AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

Yes I am reasonably certain of that--not that other spending does not create private sector jobs, but defense spending generally creates far more permanent kinds of private sector jobs.

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=simpleton&x=26&y=9
Main Entry: sim·ple·ton Pronunciation Guide
Pronunciation: simpltn, -tn
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): -s
Etymology: 1simple + -ton, as in skimmington
: a simpleminded person
synonym see FOOL

Why did we spend those billions that didn't protect our soldiers, and wasted those billions trying to rebuild a country still at war?

Ican, you did not respond to my post here -

http://able2know.org/topic/113196-376#post-3631347

Which clearly shows that Bush's deficit was more than double what you claim it is. Can you respond to this?

CYCLOPTICHORN: Don't forget to add the costs of the war to Bush's deficit additions. They were off-budget but we spent the monies just the same.

ICAN:Those numbers are the result of including both on and off budget expenditures.

CYCLOPTICHORN: Hmm. Are you sure? You state:

ICAN: Obama's budget for the 8 years, 2009 through 2016, predicts a total deficit of $6,789 billion. Bush's total budget deficit for the 8 years, 2001 through 2008, was less than $1,962 billion.

CYCLOPTICHORNBut, if Bush's budget deficit for 8 years was less than two [TR]illion, how did our debt go up by much more than that?

ICAN: Our debt DID NOT go up much more than that during Bush's 2001 thru 2008 term.

ICAN: You can check yourself that the numbers I posted for Bush's annual deficits included both on and off budget deficits. Here: it all is:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2009/pdf/hist.pdf
(FROM HISTORICAL TABLES: TABLE 1.2, PAGE NUMBERED 25)
GWB ACTUAL BUDGET SURPLUS & DEFICITS IN $BILLIONS
2001 130.8
2002 -155.7
2003 -378.3
2004 -414
2005 -318.2
2006 -247.3
2007 -164
2008 -415
GWB TOTAL BUDGET DEFICIT 2001 THRU 2008 = 1,961.7 BILLION

By the way, $1,961.7 billion DOES NOT equal less than $2 billion. It equals $1.9617 TRILLION--OR LESS THAN $1,962 BILLION, OR LESS THAN $1.962 TRILLION, or ALMOST $2 TRILLION.

Foxfyre wrote:

Yes I am reasonably certain of that--not that other spending does not create private sector jobs, but defense spending generally creates far more permanent kinds of private sector jobs.

Only if we are more or less in a permanent state of war, which could be perpetuated by the desire of those who feel their jobs should be permanent. The amount of waste that goes hand in hand with defense spending tops any other department. We create jobs by building things we don't need. We go to war because we have all these people to employ and all this equipment lying around. We pay millions and billions to develop systems that never get deployed, or equipment that doesn't meet our needs.

If you spend that money to build a bridge, perhaps the construction jobs are short lived. But the bridge connects places and helps to expand commerce. Same with roads. If you spend it on education you create an educated work force and a new generation of entrepreneurs who can continue to drive the economy. Businesses -- especially small ones -- need infrastructure. Sucking on the defense teat is no different, and may even be worse than, sucking on the welfare teat. Infrastructure spending makes sense.

ican is a simpleton; he still wants to insist that GW Bush's budget lasted for eight years for two terms, but Obama's budget is sixteen years after serving three months in office.

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=simpleton&x=26&y=9
Main Entry: sim·ple·ton Pronunciation Guide
Pronunciation: simpltn, -tn
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): -s
Etymology: 1simple + -ton, as in skimmington
: a simpleminded person
synonym see FOOL

2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 2010-2014 2010-2019
Budget Totals in Billions of dollars:
receipts ..... 2,524 2,186 2,381 2,713 3,081 3,323 3,500 3,675 3,856 4,042 4,234 4,446 14,997 35,250
Outlays ......2,983 3,938 3,552 3,625 3,662 3,856 4,069 4,258 4,493 4,678 4,868 5,158 18,764 42,219
Deficit ........ 459 1,752 1,171 912 581 533 570 583 637 636 634 712 3,767 6,969

Foxfyre wrote:

Yes I am reasonably certain of that--not that other spending does not create private sector jobs, but defense spending generally creates far more permanent kinds of private sector jobs.

