55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
genoves
 
  -4  
Reply Wed 3 Jun, 2009 05:29 pm
Cyclops wrote:

Yeah, that's the heart of it, you are right on. I find the broadsides to be rather more enjoyable, because I have long suspected that a greater amount of in-your-face resistance to the more hateful and neanderthal-ish amongst the Conservative crowd was the only appropriate response to their boorishness, and one which they would not casually ignore in the fashion they do basic logic and any notion of responsibility or duty towards one's fellow man.
***********************************************************

Greater amount of in your face resistance? Get real, Cyclops! I have pissed on your shoes repeatedly and you are too much of a wimp to even try to respond.

You can't rebut me and your response is to run home to mother.

When you lied and said that Berkeley was not one of the most liberal places n the USA, I jammed it up your diseased anus with evidence.

You had no response and were left with your finger in your nose!

Read in and weep, Cyclops, because it says that ANY of your responses are tempered by the fact that they are responses nurtured inone of the most EXTREME LIBERAL HOT HOUSES in the USA.

You won't respond to this because you fear me. You do remember when I wiped up the floor with you, don't you. But this is for others so they will know exactly who you are.



ePodunk study identifies the most liberal communities in the U.S.
For all those frustrated Democrats who are considering a move to Canada, we offer a few closer alternatives.

Our list of "Most Liberal Places in America" is based not on opinion polls, which have come under fire in recent elections, but on votes, political contributions and demographics. The rankings, at right, show nationwide picks by the size of the community and statewide rankings for 29 states.

We considered the following data in making our selections:

Individual contributions to PACs
We analyzed 1.8 million contributions to 2,300 political action committees that could be identified as Democratic/Liberal or Republican/Conservative. This data, for the 2003-2004 election cycle, was downloaded from the Federal Election Commission on Nov. 9.


Election returns
Unofficial election results in the 2004 presidential race were reported at the county level for every county in the U.S., and at the local level for many New England communities.


Gay households
This index was compiled from the U.S. Census by Gary Gates, a demographer at the Urban Institute and co-author of The Gay and Lesbian Atlas. Figures were included for the 1,360 U.S. communities in which 50 or more couples reported living in such relationships.


Local government resolutions opposing combat in Iraq


Local officials performing gay marriages


Congressional District voting history
(Note: Because this factor was part of the screen for rankings, Washington, D.C., which does not have congressional representation, was excluded from our study. Washington residents who do not live in the White House showed strong liberal leanings in their votes for president and political contributions. The city also has a large number of gay households.)


Population
Community population, as reported in the 2000 census.
For more information, send us an email at [email protected], or call us, at 607-387-4181.

Released November, 2004

Other rankings


LIBERAL COMMUNITIES
BIG CITIES
(100,000 or more)
Boston, MA
Cambridge, MA
Berkeley, CA
Oakland, CA
San Francisco, CA
New Haven, CT
Providence, RI
New York, NY
Baltimore, MD
Seattle, WA



MOST LIBERAL IN STATE
(For selected states)
AZ - Flagstaff
CA - Berkeley
CO - Telluride
CT - Salisbury
FL - Wilton Manors
GA - Decatur
IA - Iowa City
IL - Oak Park
KS - Lawrence
MA - Boston
MD - Mount Rainier
ME - Orono
MI - Ferndale
MN - Golden Valley
MO - Kansas City
NC - Carrboro
NH - Hanover
NJ - Montclair
NM - Santa Fe
NY - Ithaca
OH - Oberlin
OR - Lincoln City
PA - Philadelphia
RI - Providence
TX - Bellaire
VA - Baileys Crossroads
VT - Johnson
WA - Vashon
WI - Madison


0 Replies
 
genoves
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 3 Jun, 2009 05:48 pm
Nimh responded to Foxfyre:

So you know what, this one time, I decide - OK. You know what - you challenge me to show where you used red herrings? I'll go through the effort of listing them all, one by one.
*****************************************************************
Oh, come on, Nimh. That's the oldest trick in the book.

