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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2008 02:18 am
Foxfyre wrote:

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/Olympic_Torch_coLOR-.jpg




http://i32.tinypic.com/293aijk.jpg
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Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2008 07:48 pm
No previous American president has attended an Olympic Games on foreign soil.
What is foreign according to Bush's English?
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 07:10 am
From a UPI piece today
Quote:
Both Obama's Democratic rival, Hillary Clinton, and John McCain, the likely Republican nominee, have attacked Obama for saying it is not surprising that some people "get bitter, they cling to their guns or religion or antipathy to people who are not like them."

LINK

Obama supporters are working as hard to distance Obama from this statement as they have worked to distance him from Jeremiah Wright, but that is probably best discussed on the Obama threads.

I see in this a much larger issue, however, which I think conservatives should a least consider. Accepting that most liberals think conservatives are naturally 'bitter', I would like to hear from conservatives on this:

What do you conservatives think? Do you go to church or synagogue or temple or pray or keep a gun because you're 'bitter'? Do you attribute antipathy to people who aren't like you to 'bitterness'? For that matter what sort of people generate antipathy in you? (I'm guessing it is different people than Obama had in mind when he made that statement. Smile)

And finally, how 'bitter' are you?
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 07:27 am
Quote:
And finally, how 'bitter' are you?


And finally, how predictable are your posts? Whatever contemporary wingnut talking point arises, you'll plop it in here. So, here's another of like sort...

Quote:
John McCain's temper is well documented. He's called opponents and colleagues "shitheads," "assholes" and in at least one case "a ffucking jerk."...

Three reporters from Arizona, on the condition of anonymity, also let me in on another incident involving McCain's intemperateness. In his 1992 Senate bid, McCain was joined on the campaign trail by his wife, Cindy, as well as campaign aide Doug Cole and consultant Wes Gullett. At one point, Cindy playfully twirled McCain's hair and said, "You're getting a little thin up there." McCain's face reddened, and he responded, "At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you kunt." McCain's excuse was that it had been a long day. If elected president of the United States, McCain would have many long days.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/04/07/report-mccains-profane-ti_n_95429.html
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 07:33 am
Note to a friend I invited to this forum today and to this thread specifically: Please don't judge the members and quality of posts on A2K by the perspective of the immediately preceding member who has an especially difficult time staying on topic anywhere.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 07:41 am
Note to foxfire's friend...re "on topic", perhaps fox will clarify for you how how her post (the one I just referenced above) matches the topic of this particular thread.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 07:45 am
Rolling Eyes

(The poor thing is even incapable of reading a thread title.)
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 07:50 am
You certainly fitted Foxy's description Bernie when your burning eagerness over the call-girl spanking incident caused you to troll the ID thread.

And you still haven't answered the questions about who was doing the spanking and what with which your troller begged so obviously.
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Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 09:22 am
Personally, I rarely feel "bitter" about anything. On the whole, my feelings about the nation, its people and its prospects are "optimistic". I "deplore" the shenanigans of radicals of all sorts, and I "distrust" idealism... especially when taken to extremes.

I "value" patriotism, honor, civility, courage, and above all the U.S. Constitution. The traditions of "The Enlightenment" in Western Civilization are, too me, a just and equitable world. the most fundamental change isn't easily legislated, but must occur within each person individually. Individuals, not society as a whole, are the real bedrock of liberty and self-realization. Interest drives change, and we should keep a very close eye on anyone who claims to be completely altruistic and without interest when proposing change. People are flawed, and only a strong central government can harness and orchestrate the raw power of The People. Within constraint, liberty is maximized, while without constraints there is chaos and the self-interests of a few tyrannize the many. Politics is ultimately a balance between the conflicting needs and interests of society and the individual. As a general rule, if the scales go out of balance let it be in favor of the individual.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 09:29 am
asherman wrote:
Personally, I rarely feel "bitter" about anything.
Yeah right, unless they have the word liberal or democrat following their name, what a freakin' liar.
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InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 11:13 am
Asherman wrote:
I "distrust" idealism... especially when taken to extremes.


You mean like the idealism underlying the policy of invasive and occupational war as a means to effect regime change, allay one's own paranoia, and generally better the world for the benefit of one's nation and others?
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JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 11:53 am
Asherman wrote:
Personally, I rarely feel "bitter" about anything. On the whole, my feelings about the nation, its people and its prospects are "optimistic". I "deplore" the shenanigans of radicals of all sorts, and I "distrust" idealism... especially when taken to extremes.

Go on, go on, Asherman, explain how you deplore the actions taken by the radicals in the current administration.

