55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Apr, 2009 05:46 pm
@Debra Law,
Quote:
Unfortunately, far too many news anchors and journalists are being replaced by unethical pundits (like Limbaugh, Hannity, and Beck) who sidestep the facts (because facts are inconvenient) and resort to unsupportable grandstanding to inflame their viewers and to boost their ratings (and the money in their pockets).


And you think this is new?
Surely you remember the Dan Rather debacle, when he and his network tried to ambush Bush with forged documents.
Or lets go back further, when CBS (I think) altered a pickup truck to make it more dangerous and prone to exploding, then accused the car company of making dangerous vehicles.

For you to think this is a new phenomena is surprising.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Apr, 2009 06:05 pm
The Bush administration spent billions of dollars per year in their violation of the Constitution of the USA.

The Obama administration is in the process of spending even more billions of dollars per year in their violation of the Constitution of the USA.

We have tolerated this criminal activity long enough. Our federal government is mortgaging our children's and grandchildren's futures with their criminal activity.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  2  
Reply Mon 27 Apr, 2009 06:21 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:
Surely you remember the Dan Rather debacle, when he and his network tried to ambush Bush with forged documents....


Dan Rather was punished for his alleged misdeed. His long-term career, that was epitomized by journalistic integrity, was tarnished. He was fired by CBS. On the other hand, nothing is done about the debacle of the conservative shrills. They have no journalistic integrity at all. It was laughable (and the epitome of hypocrisy) when HANNITY and his Fox News chorus girls scolded NBC for its alleged lack of journalistic integrity when Jenean Garofalo appeared on the Olbermann show and expressed an opinion about the tea parties.

The conservative pundits who are scorching America with their fear-mongering and factually incorrect rhetoric are lining their pockets with millions of dollars. They are destroying the GOP by driving millions of people out of the GOP tent. The health our country relies very much on the checks and balances of two healthy political parties. Right now, the GOP is afflicted with a chronic disease known as the conservative movement and the unethical pundits who are getting rich by exploiting it.
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Apr, 2009 06:45 pm
@Debra Law,
While I dont listen to any of the three you listed, I do know this...none of them have ever claimed to be journalists.
They are pundits, giving their opinions, nothing more.

As such, they are under no obligation to be fair or factual with their statements.
Jenean Garofalo is also under no obligation to be fair or honest, and she usually isnt.

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Apr, 2009 06:52 pm
@mysteryman,
FOX News: Fair and Balanced News. It's okay what the claim as a tv station, because they only have "pundits" on their station.

From Wiki:
Quote:
Fox News Channel
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
"Fox News" redirects here. For other uses, see Fox News (disambiguation).
The satellite radio rebroadcast is not to be confused with Fox News Radio.
Fox News Channel
Launched October 7, 1996

Slogan "Fair & Balanced";
"We Report. You Decide";
"The Most Powerful Name in News"



Fox News Channel (colloquially known as FOX News and abbreviated as FNC) is a major American-based Cable News and satellite news channel owned by the Fox Entertainment Group, a subsidiary of News Corporation. As of April 2009, it is available to 102 million households in the U.S. and further to viewers internationally, broadcasting primarily out of its New York City studios.

The channel was created by Australian-American media mogul Rupert Murdoch, who hired Republican political strategist and former NBC executive Roger Ailes as its founding CEO. The channel was launched on October 7, 1996[1] to 17 million cable subscribers. The network slowly rose to prominence in the late 1990s. In the United States, Fox News Channel has been rated as the cable news network with the largest number of regular viewers.[2]

Critics and some observers of the channel say that Fox News Channel promotes conservative political positions. Fox News Channel publicly denies any bias in the channel's reporting.
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Apr, 2009 07:02 pm
@cicerone imposter,
You mean like this "pundit"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shepard_Smith

Quote:
The Fox Report with Shepard Smith remains the top-rated newscast in cable news and is ranked third in the top programs in cable news.[3] Shepard Smith tied for second (along with Dan Rather and Peter Jennings) most trusted news anchor on both network and cable news in a 2003 TV Guide poll.[4] In addition to anchoring Fox News Channel's flagship news program, Smith also anchors most prime time news presentations provided by Fox News for the Fox television network.


