AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre wrote:

And for an intermittant check in with Congress, Walter Williams has some comments on what the Senate accomplished in the last 30 days during the current economic and global warming crisis:

Quote:
A MINORITY VIEW
BY WALTER WILLIAMS
WEDNESDAY, JULY 8, 2009

Senate Slavery Apology

[snip]

Williams simply wrote a piece wherein he railed against reparations advocates. Unlike you, Williams did not imply that issuing an apology was ill-timed due to more pressing matters that required congressional attention. Williams did not mention "the current economic and global warming crisis." If you want to discuss the actual content of Williams' opinion piece, then do so.

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So far as I know, drugs are not a 'plank' in the social conservative agenda. Allowing the states or local communities to order their lives as they choose, so long as they do not violate the Constitutional, legal, civil, or unalienable rights of others, IS a 'plank' in the conservative agenda.

So, I have no problem with the State of Nevada legalizing gambling or prostitution or whatever they wish to legalize so long as a majority of the people of Nevada concur. Individual communities within Nevada can elect to have gambling etc. or not and that makes it even more attractive to the social conservative.

And I have no problem with states or communities who do not want certain activities in their communities and that should also be an option so long as a majority of the people concur.

In the Conservative playbook, such is what freedom looks like.

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@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre wrote:

If you've changed your MO and would actually answer a direct question re your posts, what 'stereotypes' about liberals do you see in Robin's screed?

Here is one example of stereotyping:

Quote:

These are a few of my favorite things:
a. Pledging to help Obama change the world.
b. Giving spare change to the victims of US hegemony.
c. Wishing bodily harm on George Bush and Sarah Palin.
d. All of the above.

If you selected D, congratulations! You have excellent LI. That's the good news; the bad news is that you are up to speed and know that there are countless people out there who despise conservatives.

Given the current climate, I didn't exactly pick the greatest time in the world to switch parties. I'm living surrounded by leftists, and hear trash talk every single day. Liberals are amazingly creative at peppering their daily chitchat with attacks on conservatives ("Hello, I'd like a decaf mocha, and didn't George Bush destroy this country?") If I responded the way I'd like to, I'd lose my livelihood and risk my life.

Robin apparently believes that liberals wish harm on all conservatives. She feels that living in Berkeley, she is risking her life and livelihood if she expresses any conservative ideas.

In reality most people are either 55% liberal and 45% conservative or 55% conservative and 45% liberal. I have never heard anyone order a decaf mocha while simultaneously attacking Bush (or attacking Obama). Extreme conservatives and extreme liberals are much rarer than Robin suggests.

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@MontereyJack,

MJ boy, I appreciate that you deem my words worthy of quotation, but I did not say anything about a strict, point-for-point
adoption of what the Libertarian party stands for... I just want conservatives to adopt more of what the Libertarian Party stands for.

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@wandeljw,

So you don't see Robin's list, though exaggerated which is allowed in satire, as representative of a lot of points of view we see from the Left? Do you think we have not seen each and every one of those comments made by representatives of the Left? And would not a "D" answer to each section on the Quiz be a pretty good illustration of an extreme liberal/Leftists?

Can you think of any of your liberal brethren on this thread who have:
1) Not expressed support for Obama and his agenda to change the world?
2) Who have not accused the USA of hegemony or who have ever defended the USA when it is accused of hegemony?
3) Who have not criticized George Bush and/or Sarah Palin in the most savage terms or who have corrected or criticized those who have expressed desire that some unpleasant fate befall either of them?

So all things considered, is Robin, whoever he or she is, dealing in stereotypes? Or is she accurately describing an ideology prevalent in the USA today?

I agree with you that most of us are not 100% conservative or 100% liberal. But that fact does not change the definition of those who are liberal.

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@H2O MAN,

H2O MAN wrote:

Robin is a recovering liberal and psychotherapist trapped in Berkeley.

You're wrong. "Robin" is a conservative who only pretends to be "a recovering liberal and psychotherapist trapped in Berkeley."

1 Reply

@H2O MAN,

H2O MAN wrote:

However, I do believe De-Criminalizing drugs is a good idea.

I agree.

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@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre wrote:

So all things considered, is Robin, whoever he or she is, dealing in stereotypes? Or is she accurately describing an ideology prevalent in the USA today?