I "value" patriotism, honor, civility, courage, and above all the U.S. Constitution. The traditions of "The Enlightenment" in Western Civilization are, too me, a just and equitable world. the most fundamental change isn't easily legislated, but must occur within each person individually. Individuals, not society as a whole, are the real bedrock of liberty and self-realization. ...



People are flawed, and only a strong central government can harness and orchestrate the raw power of The People. Within constraint, liberty is maximized, while without constraints there is chaos and the self-interests of a few tyrannize the many. Politics is ultimately a balance between the conflicting needs and interests of society and the individual. As a general rule, if the scales go out of balance let it be in favor of the individual.


Go on, go on, Asherman, explain how the scales are, at this point in history, in perfect balance, how things are just moving along swimmingly, how your last general rule is seeing such unwavering support.

Then tell me just what it is that you're on or off, as the case may be.
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Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 11:59 am
No, I don't regard it extreme idealism to "generally better the world for the benefit of" ourselves and others. That isn't idealism so much as it is working to advance the our own self-interest, while improving the lot of others.

It is not paranoia to acknowledge and respond vigorously to to the war imposed on us by the Radical Islamic Movement. That enemy of civilization has been attacking the West, with greatest focus upon the United States for almost twenty years. Only when Al Queda's coordinated attacks within CONUS were successful in murdering thousands of innocent civilians was this nation moved to go on a war-footing. Previous responses had clearly failed, as the tempo and intensity of terrorist attacks increased steadily through the end of the 20th century. Prior to 9/11 the United States was exceptionally vulnerable, largely because we so value non-interference of government into the private affairs of individual citizens.

It wasn't idealism, much less extreme idealism, that prompted U.S. military action in the Middle East, specifically Afghanistan and Iraq. That region is the source and center of the Radical Islamic Movement. Afghanistan was only the most openly supportive of the Radical Islamic organization we know as Al Queda. That movement exists, in one form or another in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Yemen, Pakistan, Eygpt, and in 2003, Iraq. Iraq was in violation of numerous Cease Fire conditions, led the world to believe that they had, or were pursuing WMD denied them under the Cease Fire conditions, and was openly supporting terrorists. The regime was one of the world's most brutal and was known for its use of chemical agents against civilians. Any long term solution to the regional instabilities associated with Radical Islam had to include an Iraq free of Saddam. Resolving the Iraqi problem was a practical consideration as much as it was idealistic.

What I mean by extreme idealism is quite different. Extreme idealism begins and ends with the notion that a single idea holds the key to resolving all of Mankind's problems. Whether that idealism springs from a Marxist notion of perpetual economic class warfare and a dictatorship of the proletariat, or a Theological dictatorship of any sort, extreme ideology argues against individualism and diversity. Idealistic dedication to the notion of individual liberty and the pursuit of one's own happiness and well-being only becomes a problem when one group's rights transcend the rights of others.

It is extreme idealism to suppose that human imperfections can somehow magically be erased by the adoption of some "ideal" system. We can dream of a world without imperfections, but expect that to occur anytime in the next ten centuries is "extreme". Even if we as a species were somehow to completely banish war, poverty, illness, chauvinism and prejudice it remains uncertain if that wouldn't be as "bad" as the human imperfections we've lived with since before recorded history. We visualize a world with LESS want, LESS violence, and LESS injustice.

So far in my opinion, no system of government so practically deals with imperfectability of humans as does the United States Consitution. No system of economic or politics is better suited to promoting diversity and individual liberty than that which has evolved in the United States since 1787. The zealous separation of Church and State in our country has served us well, and is one of the fundamental reasons that Radical Islam is so determined to destroy us.
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JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 12:10 pm
It's nice to see that you've discovered the paragraph. It's easier to read tripe when it's separated into paragraphs.
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Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 12:15 pm
If you're talking to me, then you haven't read much of my writing. I don't post nearly so often as most here, but I am guilty of lengthy responses. On the other hand, what you get from me is strictly my own opinion and not the cut and paste jobs of some yahoo commentator from either extreme. If you want to see/read/listen to those folk's opinions, I expect you can find them without my help. I try to stay reasonably current, but certainly don't make a fetish of it. Most of my comments are drawn from the fundamentals I've come to believe in over my life.
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 12:30 pm
Ash, it's been my experience that responding to JTT is a completely worthless experience. He's a troll, nothing more, nothing less.
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JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 12:40 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
Ash, it's been my experience that responding to JTT is a completely frustrating experience given my mendacious nature.


Smile
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 01:29 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
... .


Say Tico, why do you figure that there's been virtually nothing in the US press about a president admitting to being a war criminal? It's been a couple of days now since this came out.