If all the journalists at Fox are simply pundits, then you must also admit that the "journalists" at CNN are nothing more then pundits, as are the journalists at the BBC, all the major network journalists, all print journalists, and everybody else in any medium that calls themselves journalists.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  3  
Reply Mon 27 Apr, 2009 07:03 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

You dare talk to ME about HONOR? Now that is funny.

Oh yes I dare, and I'm willing to put something on the line to prove myself right.

I've said that if I can't prove we are two different people, I'll leave A2K. If I do prove it you leave.

All the work falls on me to prove, all you have to do is ante up and accept. You mocking me is akin to saying you don't think I can prove it.

Of course how this is going to play out is pretty obvious. I go ahead a prove it. You choose not to leave. I suspect you would never honor the wager of my bet.

Foxfyre wrote:

I just have a hard time believing two guys about the same age on opposite sides of the country would walk in 100% lockstep, would use identical style of sentence structure, identical misspellings, identical phraseaology, agree on every point, and would so consistently show up to reinforce each other when one gets into a sticky situation. But it's possible.

This is the point Fox. You have a hard time believing you're wrong about ANYTHING.

Besides, what is so hard to believe? That two people of the same generation express things similarly? That two people given the same information can come to the same conclusions? That people on opposite coasts can think similarly?

Besides, it's not just Cyclo. Why not let your paranoia spill over to everyone else that agrees with either of us? Why would I care enough to create two different A2K accounts? What does it serve for me to make a wedding annoucement as one and then talk about my journey in the single dating world as the other?

Foxfyre wrote:

(At least that is the case since you stopped pretending to not be able to spell, capitalize, or punctuate at all.)

Well Fox, I simply switched to the (ironically named in this case) Firefox browser which has a built in spell check. It was annoying dealing with people who would try and avoid my points by attacking my typing. I still don't care about spelling and typing errors on a message board. It however distracted from the points I was trying to make, and giving excuses to the people to not address my points.

Foxfyre wrote:

However, if I am wrong, I of course will say so.

I'm waiting.

Two honorable choices:
1) Take my bet, and then lose, then leave A2K.
2) Back down, admit you are wrong
Two dishonorable choices:
1) Take my bet, and then lose, then stay at A2K.
2) Get proven wrong anyway, and never admit you were wrong.

Foxfyre wrote:

I will be on the east coast in the late summer. Where can we meet?

I live in Northern Virginia in the Washington DC area. But we don't have to wait that long to prove you wrong.

You being proven wrong is coming regardless.

Hell, I didn't know that CI had met Cyclo. Take a look at where you stand Fox. You lost. I was never going to discover that I'm Cyclo and you were going to be magically right.
Foxfyre wrote:

Meanwhile, since you refused my challenge, you are still checkmated.

No stalling Fox. I met your request even after you choose not to meet mine. You can disagree about that, but I did answer your question.

You've challenged me, and now it's time to play. My facts vs your ego. A bet of honor, where the loser leaves A2K.

Countdown...

6

Time to ante up.
K
O
JamesMorrison
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Apr, 2009 07:35 pm
I see that GM will now be jointly owned by our government and, get this, the UAW! This is absolutely fascinating. The new restructuring of GM gives the UAW 40% ownership in GM. VW AG has managerial input from its workers but this is a new game altogether. I just cannot resist the Biblical implications here. Is it possible that Obama will let the UAW reap 40% what it has sown? Is this another AMTRAK in the making? At what point, if any, will the government cut this entity loose (like the cargo sector of the railroads now private and very profitable)?
Up next is the details of the Chrysler deal with UAW and Fiat (I believe this Thursday is Chrysler's federal deadline here). Assuming that the Italian Corporation Fiat is unaffected by the American politicization of private sector companies, I see a deal that looks less favorable for all concerned, except for Fiat, given it so partakes. Simply put, if Fiat decides to pass on this deal Chrysler goes away. Unless Obama gets Geither to work more of his 'magic' here.

But don't count out Geither 'Magic' here. Witness exactly what our trustful and truthful government can actually accomplish--with some arm twisting and regulatory intransparancy, of course.
Quote:
Busting Bank of America
A case study in how to spread systemic financial risk.

