55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jul, 2009 03:56 pm
ATTENTION: Would those who are not Walter Williams fans and/or who are unable to understand his theses and/or who have no interest in discussing the thesis he present here, please do us the courtesy of scrolling right on past this post?

But those who look with alarm at the quasi-soft Marxism steadily creeping into our government and national psyche along with erosion of the freedoms, options, and choices open to us, please give consideration to Dr. Williams' thesis here with particular attention to the last paragraph.

The question that should be raised is: How much do you trust your government to do the right thing by you and those you love regardless of who is in power in the White House, Congress, or on the Supreme Court?

Quote:
A MINORITY VIEW
BY WALTER WILLIAMS
JULY 1, 2009

Why a Bill of Rights?

Why did the founders of our nation give us the Bill of Rights? The answer is easy. They knew Congress could not be trusted with our God-given rights.

Think about it. Why in the world would they have written the First Amendment prohibiting Congress from enacting any law that abridges freedom of speech and the press? The answer is that in the absence of such a limitation Congress would abridge free speech and free press. That same distrust of Congress explains the other amendments found in our Bill of Rights protecting rights such as our rights to property, fair trial and to bear arms. The Bill of Rights should serve as a constant reminder of the deep distrust that our founders had of government. They knew that some government was necessary but they rightfully saw government as the enemy of the people and they sought to limit government and provide us with protections.

After the 1787 Constitutional Convention, there were intense ratification debates about the proposed Constitution. Both James Madison and Alexander Hamilton expressed grave reservations about Thomas Jefferson's, George Mason's and others' insistence that the Constitution be amended by the Bill of Rights. Those reservations weren't the result of a lack of concern for liberty. To the contrary, they were concerned about the loss of liberties.

Alexander Hamilton expressed his reservation in Federalist Paper No. 84, "(B)ills of rights ... are not only unnecessary in the proposed Constitution, but would even be dangerous." Hamilton asks, "For why declare that things shall not be done (by Congress) which there is no power to do? Why, for instance, should it be said that the liberty of the press shall not be restrained, when no power is given (to Congress) by which restrictions may be imposed?" Hamilton's argument was that Congress can only do what the Constitution specifically gave it authority to do. Powers not granted belong to the people and the states. Another way of examining Hamilton's concern: Why have an amendment prohibiting Congress from infringing on our right to picnic on our back porch when the Constitution gives Congress no authority to infringe upon that right in the first place?

Alexander Hamilton added that a Bill of Rights would "contain various exceptions to powers not granted; and, on this very account, would afford a colorable pretext to claim more (powers) than were granted. ... (it) would furnish, to men disposed to usurp, a plausible pretense for claiming that power." Going back to our picnic example, those who would usurp our God-given liberties might enact a law banning our right to have a picnic. They'd justify their actions by claiming that nowhere in the Constitution is there a guaranteed right to have a picnic.

To mollify Alexander Hamilton's and James Madison's fears about how a Bill of Rights might be used as a pretext to infringe on human rights, the Ninth Amendment was added that reads: "The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." In essence, the Ninth Amendment says it's impossible to list all of our God-given or natural rights. Just because a right is not listed doesn't mean it can be infringed upon or disparaged by the U.S. Congress. The Tenth Amendment is a reinforcement of the Ninth saying, "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people." That means if a power is not delegated to Congress, it belongs to the states of the people.

The Ninth and Tenth Amendments mean absolutely nothing today as Americans have developed a level of naive trust for Congress, the White House and the U.S. Supreme Court that would have astonished the founders, a trust that will lead to our undoing as a great nation.
http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/articles/09/WhyABillOfRights.htm
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jul, 2009 04:44 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
Why did the founders of our nation give us the Bill of Rights? The answer is easy. They knew Congress could not be trusted with our God-given rights.


Idiotic statement #1. "God-given rights". If they were such then why did the founders waste so much time jabbering with each other. Why didn't they just ask God to write the Constitution?

Or better yet, instead of writing anything down which was dangerous in and of itself, because it would lead government to focus on what wasn't written and allowed them to trample on all those putative rights, God could just adjudicate on each little issue as it arose.

Quote:
Think about it.


Mighty good advice. And why not, Dr Williams?

Quote:
The Tenth Amendment is a reinforcement of the Ninth saying, "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people." That means if a power is not delegated to Congress, it belongs to the states of the people.


That's hardly the way things have turned out. Why? Because to allow the people of 50 states to have their petty little ways would have made the USA even more of a mess than it is now.


Quote:
The Ninth and Tenth Amendments mean absolutely nothing today as Americans have developed a level of naive trust for Congress, the White House and the U.S. Supreme Court that would have astonished the founders, a trust that will lead to our undoing as a great nation.


First, a correction; a good nation, not a great nation, just a good nation like many of the other good nations of the world.

Dr Williams disparages the very thing he says he adores, the Constitution. He's not willing to allow the mechanisms that the founders set up to control the very thing he whines about.