I'll bet it's that damn liberal press, eh? What do you think? Ya think that Drudge has broken this?
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 03:05 pm
On Soz's little politics blog thread, I excerpted at length a portrait of Tom Cole, the chairman of the National Republican Congressional Committee (NRCC), in the NYT Magazine. Long, in-depth article, very much worth the read.

A bunch of the excerpts were more about the Democrats than about the Republicans, but there's still plenty of choice observations about the Republican party, the conservative movement, and the choices they face when seeking an electoral future. The following ones seem a propos for this thread. It's a lot - but it's still just half of the actual article :wink:

Cole compares the Democrats' win in 2006 with the Republican revolution of 1994:

Quote:


In light of all this, Cole shows himself a realist. While the conservative movement's hardcore partisans insist that if the Republicans lost, it was only because they werent conservative enough, Cole takes another view:

Quote:

Yet Cole has been almost strangely sunny about his prospects. "This isn't an ideologically conservative country, and maybe some of us overreached in thinking that it was, and have been corrected for that," he told me in January. "But I believe that it is still a center-right country, and I think this election will show that."


The demographic detail of the 2006 results suggest that the political map as we have known it, the last 25 years, may be shifting, and not just the division between blue states and red states. The Reagan Democrats are about ready to return. Working class evangelicals are ready to vote Democratic. Underlying it all: the return of economics as battle ground:

Quote:


while the notion that the political map is shifting to the Democrats is widely accepted, there are differing perspectives on which parts are main the focus. Above, the article referred to the "working-class, conservative towns around Evansville and Terre Haute" won by Ellsworth in Indiana. But the Democratic consultant Mark Gersh sees different vistas:

Quote:
For Gersh, the modern political map has sustained two basic changes in the past 30 years. The first, beginning with Ronald Reagan's election in 1980 but only culminating with the 1994 election of Newt Gingrich's insurgents, was the slow, top-down conversion of socially conservative blue-collar voters, in the South and elsewhere, from Democratic partisans to Republican ones. In 2006, Gersh saw the culmination of the second big shift. "The biggest thing that happened in 2006 was the final movement of upper-income, well-educated, largely suburban voters to the Democrats, which started in 1992," he says. The largest concentrations of districts that flipped were in the suburbs and the Northeast. This, Gersh says, was the equal and opposite reaction to the earlier movement toward the Republicans and to some degree a product of the social conservatism demanded by the Republican majority. When I spoke to Emanuel earlier this month, he told me: "I believe there's a suburban populism now. The Republican Party has abandoned any economic, cultural or social connection to those districts."


The Republicans, in any case, are worried:

Quote:


Again, in Cole's view, the explanation is clear. And it's not that the Republicans have just not been conservative enough:

Quote:
For operatives like Cole, focused on expanding the party's appeal, the conservative movement had become too demanding: its aggressive rhetoric on some social issues alienated young voters, its swagger on immigration hardened Hispanic voters against Republicans and its emphasis on tax cuts for the wealthy made it difficult for the party to appeal to populist voters. [..] "If there are Republicans out there who think that 2006 was a year that could be changed by a few votes in a few districts, they need to wake up," Mehlman told me. "It was a rejection."


In this context, Bush and Cheney are definitely more liabilities than assets:

Quote:


The only chance Cole has, therefore, is to capitalise on McCain's 'maverick appeal'. To make that work, he notes, he doesnt even need McCain to win; he just needs to come close:

Quote:
Cole says that his task is to help the Republicans move from something that looks roughly like Bush's party to something that looks mostly like John McCain's. The places where Cole must hold the Republican line are largely moderate districts, where the president's conservatism is a divisive thing and where McCain's maverick reputation might permit the party to pull the trick of running against Washington even while controlling the White House. "I don't need the nominee to win; I just need him to be competitive enough that we can win behind him in the places that should be ours," Cole said. "I need him to be Gerald Ford."


Cole also draws some comfort from the ways in which McCain, in turn, could also open up the map:

Quote:


To make all that happen, he needs to push the perception of the Republican Party away from where it is now: from the party of Washington to the outsiders' party, and from the ideological, conservative party to a moderate, pragmatic one:

Quote:


But in many ways, the creation of a more moderate party for the post-Bush era will have to be a reinvention from scratch:

Quote:


It's pretty amazing, isn't it, to see a Republican top honcho from so high in the apparatus lay out in no uncertain words how the Republicans have just radicalised themselves out of the cultural mainstream? The words in which he scorns the influence of the hardcore conservatives are pretty commonplace in the average Blatham copy/paste, but from the head of the NRCC?

