55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 11:44 am
In The Spectator* there's an article about the often re-printed Sowell opinion:

Quote:
Thomas Sowell is a clever fellow who has made important contributions to any number of debates. Alas, he seems to have abandoned the ship of sanity to swim with the loonies. A sad business.

[... ... ... (quoting Sowell here)]

Logically, then, you'd think Sowell must coclude that Obama is the worst president in American history. After just six months! At the very least, this seems a premature verdict. And yet that's where so many so-called conservative intellectuals - to say nothing of National Review itself - seem to have ended up. To repeat, it's only been six months: what are these people going to say in Years Two, Three and Four of the Obama administration?
But, if Obama really is this dangerous to the United States, wouldn't the US military be justified in intervening? If the army can't save America, who can? And since America must be saved, it stands to reason that the military must do its duty. Surely it can;t be long, that is, before some conservatives start the drumbeat for a coup d'etat in Washington? Will no-one save America from this treacherous, appalling, more-than-just-troublesome President? Well?


*The Spectator is a weekly British magazine, same ownership as the Daily Telegraph. Authors are mainly from the Conservative Party, and here from the more right wing. In the USA you would probably call it a "neo-conservative" magazine.
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 11:47 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Yep, however you label the publication, this is another example of the looney left completely missing Dr. Sowell's message in that passage. Amazing isn't it? (I'm thinking that if the quote from the Spectator was copied and pasted, they are in serious need of a proofreader, however.)
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 12:01 pm
@Foxfyre,
I labeled this publication as it's done in the UK. I didn't use the language from the Left for it, though.

I'm not sure if this is published in the print edition the same way - it takes some time until I get copy via snailmail.



My bad, I forgot to give the link (something you never would do, isn't it, Foxfyre?):

So here's the quote again:

Quote:
The Worst President In American History?

TUESDAY, 30TH JUNE 2009
Thomas Sowell is a clever fellow who has made important contributions to any number of debates. Alas, he seems to have abandoned the ship of sanity to swim with the loonies. A sad business.

A quadrupling of the national debt in just one year and accepting a nuclear-armed sponsor of international terrorism such as Iran are not things from which any country is guaranteed to recover.
Just two nuclear bombs were enough to get Japan to surrender in World War II. It is hard to believe that it would take much more than that for the United States of America to surrender " especially with people in control of both the White House and the Congress who were for turning tail and running in Iraq just a couple of years ago.

Perhaps people who are busy gushing over the Obama cult today might do well to stop and think about what it would mean for their granddaughters to live under sharia law.

The glib pieties in Barack Obama’s televised sermonettes will not stop Iran from becoming a nuclear terrorist nation. Time is running out fast and we will be lucky if it doesn’t happen during the first term of this president. If he gets elected to a second term " which is quite possible, despite whatever economic disasters he leads us into " our fate as a nation may be sealed.

Logically, then, you'd think Sowell must coclude that Obama is the worst president in American history. After just six months! At the very least, this seems a premature verdict. And yet that's where so many so-called conservative intellectuals - to say nothing of National Review itself - seem to have ended up. To repeat, it's only been six months: what are these people going to say in Years Two, Three and Four of the Obama administration?

But, if Obama really is this dangerous to the United States, wouldn't the US military be justified in intervening? If the army can't save America, who can? And since America must be saved, it stands to reason that the military must do its duty. Surely it can;t be long, that is, before some conservatives start the drumbeat for a coup d'etat in Washington? Will no-one save America from this treacherous, appalling, more-than-just-troublesome President? Well?
Source

Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 12:08 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
You did give the link and I followed it which is how I knew which of Sowell's comments the author was lambasting.

Honestly I still don't know how educated literate people can get something as wrong or misinterpret what is said as much as the Left misses the point that Sowell is making in that recent column. But last year Sowell wrote column after column after column warning what we were likely getting with Barack Obama if we elected him. And so far he hasn't been wrong on a single point he made.

And if we continue to sit on our hands and allow policy and programs to be put into place that cannot be easily reversed if they could be reversed at all, we will deserve the government that we get. And I'm pretty sure very few of us will like it when we do.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 12:19 pm
The underlying motive to make and keep everybody poor or of very modest means seems to be a cornerstone of the current administration. You don't see any initiative or emphasis that would help people prosper. You only see the "Hallelujah! I'm from the government and I am here to help/save you" mentality.