Who ya gonna call when your freedoms are taken? We don't know, the founders set up all these controls but they don't seem to work. We're in a constant state of paranoia because we've been taught to be overly paranoid by a series of civics classes more intent on propaganda than truth.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jul, 2009 04:56 pm
@Foxfyre,
Responding to the Article posted by Advocate, Foxfyre wrote:

It is amazing to me that you would seem to present the opinon of an apparently uncredentialed leftwing blogger, Don Monkerud, as gospel, while dismissing or trashing opposite points of view from people who have studied and analyzed such concepts in depth, who actually footnote support for their opinion, and who have applied it in real life.


Foxfyre trashed Advocate for posting an article concerning the disparity of wealth distribution and its present-day dangers. The article discussed a shift in wealth production from individual ownership to corporate income wherein corporate executives engage in reckless business practices for the purpose of padding their excessive salaries to the economic detriment of society as a whole.

Foxfyre trashed the author of the article as an "apparently uncredentialed leftwing blogger."

Foxfyre accused Advocate of presenting the article as gospel.

Foxfyre accused Advocate of dismissing and trashing opposite points of view.

Foxfyre failed to identify these people who offered "opposite points of view," but she alleged that these unidentified people "studied and analyzed such concepts in depth, who actually footnote support for their opinion, and who have applied it in real life." Foxfyre is oblivious to the real life economic disaster that America now faces because of the unregulated greed-inspired conduct of corporate executives.

Having trashed Adovocate, the author of the article, and its content when compared to "opposite points of view" which Foxfyre did not identify, post, discuss or debate, Foxfyre wrote the following:

Foxfyre wrote:
Still, while I mostly don't agree with his conclusions, Monkerud did identify a lot of concepts that should be debated on this thread if the numbnuts would stop tryting to use it to trash people, groups, and political parties.


Foxfyre has the audacity to allege that numbnuts will use the debate to trash people, groups, and political parties. However, Foxfyre's preceding paragraph demonstrates that Foxfyre squashed the debate before it even began by using the same tactics that she allegedly decries. Accordingly, Foxfyre is a numbnut and guilty of numbnuttery, as she defines it, because she trashed Advocate, and the author of the posted article, and the contents of the article, chalking it all up to the apparent rantings of an uncredentialed leftwing blogger without even discussing the article.


Foxfyre wrote:
For instance Monkerud says:

Quote:
In 2005, the top one percent claimed 22 percent of the national income, while the top ten percent took half of the total income, the largest share since 1928.


Please explain how this destroys US ideals so long as the bottom 99% is free and unhindered from aspiring to be among the top one percent?


Foxfyre stated that she disagreed with the author's conclusion. The author concluded that wealth concentration in the hands of a few people--who are unregulated corporate income producers rather than owners--is dangerous to the economic welfare of the country and the majority of the people. These top income producers of the corporate world are self-serving greed mongers who are getting rich by recklessly driving our economy into the ditch. In Foxfyre's oblivious world, the economic destruction of the country and its working people by the unregulated greed of excessively paid corporate executives is consistent with our U.S. ideal of equal opportunity for all. Apparently, so long as ALL Americans have an equal opportunity to aspire to become the reckless destroyers of the economy in exchange for an enormous paycheck, (even though 99 percent of Americans will never achieve that goal), all is well in America.

Foxfyre has proven that she is indeed oblivious to the dangers discussed in the article.
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jul, 2009 05:02 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

The solution for how to save our Constitutional Republic is to first impeach President Obama, or initiate his removal from the presidency some other lawful way.


How's that going so far? What steps have you taken to effectuate your proposed solution?
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jul, 2009 05:03 pm
@Foxfyre,
I don't have much of an argument with it other than the final conclusion. There are some points that seem to lead to a certain cognitive dissonance for conservatives.

Quote:
Why have an amendment prohibiting Congress from infringing on our right to picnic on our back porch when the Constitution gives Congress no authority to infringe upon that right in the first place?

Certainly the right to privacy is one that Congress has no power to infringe upon.
Congress has no right to infringe upon the right to an abortion either.

Quote:
The Ninth and Tenth Amendments mean absolutely nothing today as Americans have developed a level of naive trust for Congress, the White House and the U.S. Supreme Court that would have astonished the founders, a trust that will lead to our undoing as a great nation.
It seems Williams failed to read the rest of the constitution. Point 1 is that the US Supreme court has final say on the meaning of the constitution. It is written right there in the constitution so is a power granted to them.