Red Herring---Something used to divert attention from the real problem or matter at hand.

You imply that you know what the REAL PROBLEM OR MATTER AT HAND IS.

IN YOUR JUDGMENT!

When Bush gave his estimate of the danger from Iraq, the left wing says that he lied.

But, you would call it a RED HERRING if someone showed that many many prominent Democrats also had the same judgment about Saddam and Iraq.

When Bush gave his estimate of the danger from Iraq, the left wing says that the intelligence agencies crafted the data to give Bush the response he wanted.

But, you would call it a RED HERRING if someone showed that other Intelligence Agencies( from Great Britain,France, China and Israel were vetted by others to show that they too agreed with Tenet's finding.

*****************************************************************

The Red Herring charge is usually specious because it relies on the judgement of the accuser. That judgment may be quite in error.

Medical Diagnosis--John Doe expired because of lobal pneumonia.

The specialist tosses in ---exacerbated by an immune system failure due to
thyroid disease.

A red herring? Get real!!!
0 Replies
 
genoves
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 3 Jun, 2009 05:54 pm
Foxfyre wrote:


McGentrix tore into Cyclop yesterday for instance. Cyclop is one of the most offensive members on A2K but I still cringed at the language McG used to describe him. I can't condone it. But I have forgiven Cyclop at times for his frequent obnoxious stupidity and hatefulness because I have concluded he is incapable of helping himself--yes, that is an ad hominem conclusion--and I forgive McG from long experience of who he is, how he thinks, and the basic goodness of his heart that I know is there. McG is not prone to go out of his way to hurt or be unkind to people. Some A2K members do that. I would be proud to have McG at my dinner table. I would be very leery of those who think it is fun to hurt or be unkind to people.
*****************************************************************

I told you why, Foxfyre--Cyclops is from Berkeley. What do you expect?

It's like trying to put your trust in someone who was a friend of an impeached governor, took largesse from a convicted felon, was a good friend of a noted Anti-American weatherman who planted bombs, was(is?) a friend of a Senator who may yet be impeached for lying under oath and even though that persons promised transparency, he still wont admit he was an Affirmative Action baby.

I don't trust or believe Cyclops. I don't trust or believe the person described in the paragraph above either.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Wed 3 Jun, 2009 06:13 pm
@Diest TKO,
She doesn't even have to "gamble." She says that she has posted too many posts to go back and look for them. However, it's okay for her to question others about what they have said on a2k - going back thousands of posts. She asked me to prove I've said something, so I just ignored her. She wants her cake and eat it too!
0 Replies
 
JamesMorrison
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jun, 2009 07:29 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre quoted:
Quote:
"[The purpose of a written constitution is] to bind up the several branches of government by certain laws, which, when they transgress, their acts shall become nullities; to render unnecessary an appeal to the people, or in other words a rebellion, on every infraction of their rights, on the peril that their acquiescence shall be construed into an intention to surrender those rights."
-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia [1782]

Focusing on Jefferson's use of the phrase "bind up the several branches of government by certain laws" in the context of explaining our constitution is a glaring example of a founder (and others) validating the constitutionally stated goal of a small central government with limited powers, those powers circumscribed by our constitution's enumeration thereof.

John Adams
Quote:
:"The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If 'Thou shalt not covet' and 'Thou shalt not steal' were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society before it can be civilized or made free."
and Jefferson's
Quote:
"To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, the guarantee to everyone the free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it."
--

All this concurs with MAC principles that have been clearly explained on this thread. The latter two quotes embody the reason for that of the initial of Jefferson's illuminating the constitutional restriction of Federal powers.

Parados has posted statements by my man Hamilton that supposedly argues for Congress's power to tax Re the general welfare of American citizens.
Quote:
What is a power, but the ability or faculty of doing a thing? What is the ability to do a thing, but the power of employing the MEANS necessary to its execution? What is a LEGISLATIVE power, but a power of making LAWS? What are the MEANS to execute a LEGISLATIVE power but LAWS? What is the power of laying and collecting taxes, but a LEGISLATIVE POWER, or a power of MAKING LAWS, to lay and collect taxes? What are the proper means of executing such a power, but NECESSARY and PROPER laws?