The cavalier use of brute government force has become routine, but the emerging story of how Hank Paulson and Ben Bernanke forced CEO Ken Lewis to blow up Bank of America is still shocking. It's a case study in the ways that panicky regulators have so often botched the bailout and made the financial crisis worse.

In the name of containing "systemic risk," our regulators spread it. In order to keep Mr. Lewis quiet, they all but ordered him to deceive his own shareholders. And in the name of restoring financial confidence, they have so mistreated Bank of America that bank executives everywhere have concluded that neither Treasury nor the Federal Reserve can be trusted.

Mr. Lewis has told investigators for New York Attorney General Andrew Cuomo that in December Mr. Paulson threatened him not to cancel a deal to buy Merrill Lynch. BofA had discovered billions of dollars in undisclosed Merrill losses, and Mr. Lewis was considering invoking his rights under a material adverse condition clause to kill the merger. But Washington decided that America's financial system couldn't withstand a Merrill failure, and that BofA had to risk its own solvency to save it. So then-Treasury Secretary Paulson, who says he was acting at the direction of Federal Reserve Chairman Bernanke, told Mr. Lewis that the feds would fire him and his board if they didn't complete the deal.

Mr. Paulson told Mr. Lewis that the government would provide cash from the Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) to help BofA swallow Merrill. But since the government didn't want to reveal this new federal investment until after the merger closed, Messrs. Paulson and Bernanke rejected Mr. Lewis's request to get their commitment in writing.

"We do not want a disclosable event," Mr. Lewis says Mr. Paulson told him. "We do not want a public disclosure." Imagine what would happen to a CEO who said that.

After getting the approval of his board, Mr. Lewis executed the Paulson-Bernanke order without informing his shareholders of the material events taking place at Merrill. The merger closed on January 1. But investors and taxpayers had to wait weeks to learn that the government had invested another $20 billion plus loan portfolio insurance in BofA, and that Merrill had lost a staggering $15 billion in the last three months of 2008.

This was the second time in three months that Washington had forced Bank of America to take federal money. In his testimony to the New York AG's office, Mr. Lewis noted that an earlier TARP investment in his bank had a "dilutive effect" on existing shareholders and was not requested by BofA. "We had not sought any funds. We were taking 15 [billion dollars] at the request of Hank [Paulson] and others," Mr. Lewis testified.

But it is the Merrill deal that raises the most troubling questions. Evaluating the policy of Messrs. Bernanke and Paulson on their own terms, this transaction fundamentally increased systemic risk. In order to save a Wall Street brokerage, the feds spread the risk to one of the country's largest deposit-taking banks. If they were convinced that Merrill had to be saved, then they should have made the public case for it. And the first obligation of due diligence is to make sure that their Merrill "rescuer" of choice -- BofA -- had the capacity to bear the losses. Instead they transplanted the Merrill risk to BofA shareholders, the bank's depositors and the taxpayers who ensure those deposits. And then they had to bail out BofA too.

Messrs. Bernanke and Paulson also undermined the transparency that is a vital source of investor confidence. Disclosure is not a luxury to be enjoyed only when markets are rising. It is the foundation of the American regulatory system and a reason investors have long sought to keep their money within U.S. borders. Could either man have believed that their actions wouldn't eventually come to light, with all of the repercussions for their bank rescue plans?

Mr. Paulson told Mr. Cuomo's investigators that he also kept former SEC Chairman Christopher Cox out of the loop while forcing BofA to rescue Merrill. Mr. Cox wasn't the only one. Mr. Paulson and Mr. Bernanke both sit on the Financial Stability Oversight Board, comprised of federal regulators who oversee TARP. Two days after Mr. Lewis told the dynamic duo that Merrill's losses were exploding and that he was looking for a way out, Mr. Bernanke chaired and Mr. Paulson attended a meeting of this board. Minutes of the meeting show no mention of BofA or Merrill.

At the next meeting on January 8, a week after the merger had closed, the minutes again make no mention of either regulator telling their colleagues that they had committed tens of billions of dollars. Yet the minutes helpfully note that among the topics discussed were "coordination, transparency and oversight."

