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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Apr, 2009 04:34 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:
Provide for the common defense partly means securing the border, "promote the general welfare" could include disaster cleanup to avoid diseases.


And legislation enacted by Congress under the commerce clause and money appropriated by Congress under the tax and spend clause may be used by the federal government to clean up the economic disaster caused by greedy corporations/executives in their "get rich quick" schemes that took advantage of conservative policies that embraced laissez faire capitalism but made them accountable to no one. It's ironic that those who embraced the nefarious policies that allowed the disaster to happen are now protesting the government's efforts to help the nation recover. It's akin to the gun activists, having shot off the arms and legs of all Americans, protesting government intervention because they're convinced the bleeding they caused will stop all on its own and everyone's limbs will magically grow back if the paramedic just gets out of the way.
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Apr, 2009 04:39 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
THere is nothing in the constitution anywhere that makes education a federal matter, nor is there anything that makes unemployment benefits a federal matter.

Unlike you, I believe the constitution means exactly what it says, no more and no less.
I do not read into it what isnt there.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Apr, 2009 04:42 pm
@Debra Law,
Quote:
And legislation enacted by Congress under the commerce clause and money appropriated by Congress under the tax and spend clause may be used by the federal government to clean up the economic disaster caused by greedy corporations/executives in their "get rich quick" schemes that took advantage of conservative policies that embraced laissez faire capitalism but made them accountable to no one.


I 100% agree with you.
However, there is nothing in the Constitution ANYWHERE that says the federal govt can force states to take money they dont want, nor is there anything that allows the federal govt to determine HOW a state spends money.

And IMHO, that is what Gov Perry is saying.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Apr, 2009 04:43 pm
@mysteryman,
mm, That's all fine and good, but you fail to see the hypocrisy.
Debra Law
 
  2  
Reply Wed 15 Apr, 2009 04:45 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:
Perry is expecting the federal govt to carry out their constitutionally mandated responsibilities and to leave the state alone otherwise.



NO. Perry is saying, GIVE ME FEDERAL MONEY and let me SPEND it however I want. But, Congress's power over the purse means Congress may attach any strings it chooses on the federal money it doles out. If Congress gives TEXAS millions of dollars to build roads and highways on the condition that TEXAS enact specified speed limits for the public welfare, then the state has a choice: It can comply with the condition and take the money, or it can refuse the money. Strings placed on federal money does not interfere with state sovereignty.
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Apr, 2009 04:47 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Based on the list you prvided, I dont see the hypocrisy, with the possible exception of asking for FEMA help.

Quote:
Governor Rick Perry, five days ago: Governor Perry Calls FEMA To Assist With Wildfires

" Governor Rick Perry, last month: Governor Perry Calls For 1,000 Troops To Be Sent To Border

" Governor Rick Perry, five months ago: Governor Perry Requests 18 Month Extension Of Federal Aid For Ike Debris Removal


The other things on that list ARE federal responsibilities as outlined in the Constitution.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Apr, 2009 04:49 pm
@Debra Law,
I am agreeing with you.
However, congress cannot force a state to accept any federal money for its roads (to use your example).
If a state decides not to accept federal money, then that state is free to spend its money any way it chooses, without govt interference.
It would be a 10th amendment matter.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Apr, 2009 04:56 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

I am agreeing with you.
However, congress cannot force a state to accept any federal money for its roads (to use your example).
If a state decides not to accept federal money, then that state is free to spend its money any way it chooses, without govt interference.
It would be a 10th amendment matter.


Do you know what that scumbag Perry and his cronies in TX did?

They took the school budget, and spent 2 billion of it on other items, b/c they knew the stimulus monies were coming in. They basically robbed the kids so that they could reward their political allies with spending in their areas. It's a ******* crime and they ought to be strung up for it; but b/c the Republicans run the entire TX government, they won't be.

This is what you are defending - someone who is willing to use dirty accounting tricks to steal money meant to help kids in their state (and TX has one of the worst education experiences for kids in public schools) in order to further themselves, and then turn around and bitch about the process that allowed them to do it.

Please research this moron before defending him. He's no good.

Cycloptichorn
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Apr, 2009 05:03 pm
@mysteryman,
The problem is not the federal money going to the states but rather the federal money going to the federal government from the states. If the Federal Government wasn't regularly sucking Texas dry, then Perry indeed would be a hypocrite for applying for FEMA etc. monies. But Texas almost certainly contributed far more of those monies than they are now requesting. If the Federzal Government limited itself to its Constitutionally mandated responsibilities, there would be no FEMA monies to apply for except perhaps as a loan to cover unexpected disaster costs.