This simple train of inquiry furnishes us at once with a test by which to judge of the true nature of the clause complained of. It conducts us to this palpable truth, that a power to lay and collect taxes must be a power to pass all laws NECESSARY and PROPER for the execution of that power; and what does the unfortunate and culminated provision in question do more than declare the same truth, to wit, that the national legislature, to whom the power of laying and collecting taxes had been previously given, might, in the execution of that power, pass all laws NECESSARY and PROPER to carry it into effect? I have applied these observations thus particularly to the power of taxation, because it is the immediate subject under consideration, and because it is the most important of the authorities proposed to be conferred upon the Union. But the same process will lead to the same result, in relation to all other powers declared in the Constitution. And it is EXPRESSLY to execute these powers that the sweeping clause, as it has been affectedly called, authorizes the national legislature to pass all NECESSARY and PROPER laws. If there is any thing exceptionable, it must be sought for in the specific powers upon which this general declaration is predicated. The declaration itself, though it may be chargeable with tautology or redundancy, is at least perfectly harmless.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed33.asp


Most of this quote simply argues that Congress has the power to tax and therefore pass tax legislation. Indeed, but within context. For, surely, we are not to believe that Congress can tax its constituency indefinitely for everything under the sun at ever increasing rates.

But parados has provided us MACs with further Hamiltonian collaboration of the argument that Jefferson, Adams, Madison, and Franklin (not to mention MACs on this very thread) espouse ,i.e. : Congress's power to tax must be confined to providing revenues specifically designed for the GENERAL WELFARE as defined by and limited to circumscribed enumerated constitutional powers. We witness this in Hamilton's next to last sentence of the above quote
Quote:
:"...If there is any thing exceptionable, it must be sought for in the specific powers upon which this general declaration is predicated..."
i.e. Federal Congressional powers, which are enumerated. But, again, using Hamilton's words found further along in the above link:
Quote:
But it may be again asked, Who is to judge of the NECESSITY and PROPRIETY of the laws to be passed for executing the powers of the Union? I answer, first, that this question arises as well and as fully upon the simple grant of those powers as upon the declaratory clause; and I answer, in the second place, that the national government, like every other, must judge, in the first instance, of the proper exercise of its powers, and its constituents in the last. If the federal government should overpass the just bounds of its authority and make a tyrannical use of its powers, the people, whose creature it is, must appeal to the standard they have formed, and take such measures to redress the injury done to the Constitution as the exigency may suggest and prudence justify. The propriety of a law, in a constitutional light, must always be determined by the nature of the powers upon which it is founded.


Yes, the government decides but has not the final decision. So we find Hamilton deferring to the constitution so that if the people find "the national government" has "overpass(ed) the just bounds of its authority" tipping towards tyranny, the people, whose government it is, "MUST appeal" to their principles (U.S. Constitution) and take such necessary measures for redress. This is a far cry from a Hamilton that denies a constitutional restraint on Congressional powers allowing it to pass all manner of laws to tax in all manners for any reason. The U.S. Constitution grants only specific powers to the central government. Everything that the Federal government does can only be legitimized by those specific constitutional powers and nothing else (unless the people change or amend said document). This in Hamilton's last sentence: "The propriety of a law, in a constitutional light, must always be determined by the nature of the powers upon which it is founded.”

Hamiltonian was known as a proponent of a very strong central government, especially the executive. He was even accused of being a monarchist (he was not). Washington saw the need for a strong executive but wisely resisted such calls even when he could have easily landed the job. But I cannot see any of the founding fathers approving today's welfare state or even such things as GM bailouts. They would have been appalled by a court decision to take away the homes of private citizens so that the state could have increased its tax revenues. They would probably encourage the state to cut its costs rather then appropriate private capital.