I believe she is dealing in stereotypes. Her descriptions are neither "accurate" nor "prevalent".

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@wandeljw,

It belongs in the same class as the MACs on a2k.

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@wandeljw,

wandeljw wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
So all things considered, is Robin, whoever he or she is, dealing in stereotypes? Or is she accurately describing an ideology prevalent in the USA today?

I believe she is dealing in stereotypes. Her descriptions are neither "accurate" nor "prevalent".

More specifically, your original assessment was correct: "Robin" illustrates conservative talking points and stereotyping of liberals.

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@Foxfyre,

I'm not WandelJW, but ....

Foxfyre wrote:

So you don't see Robin's list, though exaggerated which is allowed in satire, as representative of a lot of points of view we see from the Left?

No. I see it as representative of prevailing conservative projections onto what they ominously call the Left. (With a capital "L", no less!)

Foxfyre wrote:

Do you think we have not seen each and every one of those comments made by representatives of the Left?

You probably did, if you count every left-of-center American as a "representative of the Left". After all, we are talking about millions of people here. Simple statistics tells us that if you look for people among them who say silly things, you will find them. But that is true of any ideology, so it doesn't tell us anything about liberals.

Foxfyre wrote:

And would not a "D" answer to each section on the Quiz be a pretty good illustration of an extreme liberal/Leftists?

No, not really.

And, since you have repeatedly addressed me as a liberal, let me go on record as saying that my answer is "no" on all of your three questions that follow -- with a possible exception of #3, which is to some degree a matter of opinion.

So yes, Virginia, you really are dealing in stereotypes.

1 Reply

@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre wrote:

But that fact does not change the definition of those who are liberal.

I don't think any poster here will be able to have any impact on your personal definition of who/what liberals are.

That doesn't mean that people that you may consider to be liberal actually hold the views that you believe define them as liberal.

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@Thomas,

But you left out my comments illustrating why the comments could be seen as more accurate than stereotypical. Of course I think omitting points or facts that are not convenient to their dogma is also seen as a "Liberal" (capital "L") trait.

I think conservatives are also able to see that valid criticism of one conservative is not a blanket criticism of all. I think Liberals are far less likely to make such distinctions. On another thread I have been having a discussion with a Leftist member who honestly thinks that because the Pope did not take a strong stance against Hitler in WWII that this is a condemnation of all Christianity. Leftists are more than willing to condemn George W. Bush for "lying us into war" while ignoring the fact that if such was true then their own leaders are ignorant nitwits incapable of reading and assimilating information put before them and willingly submitted the nation to a lying idiot.

A Conservative may strongly criticize the President, but they will also criticize those who agree with or go along with the President.

But I digress.

Stereotyping is politically incorrect, and will likely be incorrect when applied to any individual. But describing the beliefs, tendencies, mantra, talking points, behavior, actions of a defined group is not stereotyping. I am quite willing to have MACs defined toward the end of agreeing on what the term represents. Is it stereotyping to notice that Liberals will generally resist being defined by others and so far seem incapable of defining themselves?

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So, fox, if you reread what you just posted, you are saying that you think the stereotypes are in fact valid, tho no one on the left thinks that's what we're saying or what we believe.

So is the stereotype that conservatives are selfish, greedy, arrogant authoritarian egomaniacs who are intolerant of any point of view that disagrees with them and routinely vilify anyone who thinks differently with epithets like "treason", who insist everyone march in lockstep with them, and who are perfectly willing to sacrifice anyone for what they perceive as the conservative good, not a valid stereotype, simply because it's not what you believe conservatism to be, even tho we can point to people like Rush Limbaugh and Anne Coulter as manifesting all of those sterotypes? Better watch out for your own feet of clay.

1 Reply

I forgot to add "who insist on viewing everything thru a rigid ideological filter which is purely theoretical and bears almost no relation to the real world and real people, and are devoid of compassion and charity" to the stereotype. Consider it added.

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@MontereyJack,

I freely admit and have always admitted that I, like all others, have feet of clay. I am no saint, no genius, and possess no wisdom not available to the average bear and I am as subject to error as anybody.

I would say that yes, to accuse any person of being selfish, greedy, arrogant, authoritarian, egomanic, intolerant etc. because s/he describes herself/himself as conservative would be applying a stereotype.