Only if we are more or less in a permanent state of war, which could be perpetuated by the desire of those who feel their jobs should be permanent. The amount of waste that goes hand in hand with defense spending tops any other department. We create jobs by building things we don't need. We go to war because we have all these people to employ and all this equipment lying around. We pay millions and billions to develop systems that never get deployed, or equipment that doesn't meet our needs.

If you spend that money to build a bridge, perhaps the construction jobs are short lived. But the bridge connects places and helps to expand commerce. Same with roads. If you spend it on education you create an educated work force and a new generation of entrepreneurs who can continue to drive the economy. Businesses -- especially small ones -- need infrastructure. Sucking on the defense teat is no different, and may even be worse than, sucking on the welfare teat. Infrastructure spending makes sense.

Debra, please check with the following to see what Bush's expenditures were: 2001 thru 2008:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2009/pdf/hist.pdf
FROM Budget Authority by Agency: TABLE 5.2, PAGEs NUMBERED 104 and 105 (in millions of dollars).
In 2008, Defense Military expenditures were estimated at $670,517 million out of a total budget of $3,013,088 million.

Summary

With enactment of the FY2008 Supplemental and FY2009 Bridge Fund(H.R. 2642/P.L. 110-252) on June 30, 2008, Congress has approved a total of about $864 billion for military operations, base security, reconstruction, foreign aid, embassy costs, and veterans’ health care for the three operations initiated since the 9/11 attacks: Operation Enduring Freedom (OEF )Afghanistan and other counter terror operations; Operation Noble Eagle (ONE), providing enhanced security at military bases; and Operation Iraqi Freedom (OIF).

This $864 billion total covers all war-related appropriations from FY2001 through part of FY2009 in supplementals, regular appropriations, and continuing resolutions. Of that total, CRS estimates that Iraq will receive about $657 billion (76%), OEF about $173 billion (20%), and enhanced base security about $28 billion (3%), with about $5 billion that CRS cannot allocate (1%). About 94% of the funds are for DOD, 6% for foreign aid programs and embassy operations, and less than 1% for medical care for veterans. As of July 2008, DOD’s monthly obligations for contracts and pay averaged about $12.3 billion, including $9.9 billion for Iraq, and $2.4 billion for Afghanistan.

The recently enacted FY2008 Supplemental (H.R. 2642/P.L. 110-252) includes a total of about $160 billion for war costs for the Department of Defense (DOD) for the rest of FY2008 and part of FY2009. Funds are expected to last until June or July 2009 well into a new Administration. The Administration did not submit a request to cover all of FY2009.

While Congress provided a total of $188 billion for war costs in FY2008 " $17 billion more than the prior year " this total was a cut of about $14 billion to the Administration’s request, including both reductions in DOD’s investment accounts and substitutions of almost $6 billion in non-war funding. CRS figures exclude nonwar funding.

Congress also cut funding for foreign aid and diplomatic operations for Iraq and Afghanistan by $1.4 billion, providing a total of $4.5 billion. For FY2009, Congress provided $67 billion, close to the request. Earlier, to tide DOD over until passage of the supplemental, the House and Senate appropriations committees approved part of a DOD request to transfer funds from its regular accounts.

In an August 2008 update, the Congressional Budget Office projected that additional war costs for the next ten years from FY2009 through FY2018 could range from $440 billion, if troop levels fell to 30,000 by 2010 to $865 billion, if troop levels fell to 75,000 by about 2013. Under these CBO projections, funding for Iraq, Afghanistan and the GWOT could total about $1.3 trillion or about $1.7 trillion for FY2001-FY2018. This report will be updated as warranted.