JM
0 Replies
 
JamesMorrison
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jun, 2009 07:40 pm
Apologies to all: Embarrassed

My Last post regarded quotes from James Madison's contributions to The FED papers not Hamilton. But I stand by my argument.
Thanks,

JM
0 Replies
 
JamesMorrison
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jun, 2009 07:51 pm
Sorry again, Re the previous post to the previous post, it was Hamilton in 33. Oh Well. I'm going to bed! Embarrassed Embarrassed

JM
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Wed 3 Jun, 2009 09:44 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

I wrote:
Some MACs are actually CALs and some aren't.
Foxfyre wrote:
So when do you see MACs as not being CALs?

Thanks for the reminder!

I was wrong!
As you previously defined MACs and CALs and just repeated that definition:
All MACs are CALs.
All Cals are MACs.

I should have written:
Some Conservatives are actually CALs and some aren't.
Some Conservatives are actually MACs and some aren't.


Okay that DOES make sense. See how easy it is to clarify one's remarks if just given the opportunity to do so? I doubt this little exercise will register on the MALs however, as 'equality under the law' in practical application seems a bit foreign to most. But oh well.
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Wed 3 Jun, 2009 09:55 pm
@JamesMorrison,
JamesMorrison wrote:

Sorry again, Re the previous post to the previous post, it was Hamilton in 33. Oh Well. I'm going to bed! Embarrassed Embarrassed

JM


Laughing Been there, done that, and trashed the Tshirt James. Smile

But the argument you make is definitely one I think will resonate with most MACs.

Probably none of us has been more passionate in his desire to return our government as much as is reasonably possible to those Founding principles than ICAN has been, even if I don't agree with his view 100% on all points. But he has probably kept the subject focused more than anybody.

But I will say that I have also appreciated Thomas today. While he seems not to have lost all his libertarian leanings, he is coming from a much more MAL perspective, but he competently made a competent argument for distancing the US government from those Founding principles. While I don't agree with his perspective on that, I do very much appreciate the contribution.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  3  
Reply Wed 3 Jun, 2009 10:00 pm
@Foxfyre,
After all your ranting about not being trendy (an underhanded thrust at those who disagree with you), and not being politically correct, you sure do LOVE, and I mean LOVE to hash words when it comes to a discussion on what a MAC is and isn't.

It's apparently very politically incorrect for us to hold conservatives accountable for the actions of the conservatives they elect. It's not PC to call the GOP conservative anymore. Nope.

In Fox's world, Conservativism is perfect.

T
K
O

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jun, 2009 10:10 pm
@Diest TKO,
They're perfect because they ignore all the boo-boos by the GOP/MACs during the past, present and future. (Future, beause they are now the "No Party," and contribute nothing to our country.)
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jun, 2009 08:20 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
See how easy it is to clarify one's remarks if just given the opportunity to do so? I doubt this little exercise will register on the MALs however, as 'equality under the law' in practical application seems a bit foreign to most. But oh well.


Foxfyre wrote:
Ad hominem does not have to be blatantly insulting but draws an assumption of the unstated thought or emotion or character of the other person.
or group, Fox?

Oh well, indeed.
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jun, 2009 08:40 am
Foxfyre -- a couple of pages back you asked me which privatizations and nationalizations I approve of, and why. (Not "socializations" -- thanks for correcting my English, ehBeth!") Here is a list, probably an incomplete one.

1) I approve of temporarily nationalizing the failing banks, for two reasons:

(a) I assume that "temporarily" really does mean temporarily. The Swedes re-privatized their banks after the government took them over in a comparable crisis 15-20 years ago. I don't expect America to be more socialist than the Swedes.

(b) It's less bad than the two alternatives on the table: The first alternative is to let those banks fail. That would have catastrophic effects on the economy as a whole. The second alternative is to infuse money into the banks without demanding anything in return. This is bad because it effectively subsidizes those banks for bad behavior, and fails to address the problems that got those banks in trouble in the first place. If taxpayers bail out a bank, they should get the same terms any private investor would. Any private investor would get equity in the bank for his money. That's what privatization does.