Meeting minutes suggest Messrs. Bernanke and Paulson finally informed fellow board members at 4:30 p.m. on January 15, after news outlets had already reported a pending new taxpayer investment in BofA. What exactly did Mr. Bernanke and Mr. Paulson tell their colleagues about their plans for TARP prior to January 15?

Let's hope they treated their government colleagues better than they've treated Ken Lewis, whom they hung out to dry. After making him an offer he could hardly refuse, they've let him endure a public flogging from shareholders and the press, lengthy discussions with prosecutors, plus new hiring and compensation rules that limit his bank's ability to compete.

No wonder no banker in his right mind trusts the Fed or Treasury, and no wonder nobody but Pimco and other Treasury favorites is eager to invest in the TALF, the PPIP, or any of the other programs that require trusting the government as a business partner.

The political class has spent the last few months blaming bankers for everything that has gone wrong in the financial system, and no doubt many banks have earned public scorn. But Washington has been complicit every step of the way, from the Fed's easy money to the nurturing of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and since last autumn with regulatory and Congressional panic that is making financial repair that much harder. The men who nearly ruined Bank of America have some explaining to do.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124078909572557575.html


Oh, this just in at: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124087751929461535.html#mod=testMod

Quote:
STERLING HEIGHTS, Mich. -- The United Auto Workers union would eventually own 55% of the stock in a restructured Chrysler LLC under the deal reached by the union and the auto maker, according to a summary of the agreement that was reviewed by the Wall Street Journal.

The summary also says Fiat SpA will "eventually" own 35% of Chrysler, and that the U.S. government and Chrysler's secured lenders together will end up owning 10% of the company, once it is reorganized.

The summary was distributed Monday afternoon at a gathering of union leaders to discuss the pact. The deal was announced Sunday night. The UAW aims to have Chrysler workers vote to ratify the agreement, which requires changes to the union's current contract with the company, by April 29.

According to the summary, Chrysler will also pay a $4.587 billion note into the trust fund, or VEBA, that the union will manage and use to take over the cost of providing health care for retired workers. The agreement says Chrysler will pay $300 million in cash into the VEBA in 2010 and 2011, and increasing amounts up to $823 million in the years 2019 to 2023.

The VEBA will also own a "significant" amount of Chrysler stock and will be allowed to appoint a representative to Chrysler's board, the summary says. In the future the VEBA will be allowed to sell the stock to other parties, it says.

Among other cost-cutting measures Chrysler and the UAW have agreed to are a suspension of cost-of-living-adjustments, or COLAs, and new limits on overtime pay. Workers will only be paid for overtime after they have worked at least 40 hours in a week. Chrysler workers will also lose their Easter Monday holiday in 2010 and 2011, the summary says.

Fiat has agreed to produce at least one small car in a Chrysler plant in the U.S., and to allow Chrysler to use a 3.0-liter diesel engine and a 1.4-liter gasoline engine in its vehicles. Fiat's investment, which the summary said Chrysler estimates is worth $8 billion, will "create 4,000 new UAW jobs in the U.S."

To ensure all Chrysler stakeholders are sacrificing to help the company recover, Chrysler will provide the UAW with quarterly "updates" and the contributions by "executives, CEOs, dealers, suppliers and other constituents." The summary says.


Essentially this is a equity for debt deal for Mopar's creditors and the UAW. From what I gather Fiat only has to provide a (very) small 4 cylinder gas and a small diesel engine for which it gets 35% of the company. Not a bad deal for Fiat as long as that 35% is not applied to a company with zero worth and which is owned by our government. Fiat must be getting something else here. As far as creating "new jobs" they must be like the Obama budgetary "savings" realized by not having a war to fight, or something like that...whatever.

Show of hands here. How many Americans will buy Sebring convertables with that peppy 1.4L Fiat in line 4 cyclinder or that Dodge Ram Pick-up with its dinky diesel and 500lb towing capacity? Hemi...what's that?
JM

0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Mon 27 Apr, 2009 07:35 pm
@Diest TKO,
5
4
3
2
1
time!@
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Mon 27 Apr, 2009 08:13 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Sean Hannity said last week he would volunteer to be waterboarded for charity last weekend, but he hasn't even responded to Keith Olbermann's offer to pay him $1000/second.