Secondly. the people have the ability to amend the constitution at any time if they so choose. They can eliminate any action by the 3 branches by passing a simple clear amendment. Something that again is right there in the constitution. Of course, it requires a majority to do so which could be a problem for those that whine about how the constitution isn't being followed since they are in the minority.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Mon 6 Jul, 2009 05:05 pm
@Debra Law,
That's what comes of mostly just swallowing the tripe before the waste has been removed.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Mon 6 Jul, 2009 05:27 pm
@Debra Law,
icant is all big talk and threats, and no action. People like icant probably represents about one-tenth of one percent of the US population; all kooks.
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Mon 6 Jul, 2009 06:59 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I am repeating and will continue repeating to a rapidly increasing number of people who are repeating this as well:

OBAMA IS ACTING IN VIOLATION OF USA LAW TO ACHIEVE OBJECTIVES WHICH VIOLATE USA LAW
The solution for how to save our Constitutional Republic is to first impeach President Obama, or initiate his removal from the presidency some other lawful way. He is violating the Constitution of the USA that he swore to support. He is leading the transfer of private property from those persons and from those organizations who have lawfully earned it to those persons and organizations who have not lawfully earned it.
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Mon 6 Jul, 2009 07:01 pm
@ican711nm,
I am repeating and will continue repeating to a rapidly increasing number of people who are repeating this as well:

OBAMA IS ACTING IN VIOLATION OF USA LAW TO ACHIEVE OBJECTIVES WHICH VIOLATE USA LAW
The solution for how to save our Constitutional Republic is to first impeach President Obama, or initiate his removal from the presidency some other lawful way. He is violating the Constitution of the USA that he swore to support. He is leading the transfer of private property from those persons and from those organizations who have lawfully earned it to those persons and organizations who have not lawfully earned it.
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Mon 6 Jul, 2009 07:02 pm
@ican711nm,
...

I am repeating and will continue repeating to a rapidly increasing number of people who are repeating this as well:

OBAMA IS ACTING IN VIOLATION OF USA LAW TO ACHIEVE OBJECTIVES WHICH VIOLATE USA LAW
The solution for how to save our Constitutional Republic is to first impeach President Obama, or initiate his removal from the presidency some other lawful way. He is violating the Constitution of the USA that he swore to support. He is leading the transfer of private property from those persons and from those organizations who have lawfully earned it to those persons and organizations who have not lawfully earned it.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jul, 2009 07:05 pm
@ican711nm,
I wonder how many people there are to be found within the confines of that mental institution.
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Mon 6 Jul, 2009 07:13 pm
@ican711nm,
Quote:

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html
Article II
The President ... shall take the following oath or affirmation:--"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."
...
Section 4. The President, Vice President and all civil officers of the United States, shall be removed from office on impeachment for, and conviction of, treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors.

Article V
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose amendments to this Constitution, or, on the application of the legislatures of two thirds of the several states, shall call a convention for proposing amendments, which, in either case, shall be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the legislatures of three fourths of the several states, or by conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other mode of ratification may be proposed by the Congress; provided that no amendment which may be made prior to the year one thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any manner affect the first and fourth clauses in the ninth section of the first article; and that no state, without its consent, shall be deprived of its equal suffrage in the Senate.




ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Mon 6 Jul, 2009 07:16 pm
@JTT,
The Statist's mental institution is quite large!
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jul, 2009 07:23 pm
@ican711nm,
You'll have to post this two or three more times before it can be considered to have any veracity.
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jul, 2009 09:40 pm
@JTT,
Don't worry -- he will.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jul, 2009 06:46 am
@ican711nm,
Yes, Article V would be one of those that Walter Williams ignored in his conclusion.

Of course his conclusion could be similar to your argument ican. "Unless the country does exactly what you want it is going to hell." A self defeating argument if you want to use the constitution as your basis for arguing.
The constitution requires 2/3 to 3/4 to propose and pass an amendment. I doubt you even have 1/10 that would agree with you. The constitution and the will of the people are against you ican.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jul, 2009 09:57 am
@parados,
ican must be a very lonely man. His perception of reality is shared by very few other humans.

He's not only a rabble-rouser, but one that doesn't understand our Constitution, political or legal system.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jul, 2009 11:09 am
@cicerone imposter,
Ican can get his undies in a twist but I doubt he could rouse any rabble.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Tue 7 Jul, 2009 11:12 am
@parados,
He's an ineffective rabble. LOL
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Tue 7 Jul, 2009 11:24 am
@cicerone imposter,
My perception of reality is in fact shared by tens of millions of our fellow Americans. Clearly, we are not YET in the majority. Developing that majority will take time. It took time for the founders to convince enough people to support America's separation from England in 1776. Most humans, while seemingly slow learners, never the less eventually learn.

Y'all look out now! Here w'all come!

OBAMA IS ACTING IN VIOLATION OF USA LAW TO ACHIEVE OBJECTIVES WHICH VIOLATE USA LAW.
The solution for how to save our Constitutional Republic is to first impeach President Obama, or initiate his removal from the presidency some other lawful way. He is violating the Constitution of the USA that he swore to support. He is leading the transfer of private property from those persons and from those organizations who have lawfully earned it to those persons and organizations who have not lawfully earned it.

How about that! We just picked up a couple from Massachusetts that has decided to join us! Yeehaw!
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.31 seconds on 01/22/2025 at 04:11:02