2) I approve of experimenting with the nationalization of health insurance, along the lines of the universal health care plans that John Edwards and others have proposed during the campaign. The reform that Obama actually implements should include a public plan. And if this public plan delivers better service for the money, the private health insurers should be allowed to lose as much of their business as the people insured choose it to -- which is possibly all of it.

3) I approve of experimenting with the privatization of the public schools through a voucher plan that gives every child as much money as it would cost a public school to educate it. The rationale is very much the same as for the experiment with nationalizing health insurers: Parents should be able to decide for themselves which system provides the best services for their child. The public schools should lose as many pupils to private schools as parents decide they should -- possibly all.

4) I used to approve of privatizing Social Security by, essentially, turning it into a giant 401k. But I have downgraded my stand to "neutral". I used to approve of it because it would have given retirees real property rights in their pensions, and would have given them the chance to invest their retirement savings elsewhere. I have downgraded to "neutral" because the plan Bush actually put on the table emanated incompetence and corruption, and wouldn't have improved on the status quo. But as soon as a competent Republican administration comes in, and as soon as they submit their plan, I'll give them another look. But I'm not holding my breath for competent Republicans coming in anytime soon.
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jun, 2009 09:05 am
@Thomas,
I agree with you, Thomas, on every point except privatizing Social Security. I am also happy to see dicussion of the scope of government. Isn't that the central issue separating political "liberals" and political "conservatives"?
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jun, 2009 09:15 am
@wandeljw,
Woops, I just noticed that Thomas is "neutral" on the subject of Social Security. (My opinion is that privatization would be a mistake.)
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jun, 2009 09:29 am
@wandeljw,
The biggest problem with Social Security is Congress raiding the trust fund.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jun, 2009 09:31 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

The biggest problem with Social Security is Congress raiding the trust fund.


This is without a doubt true. Conservatives like to attack SS for it's failings and shortfalls, without ever admitting that the program is not allowed to operate in the fashion it should.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jun, 2009 10:57 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Foxfyre -- a couple of pages back you asked me which privatizations and nationalizations I approve of, and why. (Not "socializations" -- thanks for correcting my English, ehBeth!") Here is a list, probably an incomplete one.

1) I approve of temporarily nationalizing the failing banks, for two reasons:

(a) I assume that "temporarily" really does mean temporarily. The Swedes re-privatized their banks after the government took them over in a comparable crisis 15-20 years ago. I don't expect America to be more socialist than the Swedes.

(b) It's less bad than the two alternatives on the table: The first alternative is to let those banks fail. That would have catastrophic effects on the economy as a whole. The second alternative is to infuse money into the banks without demanding anything in return. This is bad because it effectively subsidizes those banks for bad behavior, and fails to address the problems that got those banks in trouble in the first place. If taxpayers bail out a bank, they should get the same terms any private investor would. Any private investor would get equity in the bank for his money. That's what privatization does.


I understand your rationale, but there are other factors that I think must be included. 1) The U.S. government has been an abysmal failure at managing much of ANYTHING more efficiently, effectively, or economically than is routinely done in the private sector. There is simply no track record that the government will do a better job with this either. Further, if ALL the banks fail, our currency and economy become worthless no matter who is in charge. 2) I think a far better course of action would be for the government to have provided temporary loans to underwrite those bad loans the government practically forced the banks to take on, and then let them work it out. Those so poorly mismanaged they couldn't recover on their own should be shut down which would put a strain on the FDIC for awhile, but the well managed banks would pick up the slack. I think that would have shortened the crisis and lessened its severity at far less cost that pouring all that money into what appears to be a huge black hole.

Even Joe Biden admitted this week that some of the money will be wasted. (Translate that to a lot of the money or even likely most of the money.)

Meanwhile, I have seen nothing in the paper or on the television news that suggests that Congress has acted in any manner to correct the policy and initiatives that created the problem in the first place.