Typical conservative all talk and no action.
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Apr, 2009 10:39 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Sean Hannity said last week he would volunteer to be waterboarded for charity last weekend, but he hasn't even responded to Keith Olbermann's offer to pay him $1000/second.

Typical conservative all talk and no action.

I'd love to see Hannity do it. See how long it would take for him to admit to things he hasn't done.

T
K
O
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Apr, 2009 10:41 pm
@Diest TKO,
Yeah, we should all volunteer to add $1/second to Olbermann's $1000. It's for charity, after all.
0 Replies
 
A Lone Voice
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Apr, 2009 12:10 am
@Debra Law,
Janet Reno was investigated by the Janet Reno Justice Department, among other entities.

It would have been much more impartial if the Bush admin had launched an investigation after the Clinton admin left office, right?

In fact, with a repub president and a repub congress, they could have certainly examined the issue in detail, leading to prosecutions.

They could determine Clinton admin officials had broken the law, violating the constitution, and brought the appropriate people to justice.

Didn't happen then, but something similar will occur in the future.

When this happens with someone from Obama's admin in 2013, no pissing and moaning from liberals. And it will happen, next admin and far into the future…
Debra Law
 
  3  
Reply Tue 28 Apr, 2009 12:25 am
@A Lone Voice,
A Lone Voice wrote:
When this happens with someone from Obama's admin in 2013, no pissing and moaning from liberals. And it will happen, next admin and far into the future…



Your threat that payback is a bitch is meaningless. By advocating immunity from investigation and prosecution of criminal activity for government officials, you are inviting them to break the law. In this country, however, no one is above the law. We don't carve out exceptions for government officials.
A Lone Voice
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Apr, 2009 01:15 am
@Debra Law,
Quote:

Your threat that payback is a bitch is meaningless. By advocating immunity from investigation and prosecution of criminal activity for government officials, you are inviting them to break the law. In this country, however, no one is above the law. We don't carve out exceptions for government officials.


Except we have.

I didn't see any FDR admin officials go to jail over forcing US citizens into interment camps. But hey, maybe some of these wicked people are still alive; Germany still hunts Nazis, maybe the Obama admin should bring some of these people to justice?

By the left's standards, every person who participated in deciding to use the A bomb on Japan should be in jail. It's not too late; let's go after those people also.

But then again, the Eisenhower admin should have been leading the investigations into both of those prior Dem administrations, right?

The problem, dl, is this 'torture' issue isn't as clear cut as those of you on the left would like to make it.

In fact, it pales next to interning US citizens, wouldn't you say?

Debra Law
 
  2  
Reply Tue 28 Apr, 2009 01:29 am
@A Lone Voice,
A Lone Voice wrote:

Janet Reno was investigated by the Janet Reno Justice Department, among other entities.

It would have been much more impartial if the Bush admin had launched an investigation after the Clinton admin left office, right?

In fact, with a repub president and a repub congress, they could have certainly examined the issue in detail, leading to prosecutions.

They could determine Clinton admin officials had broken the law, violating the constitution, and brought the appropriate people to justice.

Didn't happen then, but something similar will occur in the future.


WTF are you talking about? Are you suggesting that the investigation was a walk in the park? If so, you don't know anything. You're just spouting bullshit that you made up.

Janet Reno was independently investigated by Senator Danforth, a conservative Republican. Janet Reno was also investigated by the Congressional Committee on Oversight and Government Reform. The chairman of the committee was Representative Dan Burton, a conservative Republican from Indiana. He was not impartial at all.

Burton went on a nationally broadcast radio show and said that Attorney General Reno “should be summarily removed, either because she’s incompetent, number one, or, number two, she’s blocking for the President and covering things up." Burton went on FOX News and told Sean Hannity, "I think she either misled Congress and covered this up or she was totally incompetent," and "she should be removed because she’s just not doing her job." Burton made many other false accusations against Janet Reno and Clinton.

Burton truly had a hard on for Janet Reno and he wanted to hang both her and Clinton out for the crows to peck out their eyes. He spent 13 months investigating Janet Reno. He required our federal agencies to produce over 800,000 pages of documents. He called more than 80 witnesses to appear before the committee. He sent investigators all over the country to collect information. He spent tons of federal money to investigate and, in the end, he could not support his allegations against Reno and Clinton.