Earlier today I posted the following in another context but it is equally appropriate here:

Quote:
Despite whatever the left may say, or even believe, about their concern for the poor, their actual behavior shows their interest in the poor to be greatest when the poor can be used as a focus of the Left's denunciations of society.

When the poor stop being poor, they lose the attention of the Left. What actions on the part of the poor, or what changes in the economy, have led to drastic reductions in poverty seldom arouse much curiosity, much less celebration.

This is not a new development in our times. Back in the 19th century, when Karl Marx presented his vision of the impoverished working class rising to attack and destroy capitalism, he was disappointed when the workers grew less revolutionary over time, as their standards of living improved.

At one point, Marx wrote to his disciples: “The working class is revolutionary or it is nothing.”

Think about that. Millions of human beings mattered to him only in so far as they could serve as cannon fodder in his jihad against the existing society.

If they refused to be pawns in his ideological game, then they were “nothing.”
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=Mjc2NGM4NTBmYmUwYzRkYzNmMGVkMWZhYjU5ZjEzNDE=

Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 12:34 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

I'm back and continue to be interested here in discussing why and how to return to America's Constitutional Republic!

I recommend you all read and study Liberty and Tyranny A Conservative Manifesto a book by Mark R. Levin. This Book was published in 2009.

I particularly recommend its last chapter: EPILOGUE, A Conservative Manifesto, page 193 - 205.


Welcome back, Ican. I actually have Levin's book and have read it. It is currently loaned out though. I am currently reading his book on the Supreme Court, and while it is somewhat tedious reading as it is more clinical than some of his writings, it is very instructive and affirms all my concerns about the direction the court has taken over the last few decades.

http://images.barnesandnoble.com/images/15000000/15005942.JPG

This is the NY Times best seller you are reading:
http://images.barnesandnoble.com/images/39540000/39543496.JPG

Levin definitely knows his stuff.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 12:56 pm
@ican711nm,
Quote:

A CONSERVATIVE MANIFESTO BY MARK R. LEVIN


1. TAXATION

Eliminate the progressive income tax"replace it with a flat income tax or national sales tax"for its purpose is to redistribute wealth, not fund the constitutionally legitimate functions of the federal government.

All residents of the country must be required to pay the tax so they have a stake in limiting its abuse.

Eliminate the automatic withholding of taxes, for it conceals the extent to which the federal government is confiscating income from its citizens.

Eliminate the corporate income tax, for it is nothing more than double taxation on shareholders and consumers, and penalizes wealth and job creation.

Eliminate the death tax, for it denies citizens the right to confer the material value they have created during their lives to whomever they wish, including their family.

All federal income tax increases will require a supermajority vote of three-fifths of Congress.

Limit federal spending each year to less than 20% of the gross domestic product.

Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 01:33 pm
@Foxfyre,



Quote:
This is not a new development in our times. Back in the 19th century, when Karl Marx presented his vision of the impoverished working class rising to attack and destroy capitalism, he was disappointed when the workers grew less revolutionary over time, as their standards of living improved.

At one point, Marx wrote to his disciples: “The working class is revolutionary or it is nothing.”

Think about that. Millions of human beings mattered to him only in so far as they could serve as cannon fodder in his jihad against the existing society.


The quotation Dr. Sowell used is from a letter to Engels, copying passages of his letter to Liebknecht.

It's just a few years before the Social Democratic Party if Germany was founded ...

Even in the English translation (here) it's not really what Sowell thinks it is about:

Quote:
‘Combinations and the trades unions they would give rise to are of the utmost importance not merely as a means of organising the working class for the struggle against the bourgeoisie " just how important is shown among other things by the fact that even the workers of the United States cannot do without them, in spite of franchise and republic " but in Prussia and indeed in Germany as a whole the right of combination also means a breach in the domination of the police and the bureaucracy, it tears to shreds the Rules Governing Servants and the power of the aristocracy in rural areas, in short, it is a step towards the granting of full civil rights to the “subject population” which the Party of Progress, i.e. any bourgeois opposition party in Prussia, would be crazy not to be a hundred times more willing to permit than the Prussian government, to say nothing of the government of a Bismarck! As opposed to that, however, the aid of the Royal Prussian government for co-operative societies " and anyone who is familiar with conditions in Prussia also knows in advance its necessarily minute dimensions " is worthless as an economic measure, whilst, at the same time, it serves to extend the system of tutelage, corrupt part of the working class and emasculate the movement. Just as the bourgeois party in Prussia discredited itself and brought about its present wretched situation by seriously believing that with the “New Era” the government had fallen into its lap by the grace of the Prince Regent, so the workers’ party will discredit itself even more if it imagines that the Bismarck era or any other Prussian era will make the golden apples just drop into its mouth, by grace of the king. It is beyond all question that Lassalle’s ill-starred illusion that a Prussian government might intervene with socialist measures will be crowned with disappointment. The logic of circumstances will tell. But the honour of the workers’ party requires that it reject such illusions, even before their hollowness is punctured by experience. The working class is revolutionary or it is nothing.

Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 01:40 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
I think Sowell's take on it was precisely what it was about. Marx did not want things to get better for the people until the revolution was complete. He actively tried to stir up their anger and militant passions lest they become content and complacent. It is precisely why the Left in this country right now is attempting to convince the people that U.S. healthcare sucks and they must not accept any part of it as it is. They have to keep the people stirred up and willing to revolutionize healthcare. Otherwise, the media might actually start emphasizing the fact that a large majority of Americans are happy with their healthcare they have now.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 01:48 pm
@Foxfyre,
Really? Sowell's take on it was precisely what it was about?
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 01:59 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
That's the way I read it. Yes. Perhaps you would like to explain how he was wrong. Put it in your own words. Take your time. I can wait.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 02:25 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

That's the way I read it. Yes. Perhaps you would like to explain how he was wrong. Put it in your own words. Take your time. I can wait.


Well, the topic is totally different (and I didn't write that he was wrong!): it's about the different politics in the existing "socialist" parties (mainly here: Ferdinand Lassalle's ADAV [Allgemeiner Deutscher Arbeiterverein,"General German Workers' Association"], the precursor of the SPD) and the government-friendly magazine "Der Sozial-Deokrat" [The Social Democrat].

It really would go beyond the scope of this thread and would be too much work for me (especially translating) to give a detailed background about the situation in German countries and the various worker associations from about 1830 ('Hambach Festival') onwards till 1863, when Marx wrote his letter to Liebknecht (and quoted it in the letter to Engels, from where Sowell got that sentence).

There are various good books published; Wikipedia gives some information as well (see: Wilhelm Liebknecht, Bebel etc).
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 02:30 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Sowell was not speaking of political parties. He was not speaking of the sociopoltical climate of Marx's time. He was speaking to Marx's philosophy of revolution that would destroy the existing sociopolitical structure and how the targeted subjects must be focused on disatisfaction and anger with the status quo in order for that to happen.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 02:43 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Sowell was not speaking of political parties. He was not speaking of the sociopoltical climate of Marx's time. He was speaking to Marx's philosophy of revolution that would destroy the existing sociopolitical structure and how the targeted subjects must be focused on disatisfaction and anger with the status quo in order for that to happen.


Well, in that case he took one single sentence from a letter written by Marx totally out of the context.

That's why I wrote: "Even in the English translation (here) it's not really what Sowell thinks it is about." [In the original German - and for a native German speaker and for someone with some knowledge of German history - it's even better to see.]
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 02:52 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Your opinion is noted, but I do not think the one line quoted was out of context of the point being made. Put the line back into the larger thought being expressed, and I think Marx was speaking exactly of the philosophy Sowell was emphasizing. It was a different time, yes. It was a different circumstance, yes. It was a different 'enemy' being referenced, yes. But the bottom line is that Marx was expressing concern that the workers not become complacent or believe that their 'government' would do the right thing for them. The revolutionary spirit must be kept going until Marx's great vision was accomplished.

Obama wants the people to keep up the passion and messianic fervor to overturn everything that exists now and replace it with his own great vision.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 03:10 pm
@Foxfyre,
Thanks for your interpretation about some background of the history of German Social Democrats.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 04:05 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
Your opinion is noted,

Fox being snotty and telling you that she knows more than you do Walter. Of course, being German you couldn't possibly know more about German history than she and Sowell do.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 04:29 pm
@parados,
Walter also studied history. I wonder what Foxie studied?
parados
 
  2  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 04:33 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I'd answer but I probably wouldn't understand and my reading comprehension is bad as well.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2009 04:34 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Well thank you for your thanks, but I gave absolutely no interpretation whatsoever of the German Social Democrats. And nothing I said suggested that I did.
 

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