Quote:
2) I approve of experimenting with the nationalization of health insurance, along the lines of the universal health care plans that John Edwards and others have proposed during the campaign. The reform that Obama actually implements should include a public plan. And if this public plan delivers better service for the money, the private health insurers should be allowed to lose as much of their business as the people insured choose it to -- which is possibly all of it.


I have been listening to and watching the nationalized health insurance debate for many years now, and I remain convinced that this is a terrible idea. The country is too big with too large and diverse a population with two many for any 'one size fits all' program to work effectively. Further, in my own rather eclectic vocational history, I have had opportunity to see government health care up close and personal and will testify that the more the federal government has imposed itself into the health care system and 'nationalized it', the more erosion of the health care system there has been and the more expensive it has become.

We are now locked into Medicare and Medicare and the VA system in a way that is in no way satisfactory but that we cannot extricate ourselves from without causing severe pain to countless millions. There is no reason to believe that enlarging that process would produce any different effect.

No, keep the feds out of it and let the states put together their own programs if they want to. Meanwhile do not continue advocating taking away the freedom, options, choices, and preferences of the people.

Quote:
3) I approve of experimenting with the privatization of the public schools through a voucher plan that gives every child as much money as it would cost a public school to educate it. The rationale is very much the same as for the experiment with nationalizing health insurers: Parents should be able to decide for themselves which system provides the best services for their child. The public schools should lose as many pupils to private schools as parents decide they should -- possibly all.


We are on the same page here. But again we are too big with too large and diverse a population for a one-size-fits-all approach to education. I would like for the Federal government to maintain a small, efficient office to gather statistics and data to evaluate how the schools are doing, provide information to the states on college academic requirements, and dispense ratings of education efficiency among the states or schools and then turn the job of education back to the states and/or local communities. I think we would then see US education dramatically improve in a fairly short time.

Quote:
4) I used to approve of privatizing Social Security by, essentially, turning it into a giant 401k. But I have downgraded my stand to "neutral". I used to approve of it because it would have given retirees real property rights in their pensions, and would have given them the chance to invest their retirement savings elsewhere. I have downgraded to "neutral" because the plan Bush actually put on the table emanated incompetence and corruption, and wouldn't have improved on the status quo. But as soon as a competent Republican administration comes in, and as soon as they submit their plan, I'll give them another look. But I'm not holding my breath for competent Republicans coming in anytime soon.


No quarrel from me re the incompetence of the Republicans during most of the Bush administration. For the most part they were right in there on a par with the Democrats. But again, the Republican Party and Modern American Conservatism are not synonymous.

The problem with Social Security is that it requires that more and more of the productivity of the young to support an aging population. Any surplus is spent as fast as it hits the treasury on mostly projects and programs promoted by politicians and bureaucrats intended to keep those politicians and bureaucrats in power. The money is not invested so that it can grow. It is not held in trust for the contributors, so if the contributor dies early, the money is gone. It isn't available to his heirs or even to pay any of his outstanding debts. There isn't even any guarantee any of us will ever see a dime in the future. Congress, by a simple majority vote, can cancel the program at will.

Far better to provide a system by which the government can withdraw the money from your paycheck as it does now for those who can't or don't want to manage their own funds, OR allow the taxpayer to invest at least a portion of it himself that becomes his money to be spent when he is eligible or used to pay any outstanding debts if he dies or to be bequeathed to his heirs if he doesn't spend all of it. That seems to me to be what freedom looks like.

I agree however, that we need a different breed of Congresspersons than what we currently have to initiate and implement a practical and graft free program.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jun, 2009 11:03 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxie, The government is not going to "run the banks" but infuse necessary cash to keep them operational. Stock investors do not run the companies, but have the right to elect or decline officers of the company according to the number of shares owned.

The conservative rhetoric about "government's can't run business" is a tiresome refrain when it's misapplied.
0 Replies
 
genoves
 
  0  
Reply Thu 4 Jun, 2009 01:23 pm
@Diest TKO,
James Morrison posts a wonderful outline backing Foxfyre's thesis. The highly excrementious Diest is unable to counter James Morrison.

What a clueless imbecile!!
0 Replies
 
 

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