As the Federal Government becomes bigger and bigger sucking in more and more taxes from everywhere it can get them, it also becomes more and more oppressive, and the bureaucracy swallows up more and more just to maintain itself.

Texas especially gets the short end of the stick re mandatory highway funds for instance:

Quote:
Under allocation formulas embodied in the current law, Mississippi, the poorest state in the Union, pays more than it gets back, while Connecticut, the richest state, gets back more than it pays. Moreover, fast-growing states tend to do worse than slow-growing states under the current formula. Fast-growing states like California, Florida, Texas, Georgia, North Carolina, and South Carolina are long-standing donors--year after year shipping a portion of their fuel tax revenues to perennial recipient states like New York, Massachusetts, and Pennsylvania.3

For example, Texas does exceptionally poorly under the federal highway program. In 2001, its motorists accounted for 8.65 percent of the revenue paid into the Highway Trust Fund but received only 6.93 percent of the money paid out of the fund. If Texas had been entitled to a return share equal to its contribution to the trust fund, it would have received an additional $585 million in federal transportation money in 2001.4

Another major problem with the existing federal program is the mandated diversion of as much as 40 percent of federal fuel tax revenues to non-general purpose highway projects that benefit small but influential fractions of the population, including the billions of dollars wasted on the thousands of questionable pork-barrel projects that Members of Congress inserted into the legislation. The largest diversion of all is the federal transit program that shifts a disproportionate share of the federal transportation money (20 percent) from roads to transit systems that carry only a small portion (1.8 percent) of the traveling public
http://www.heritage.org/research/smartgrowth/bg1709.cfm
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Wed 15 Apr, 2009 05:20 pm
@Foxfyre,
Texas gets back .97 cents on the dollar for every Federal tax dollar they spend.

http://www.nemw.org/taxburd.htm

This actually makes them one of the most-contributing of the 'red' states. Most, such as your native New Mexico, get back more than they put in by a good amount; because blue states like ours subsidize your lives.

Should we demand our money back from you?

The Heritage piece complains about 'federal transit systems,' ie., public transit... no surprise there.

Cycloptichorn
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Apr, 2009 05:34 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Which puts Texas about 41st or 42nd down on the list for getting a return on their money while it is pretty high up among the states who send the most per capita to Washington. Plus the money coming back that does not fund federal installations has a lot of strings attached to it.

New Mexico with a relatively small population does indeed receive more back per capita than it sends in, but most of that money coming back is going to the national labs and other federal installation, White Sands Missile Proving Range, three large military bases and some smaller military installations.

How much difference would it make to the local citizen if the $6000+ per capita that now goes to the Federal government could be reduced by several thousand dollars? Perhaps New Mexico would finally be able to clean up its act, the people could throw off the government foot on their necks, and we wouldn't be at or near the bottom of just about every negative quality of life indicator.

I would take that chance.
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Apr, 2009 05:38 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
Please research this moron before defending him. He's no good.


I am not defending him or his policies.
I am defending his stance regarding the 10th amendment, nothing more.
Debra Law
 
  2  
Reply Wed 15 Apr, 2009 05:47 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
Perhaps New Mexico would finally be able to clean up its act, the people could throw off the government foot on their necks, and we wouldn't be at or near the bottom of just about every negative quality of life indicator.

I would take that chance.


The People of New Mexico fought for over a half of a century to become a state. If they are so unhappy with statehood, why did they fight so hard to acquire it? Despite the federal government pumping federal money into the state at a rate of more than 2 times what it collects in taxes, Foxfyre proclaims that the federal government is the cause of a negative quality of life for the people of New Mexico. Is she suggesting that New Mexico would be far better off without federal money or statehood? Other than being derogatory and oppositional to the federal government, what's her point?
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Apr, 2009 05:51 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

Quote:
Please research this moron before defending him. He's no good.


I am not defending him or his policies.
I am defending his stance regarding the 10th amendment, nothing more.