To say that the average Liberal views conservativism and its proponents as selfish, greedy, arrogant, authoritarian, egomaniac, etc. does not involve stereotyping but is applying a definition.

To say that the average Liberal inaccurately describes conservatism in one or more such terms also does not involve stereotyping but is expressing an opinion about how Liberals view conservatives.

To say that Liberals generally reject any attempt to define them in any terms and also seem incapable of defining themselves also does not involve stereotyping, but is expressing an opinion based on personal observation and experience.

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@ehBeth,

Well said.

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@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre wrote:

Is it stereotyping to notice that Liberals will generally resist being defined by others and so far seem incapable of defining themselves?

Yes it is stereotyping, because the same description fits adherents of any ideology. Take yourself for example: So far you have resisted all attempts by others to define your political ideology, and have been incapable of defining it yourself. At least not in any way that lets your readers see the resemblance between definition reality. Hence, if you think you just said anything distinctive about contemporary American liberals, you just outed yourself as one of us.

1 Reply

@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
Is it stereotyping to notice that Liberals will generally resist being defined by others and so far seem incapable of defining themselves?

Yes it is stereotyping, because the same description fits adherents of any ideology. Take yourself for example: So far you have resisted all attempts by others to define your political ideology, and have been incapable of defining yourself. At least not in any way that lets your readers see the resemblance between definition reality. Hence, if you think you just said anything distinctive about contemporary American liberals, you just outed yourself as one of us.

I wonder how many times I have posted this definition on this thread and elsewhere? Ten - twelve - dozens?

That is being incapable or unwilling to define myself and what I profess as an ideology?

Quote:

Modern American Conservatism/Classical Liberalism
(adapted from Wiki)

Modern American Conservatism (MAC)/Classical liberalism (also known as traditional liberalism[1], laissez-faire liberalism[2], and market liberalism[3] or, outside the United States and Britain, sometimes simply liberalism is a doctrine stressing individual freedom, free markets, and limited government. This includes the importance of human rationality, individual property rights, natural rights, the protection of civil liberties, individual freedom from restraint, equality under the law, constitutional limitation of government, free markets, and a gold standard to place fiscal constraints on government as exemplified in the writings of John Locke, Adam Smith, David Hume, David Ricardo, Voltaire, Montesquieu and others.

As such, it is the fusion of economic liberalism with political liberalism of the late 18th and 19th centuries. The "normative core" of MAC/classical liberalism is the idea that laissez-faire economics will bring about a spontaneous order or invisible hand that benefits the society, though it does not necessarily oppose the state's provision of some basic public goods with what constitutes public goods being seen as very limited. The qualification classical was applied retroactively to distinguish it from more recent, 20th-century conceptions of liberalism and its related movements, such as social liberalism MACs promote strong national defense and necessary regulation to prevent the citiziens/states from doing violence to each other, but are otherwise suspicious of all but the most minimal government necessary to perform its Constitutional mandates and object to most of a federal welfare state.

Yes I resist the erroneous uncomplimentary stereotypes that the Leftists assign to me and other MACs, and so far not one of you who have assigned the insults have been able to come up with any credible evidence for their unkind opinions. They will sometimes cherry pick a phrase, as you did earlier today, while ignoring any qualifying comments that put the phrase into its correct context.

But show me any attempt by any of the Liberals (capital "L") who have made any attempt to discuss any point in that definition. Most ignore it. Some say it is invalid because Republicans don't live up to it. I could add another definition to "Liberals" in that they seem mostly incapable of actually discussing an idea or differentiating between an idea and a political party. They will invariably trash, criticize, or condemn people but too often can't seem to bring themselves to actually analyze the pros and cons of a concept.

So I have 100% outlined the core tenets of my ideology as a Modern American Conservative.

Do you have anything comparable to offer for the Moderan American Liberals? Or would you be interested in attempting to discredit any of the core beliefs of the MACs?

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oh, I see, when fox says something about liberals it isn't a stereotype but is an accurate description, evne tho it's not something we believe. But when we accurately describe conservatives it is a stereotype because it's not what they think of themselves as being (even though their mirrors are the funhouse type).

Riiiiiiiight.

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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

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