Skipping ahead a bunch of paragraphs, Cole is openly dismissive of the conservative operatives who believe that it's just stuff like earmarks that did the Republican Party in, in 2006; that if only the party had remained true to its small government ideology, all would have been well:

Quote:
at a moment when Boehner was trying to rebuild the party's reputation on small-government principles (Boehner told me that the matter of the Republican abuse of earmarks, in which congressmen secure funds for favored projects in their districts, is "the most poignant" reason voters rejected Republicans), Cole was openly skeptical of this approach. "Earmarks are not the reason that we lost the election," Cole told me. "I can't find a single seat we lost because of them."


And skipping on a bit more still, check out what Cole has to say about the Club for Growth!

Quote:


Stupid and inept, there you go.

Skipping back in the article, more illustrations of the purely pragmatic approach Cole is taking - focused on the politically moderate, but also on pure calculus:

Quote:
Cole's staff didn't know all that much about Greenberg ideologically, but then they don't make it their business to know. I once asked Cole about the positions his candidates were taking on immigration and the war. "I don't think I've ever asked a candidate what he believes," he said. "We're just looking for winning candidates." But one of the things they did know, and do make it their business to know, was geography. Greenberg was from one of the towns that tended to flip back and forth, the wealthy suburb of Long Grove. If he could simply prevail upon his neighbors to vote for him, Greenberg would have gone a long way toward winning back the seat. "There's a head start already," Morgan Sr. said.


Cole himself is from Oklahoma, and from the rougher end of the state. This was once the heart of FDR's New Deal country; and of course, subsequently became the epitome of the Republican push-back, which eventually landed it as one of the very reddest states of the country. But it's not necessarily a welcoming place for your hardcore conservative, anti-government ideology:

Quote:
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 03:25 pm
Re: AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND
In the original post of this thread,

Foxfyre wrote:
It is a given that most American liberals didn't like President Bush to begin with and didn't vote for Republicans for Congress either. Therefore, it can be concluded that the GOP lost power when it violated those issues most important to their base generally imbedded in an ideology known as modern Conservatism.

What is striking to me is the absolute us/them, black/white thinking involved in this analysis: if you're not with us, you're against us. Liberals wouldnt vote for us anyhow, so the only reason we are losing now must be because we're not properly catering for conservatives.

Striking by their absence in this view: moderates. They make up some 40% of the voting population. They are neither liberal nor conservative. Many of them thought Kerry too liberal; and a strong case could hypothetically be made that Obama is really too liberal for them too. But of course, in order to make it, one's own side in turn shouldnt be too conservative for moderate tastes.

The Republican Party is not losing elections primarily because of disappointed true conservatives. They might not be as passionate as they were in 2000 anymore, but by and large they will still come out and vote, especially is the opponent is liberal enough. The Republican Party is losing elections because of disappointed moderates. Those are the ones who are not just less energised than normally, but are outright defecting to the other side.

The idea that it's just liberals who think the republican party is too conservative, and since they wont ever vote red anyhow, the only thing that'll really help is too better cater for the real conservative tastes, misses the point that in the US landscape, conservatives (much like liberals) dont have a majority behind them in the public opinion. There's too many moderates between 'em.

Between Democratic and Republican partisans, there is an ever increasing number of Independent voters, who now outnumber either party's supporters. And just like they may be turned off by what they see as Democratic candidates' love for big government and weakness on national security, so they are turned off by the neoconservative wars and religious conservative zeal in the Republican party. Steering even more true to the conservative line wont win you back those votes.

It's like NRCC chairman Cole is said to describe it in the above article: the conservative movement's "aggressive rhetoric on some social issues alienated young voters, its swagger on immigration hardened Hispanic voters against Republicans and its emphasis on tax cuts for the wealthy made it difficult for the party to appeal to populist voters". Or like the former R.N.C. chairman Ken Mehlman is quoted in the same article: "What is concerning is that we lost ground in every one of the highest-growth demographics."

Look again at how it counts the ways: "Republicans had traditionally won the votes of independents; in 2006, they lost them by 18 percent. Hispanic voters, who gave the Democrats less than 60 percent of their votes in 2004, cast more than 70 percent of their votes for Democrats in 2006. Suburban voters, long a Republican constituency, favored Democrats in 2006 for the first time since 1992. And Democrats won their largest share of voters under 30 in the modern era [..]".

Steering an even closer, narrower conservative line will not win you back Independents, Hispanics, suburban voters and the youth vote. But of course, I encourage the Republicans to try to do so anyway. Twisted Evil
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