NO, you aren't defending his stance. You rejected it. Read the posting again:


Quote:
WAKE UP CALL: TEXAS GOV. BACK RESOLUTION AFFIRMING SOVEREIGNTY
Tue Apr 14 2009 08:44:54 ET

AUSTIN " Gov. Rick Perry joined state Rep. Brandon Creighton and sponsors of House Concurrent Resolution (HCR) 50 in support of states’ rights under the 10th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

“I believe that our federal government has become oppressive in its size, its intrusion into the lives of our citizens, and its interference with the affairs of our state,” Gov. Perry said. “That is why I am here today to express my unwavering support for efforts all across our country to reaffirm the states’ rights affirmed by the Tenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. I believe that returning to the letter and spirit of the U.S. Constitution and its essential 10th Amendment will free our state from undue regulations, and ultimately strengthen our Union.”

Perry continued: "Millions of Texans are tired of Washington, DC trying to come down here to tell us how to run Texas."

A number of recent federal proposals are not within the scope of the federal government’s constitutionally designated powers and impede the states’ right to govern themselves. HCR 50 affirms that Texas claims sovereignty under the 10th Amendment over all powers not otherwise granted to the federal government.

It also designates that all compulsory federal legislation that requires states to comply under threat of civil or criminal penalties, or that requires states to pass legislation or lose federal funding, be prohibited or repealed.


Perry's stance is that he should get federal money, no strings attached. Perry's stance is that all laws that place strings on federal money must be prohibited or repealed. You rejected this notion when you agreed that Congress may place strings on federal money.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Wed 15 Apr, 2009 05:55 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Which puts Texas about 41st or 42nd down on the list for getting a return on their money while it is pretty high up among the states who send the most per capita to Washington. Plus the money coming back that does not fund federal installations has a lot of strings attached to it.


Actually, there are 16 states which get a worse return on their dollar than TX, not 8 or 9 as you say here; and with the exception of perhaps Nevada, they are ALL blue states. It is entirely fair to say that we pay for you. And you have the temerity to bitch about it!

Quote:

New Mexico with a relatively small population does indeed receive more back per capita than it sends in, but most of that money coming back is going to the national labs and other federal installation, White Sands Missile Proving Range, three large military bases and some smaller military installations.


Sure are a hell of a lot of jobs created with that money. I'm sure the people who rely upon those jobs would love to see that you are so cavalier with their lives.

Quote:
How much difference would it make to the local citizen if the $6000+ per capita that now goes to the Federal government could be reduced by several thousand dollars? Perhaps New Mexico would finally be able to clean up its act, the people could throw off the government foot on their necks, and we wouldn't be at or near the bottom of just about every negative quality of life indicator.

I would take that chance.


Actually, the per-capita tax burden on that graph is just over 5k, not 6k. But that's still a steal. Every single Blue state in America has a higher per-cap burden than that and somehow we manage not to be at the bottom of the qual of life indicators.

Perhaps the problem is not the Federal government, but incompetent management by your local and State governments.

Please also realize that removing that money paid to the Feds means no Social Security, no defense against invasion, no unemployment, no road monies, no FEMA help in case of disasters, nothing. You'd be on your own. My guess is you wouldn't last two years before crawling back, asking for help.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Apr, 2009 06:18 pm
http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/4-13-09crawfordRGB20090413073319.jpg
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Apr, 2009 06:20 pm
@Debra Law,
You either misunderstood me or I wasnt clear, so let me try again.

I 100% agree that the feredal govt has every right to put strings on any money a state gets from them.

BUT,I do NOT agree that the state should be forced to take that money, or that they should be punished for not taking it.

Quote:
It also designates that all compulsory federal legislation that requires states to comply under threat of civil or criminal penalties, or that requires states to pass legislation or lose federal funding, be prohibited or repealed.


I 100% agree with this.
The federal govt should NOT be able to threaten a state in any way.
If the feds want to force a state to do something (or not do something), that is a violation of the 10th amendment.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Apr, 2009 06:28 pm
@mysteryman,
What about Bush's No Child Left Behind? That's a federal mandate.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Apr, 2009 06:40 pm
No child left behind was not a mandate. NCLB was a federal bribe--you have to do it in order to get federal money. Refuse the federal money, you don't have to do NCLB. But the states have to send their money to Washington regardless, and it is really tough to have the courage to refuse getting your share back of that.

If the Federal government had stuck to its Constitutional responsibilities and never started meddling in state education, NCLB would never have been more than a slogan and there would have been no mandates at all. And I'm guessing the kids would be getting a far sight better education than they are getting now.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Apr, 2009 06:44 pm
@Foxfyre,
You are a joke. No NCLB, no federal funds. Do you have any common sense left in your brain? That's not a federal mandate?
0 Replies
 
 

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