AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

@Foxfyre,

Donald Devine in Foxfyre's link wrote:

Quote:

Center-right governments that have been prudent in their spending in Germany, France, Italy and Poland did remarkably well. Leftist governments in Britain, Spain, Austria, Estonia, Hungary and other socialist governments did very poorly.

We have in Germany a coalition goverment, with a equal number of Socisl-Democratic and Conservative cabinet members.
It's the very same in Austria.

The Estonian government is a centre-right coalition government since years (now a minority government).

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Again, I think Devine is using American definitions/understanding of 'left' 'right' rather than the definitions you use on your side of the pond.

1 Reply

@Foxfyre,

Wow.. You described yourself quite well Fox.

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@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre wrote:

Again, I think Devine is using American definitions/understanding of 'left' 'right' rather than the definitions you use on your side of the pond.

So what makes the Austrian Conservatives 'Socialists' and the German Social-Democrats 'centre-right'?

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@Walter Hinteler,

I don't care enough to analyze it Walter. But the fact that your government does not see attempting to 'spend itself rich' or 'nationalizing a lot of private enterprise' as something to admire speaks to Modern American Conservative (right) values, and not social liberal (left) values.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter, you aren't possibly suggesting that Foxfyre completely missed your point, are you?

I'm sure she understood your point of the German and Austrian governments being almost identical but one was called left and the other right. Maybe she meant the American right/left means German/Austrian as opposed to political parties or philosophies. After all, being a German you wouldn't possibly understand the American way of thinking. I'm sure Foxfyre knew better than you what you meant.

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@Foxfyre,

Quote:

I don't care enough to analyze it Walter.

You certainly cared enough to post it in the first place.

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@Foxfyre,

Well, obviously the news from Germany isn't of much interest in the USA.
Otherwise, some would be better informed.

But I honestly find it amusing that I'm now part of the "centre-right" political spectrum while those right-sided Austrian conservatives are "Socialists".

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Well, obviously the news from Germany isn't of much interest in the USA.

Maybe you could start a thread titled: German conservatism in 2008 and beyond Wink

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

We don't GET a lot of news from Germany in the USA. Unfortunately a lot of news from the USA isn't of much interest in the USA as testified by the extreme ignorance displayed by much of our citizenship. You ought to see some of the 'man on the street' interviews conducted now and then and witness how many people cannot answer the simplest questions about current events, the people who govern us, or basic facts about our form of government. It is sad and scary.

But the writer was focused on specific issues re the topic he was discussing and was not attempting to do a complete analysis of your forms of government over there. If you will focus on those issues, you might better understand the point he was making.

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@Foxfyre,

Quote:

But the writer was focused on specific issues re the topic he was discussing and was not attempting to do a complete analysis of your forms of government over there. If you will focus on those issues, you might better understand the point he was making.

If only you had ignored what the writer actually wrote Walter and instead had read Fox's mind you wouldn't have made such a silly argument. You just don't get what the writer was saying because Fox just told you you don't get it. Never mind that Fox didn't care enough to analyze it herself, she still knows you didn't get it.

1 Reply

@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre wrote:

If you will focus on those issues, you might better understand the point he was making.

Is there a particular reason you feel you need to make this kind of comment to Walter?

0 Replies

@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre wrote:

But the writer was focused on specific issues re the topic he was discussing and was not attempting to do a complete analysis of your forms of government over there. If you will focus on those issues, you might better understand the point he was making.

Agreed. And he did so using wrong labels - to call the Estonian government 'socialist' is ... well, it's not, even not in the USA - just to get arguments for his thesis.

And we (= our government) isn't any better than yours or the French or the British. (Oh, aren't the French socialists by birth?)

1 Reply

@parados,

parados wrote:

If only you had ignored what the writer actually wrote Walter and instead had read Fox's mind you wouldn't have made such a silly argument. You just don't get what the writer was saying because Fox just told you you don't get it. Never mind that Fox didn't care enough to analyze it herself, she still knows you didn't get it.

Well, I'm really trying to follow Foxfyre's advice what she told me since ages about the different views of political sides here in Europe and over in the USA.
But this seems to have changed now again, that view and perhaps more.

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@Walter Hinteler,

But Walter, as Fox pointed out with her arguments concerning Sowell, we need to ignore the false arguments used to support the thesis and instead only discuss the thesis as if it was factual and fully supported. Pointing out the underlying arguments have problems is not focusing on the issue.

1 Reply

@parados,

Well, yes. I'll try to get it.

But it's very hard since I'm one of those uneducated lower class people, as okie analysed ...

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter that was not a criticism. You yourself have admitted that you don't understand how we define 'conservative' and 'liberal' here because the definitions are so different from what you are used to. I am only attempting to explain what I think was the intent of the writer. I think you misunderstood his intent. He was not defining political systems in Europe. He was acknowleding some more conservative positions--our definition of conservative--that have been demonstrated by your government and others and comparing those to some unconservative positions--our definition of unconservative--that have been demonstrated by our previous President and our current President.

And I don't think Okie has ever described you as uneducated or lower class--that does not sound like Okie at all. I think you must be thinking of somebody else and if so, you owe Okie an apology.

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@H2O MAN,

H2O MAN wrote:

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Well, obviously the news from Germany isn't of much interest in the USA.

Maybe you could start a thread titled: German conservatism in 2008 and beyond

The first question would be "Does it exist?"

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@okie,

The real question here is, does okie exist?

1 Reply

@okie,

okie wrote:

H2O MAN wrote:

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Well, obviously the news from Germany isn't of much interest in the USA.

Maybe you could start a thread titled: German conservatism in 2008 and beyond

The first question would be "Does it exist?"

I suggest that you read Epstein's Genesis of German Conservatism and/or Between Reform, Reaction, and Resistance: Studies in the History of German Conservatism from 1789 to 1945, edited by Jones/Retallak.

(Unfortunately the -IMHO- best available book is not translated, Schildt, 'Konservatismus in Deutschland'.)

But it's certainly an adequate question, especially, since the British Conservatives left the conservative bloc in the European Parliament and formed with extreme right-wing parties a new group.

It certainly might sound outlandish that our conservative party [parties] is called Christian Democratic Union of Germany resp. Christian Social Union [of Bavaria].

But they are members of the International Democrat Union* like your Republican Party.

*The IDU provides a forum in which political parties holding similar beliefs can come together and exchange views on matters of policy and organizational interest, in order that they might act cooperatively, establish contacts, and present a unified voice toward the promotion of centre-right policies across the globe. The group was founded by several prominent heads of state and government, including Prime Minister of the United Kingdom Margaret Thatcher, then-Vice President of the United States George H.W. Bush, Chancellor of Germany Helmut Kohl and then-Mayor of Paris Jacques Chirac.

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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

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