Reno and Clinton were put through the investigative wringer. Any ignorant suggestion that you make to the contrary is a crock of bullshit.

0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  2  
Reply Tue 28 Apr, 2009 01:45 am
@A Lone Voice,
A Lone Voice wrote:

In fact, it pales next to interning US citizens, wouldn't you say?


Torture does NOT pale in comparison to interning US citizes. Both are reprehensible.

Our government officially apologized for violating the civil rights of Japanese-Americans. The Civil Liberties Act, signed by President Reagan, "provided $1.65 billion in restitution to 82,000 individuals of Japanese ancestry who had been subjected to evacuation, relocation and internment during World War II."

When you stop worshipping Bush's imperial presidency, maybe your head will be clear enough for you to understand that torture and abuse is never acceptable. How much restitution do we owe a human being for nearly suffocating him to death 183 times? How do we make amends to the whole world and regain our moral center? We can start by investigating and prosecuting those responsible for the torture and abuse.
Woiyo9
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Apr, 2009 06:11 am
@Debra Law,
So if Bush apologized, would that make you feel better ?

Probably not, since you interested in only one thing which is prosecution as a remedy for perceived past aggressions to your liberal friends/causes.

the transparency of your post are humorous. Keep them coming!!

0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Apr, 2009 06:25 am
@Debra Law,
Debra Law wrote:

When you stop worshipping Bush's imperial presidency, maybe your head will be clear enough for you to understand that torture and abuse is never acceptable. How much restitution do we owe a human being for nearly suffocating him to death 183 times? How do we make amends to the whole world and regain our moral center? We can start by investigating and prosecuting those responsible for the torture and abuse.


"..amends to the whole world..." what a laugh. Shall we start with Germany? or France (Algeria 1955-1964)? or the long history of the British Empire? Russia? China? Uganda? Congo? Rwanda? Cuba? Venezuela? Argentina?

"... torture and abuse is never acceptable..." Never, is a strong word, admitting of no modification, while torture and abuse are rather elastic. Moreover the events at hand involved only three people all of whom were involved in large-scale killings of Americans on behalf of an organization that promised to to more of it, and of which we then had anecdotal confirmation. The previous administration claimed the information so gathered contributed significantly to the interception of a planned attack in Los Angeles and unspecified others. The current administration has not chosen to release any of that information.

Meanwhile the Obama Administration continues to use and defend the U.S. prision in Bagram airbase in Afghanistan - one which operates on exactly the same premise, rationalization and rules as the one in Guantanamo.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Apr, 2009 08:33 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Moreover the events at hand involved only three people


George,

Surely you are not so naive as to believe that this is true? You know that it involved more than three people.

Every time the Bush admin has admitted something on this issue, it's been a lie.

First, we don't torture.
Then, well, maybe we rough 'em up a bit.
Then, well, maybe we use stress positions and humiliation.
And dogs. Yeah, we use those too.
But we don't waterboard! Except, we do. But only a couple of times!
Actually, we did it quite a bit, along with a bunch of other unsavory stuff.

They are still lying, George. The truth will never be fully admitted, but the concept that we limited abuse to three people is laughable. In Bagram and Abu Ghraib we beat and tortured people to death.

Quote:
The previous administration claimed the information so gathered contributed significantly to the interception of a planned attack in Los Angeles and unspecified others.


Once again, a lie. The 'LA tower' attack was busted up in late 2002. We didn't (supposedly) start waterboarding KSM and others until 2oo3. KSM admitted to things we already knew about and had already stopped. There's no justification here.

Remember Bush's words, right before the invasion of Iraq?

Quote:
War crimes will be prosecuted, war criminals will be punished and it will be no defense to say, “I was just following orders.”


It should be no defense for us, either. We should investigate those who ordered torture to be done, reportedly to try and get evidence of a link between AQ and Iraq. We should investigate those who wrote legal opinions specifically in order to justify torture. We should investigate those in the CIA who carried it out. And we should try any and all who are found to be culpable in the beating, torture and murder of US prisoners.

Cycloptichorn
 

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