by Bush in 2003.

You must be a really slow learner ican if you think Bush's taxes are taking your property but you didn't complain about it then. 2003 was 6 years ago.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Thu 16 Jul, 2009 03:07 pm
@ican711nm,
So what do you think Ican? Are they really incapable of understanding the concept? Or are they unwilling to acknowledge/appreciate that a conservative does understand it?
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jul, 2009 03:08 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

But, people were willing to discuss it. They engaged you in discussion of it. The email did not provide an actual 'example' at all; this was the substance of the discussion. That is to say, it is proposed by many here that an actual experiment of this type would not replicate the results, and that this doesn't reflect the way that redistribution is actually done; given that, what meaningful lesson can people be expected to learn from it?

Cycloptichorn


Sorry, but so far not anybody has been willing to discuss any concept other than they don't like the email as an illustration of a concept. Perhaps they are incapable of understanding it? The email was not describing how distribution of wealth is done but rather an illustration of human behavior when you remove expectation of a just reward for the effort expended. And, even though different kinds of distribution of wealth can be expected to also affect human behavior, not one of you even got close to that concept or conclusion. I suppose it was too subtle or abstract.


The email was not in fact an illustration of human behavior; it was a projection of the author's opinion of human behavior. Therein lies our arguments against it. We can't move forward with the discussion you wish to have, because the premises you wish us to accept as 'factual' are not that at all.

Your point was neither too subtle nor abstract; we see what you are driving at. It is merely wrong. If you wish to state clearly the proposition, instead of relying on a rather odd and not illustrative metaphor, I and others would likely be quite happy to discuss it with you.

Cycloptichorn
Diest TKO
 
  0  
Reply Thu 16 Jul, 2009 03:09 pm
@H2O MAN,
H2O MAN wrote:

Diest TKO wrote:


Why don't you just make this your signature, and save yourself the time?



Why don't you?

It's not my idea. Why would I put it on my sig Waterboy?

T
K
O
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Thu 16 Jul, 2009 03:10 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Unless somebody can give you a verifiable, real life example, you are incapable of drawing a conclusion re whether reward or lack of same affects human behavior? You honestly never had any education on that in all your years of schooling?
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Thu 16 Jul, 2009 03:17 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Unless somebody can give you a verifiable, real life example, you are incapable of drawing a conclusion re whether reward or lack of same affects human behavior? You honestly never had any education on that in all your years of schooling?


It's not that, it's that you basically misunderstand the rewards of taking the class; the reward is not good grades, it is learning the subject. A large percentage of the class is presumably going to study whether you average the grades out in any way or not. Unless you are taking away the students ability to retain the info presented, you aren't reflecting their compensation; and it isn't at all clear that the level of the grades would drop the way your author claims they would. It takes a pretty cynical view of the world to believe that all people at all times are looking for the quick buck with the least work, though now that I think about it, that seems to be exactly what you Conservatives believe.

There are several problems with the scenario presented -

1, the method of averaging does not represent actual wealth redistribution as it's done in America.
2, the students likely would not engage in the behaviors which are listed.
3, a real-life example of this would be required to provide usable data; otherwise, it's just the opinion of the writer regarding the effects of rewards on human performance.

My knowledge of reward vs. work, and the complexities of human involvement in this scenario, were not learned in any classroom, but in real life. People do things for a wide variety of reasons and cannot be expected to act predictably under given stimuli. The prospect that your chain email provides a usable data point for us to discuss is a little laughable. I could just as easily write up a scenario which has a completely different outcome, one in which everyone ends up with a B but with greater learning and less stress due to the grade redistribution; somehow I doubt you would accept my invented scenario as the starting point for a discussion of the merits of a socialized society, without quibbling with it.

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Thu 16 Jul, 2009 03:17 pm
@Foxfyre,
It doesn't have to be "real life" example, but it must have the possibility of it happening in real life.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Thu 16 Jul, 2009 03:37 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
So what do you think Ican? Are they really incapable of understanding the concept? Or are they unwilling to acknowledge/appreciate that a conservative does understand it?


I think:

(1) They are capable of understanding the concept;

(2) They do understand the concept;

(3) They understand that conservatives understand the concept;

(4) They are inventing and promulgating whatever sophistries they can in the hope of dissuading others from understanding the concept.
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Thu 16 Jul, 2009 03:40 pm
@ican711nm,
I bow to your superior wisdom, and until somebody is able to blow a substantial hole in your observation which I think is highly unlikely, I consider it accurate.
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Thu 16 Jul, 2009 03:44 pm
@Foxfyre,
It's futile looking to Ican for support re: capable of understanding pretty much anything, Foxfyre, but then, a drowning person will grasp at anything.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  4  
Reply Thu 16 Jul, 2009 03:44 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
The email was not describing how distribution of wealth is done but rather an illustration of human behavior when you remove expectation of a just reward for the effort expended.

No, the e-mail posited that humans would behave in a certain manner when presented with a particular type of redistributive scheme -- namely, a scheme that confiscates 100 percent of grades/income and redistributes them equally to all. As Thomas pointed out, this is just an illustration of the mythical, "hic sunt dracones" right end of the Laffer Curve. But even Laffer understood that tax revenues didn't disappear once the government instituted any tax on incomes. There are, in other words, redistributive schemes that effectively punish extra effort and those that do not. After all, it's the Laffer Curve, not the Laffer Descending Straight Line.

The e-mail thus takes one type of scheme -- a confiscatory 100 percent redistribution of grades in a classroom -- and use it as an analogy for some sort of taxation scheme that may or may not be proposed by the Obama administration in the future. But Obama has never -- and will never -- propose the kind of scheme that is used as an analogy in the e-mail, so it's simply delusional to think that the human behavior illustrated in the e-mail would be the same behavior exhibited in response to a far less punitive scheme of taxation. People don't react the same way, for instance, to a 39 percent marginal tax rate as they would to a 100 percent effective rate. In short, the e-mail "professor" wants to address a plan by the Obama administration that doesn't exist by means of an analogy that doesn't make sense. It's a strawman argument, pure and simple, which is probably why it appeals to you so much.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Thu 16 Jul, 2009 03:45 pm
@Foxfyre,
LOL, these two with superior wisdom, of like mind and perception of our reality, have now made an agreement of some sort that escapes me.

Everybody in the classroom (all citizens of the US) will be taxed 100% - or in other words will be tested and scored (everybody's earnings will be taxed to take away all incentive), and redistributed equally amongst the students - everybody will get the same grade (all the citizens of the US will share equally).

Probably a hint in the teaching of communism, but even then it's too limiting of an analogy.

Yup, makes a whole lot of sense.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Thu 16 Jul, 2009 03:52 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

Quote:
Are you my official liberal rain cloud sent to follow my every step.


Nope, just scoopin' up the **** for removal to the septic tank.


You're a turd herder! Good for you and those you clean up after!
0 Replies
 
 

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