55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
JamesMorrison
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 11:04 am
There may be no guillotines (yet) but these are certainly times that try American souls. When I see people that essentially say they feel the government is smarter than themselves and therefore have no problem giving not only all their money but also surrendering all their rights to an entity that has given us Watergate, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, U.S.P.S., Amtrak, The Great Society, CRA... I am puzzelled (What do these people do for a living are they government employees themselves? Is that where the belief of super human intelligence comes from? If not then why do they refuse decision making RE our money to the rest of us?). Sure, they will argue that they don't want to give "all" their money or "all" their power (constitutional rights), but doesn't that beg a further question whose answer lies only in MACean principles? At what point on this slippery slope will they put their speed bumps or place border gates? Indeed, when is enough, enough? They rail how the military/industrial complex ,or CIA, or Vice President Cheney steals their right to this or that but then say it's OK for Congress to tax 90% of, say, 100 or 200 individuals only, monies they received for specific services during a specific period of time. This after Congress specifically agreeing, thru their proxy the Sec of the Treasury, that those monies would not be taxed. The outrage should not be directed at entities engaged in legal contracts but, again, at governmental employees who failed in their due diligence before the deal was signed. Could it be the Executive and Congressional outrage is a smokescreen to cover up another governmental boondoggle? Who next will suffer the torches, pitchfork, and rage of the townspeople? Will it be well paid slightly overweight conservative talk show hosts? Will they leave the poor ones alone? What if that type and his possibly radical party controlling the next Legislative/Executive part of the government are wont to turn the IRS loose on unsuccessful talk show hosts like Al Franken? Will his only recourse be the Constitutional wisdom of Atonin Scalia, Robert Alito, and John Roberts?

It is times like these I feel Friedrich Gustav Emil Martin Niemöller's lament:

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

Communists, Socialist...same thing as far as I'm concerned, both, in practice, want to achieve the subjugation of the individual for the promised EUtopia of cradle to grave protection from both noxious stimuli and prosperity/higher living standards. Both neglect and discourage individual achievement by seeking the averaging affect of "leveling playing fields". They are the T-ball to capitalism's Baseball.

But wait, I stand corrected! Communists are different then Socialists...they are honest about the methods they will use to accomplish their goals. Any.

For those who want more rather than less government in American life the following is from The Washington Post:


Quote:
Thank God America Isn't Like Europe -- Yet

By Charles Murray
Sunday, March 22, 2009; B02



Do we want the United States to be like Europe?

The European model has worked in many ways. I am delighted whenever I get a chance to go to Stockholm or Amsterdam, not to mention Rome or Paris. There's a lot to like -- a lot to love -- about day-to-day life in Europe. But I argue that the answer to this question is "no." Not for economic reasons. I want to focus on another problem with the European model: namely, that it drains too much of the life from life.

The stuff of life -- the elemental events surrounding birth, death, raising children, fulfilling one's personal potential, dealing with adversity, intimate relationships -- occurs within just four institutions: family, community, vocation and faith. Seen in this light, the goal of social policy is to ensure that those institutions are robust and vital. The European model doesn't do that. It enfeebles every single one of them.

Drive through rural Sweden, as I did a few years ago. In every town was a beautiful Lutheran church, freshly painted, on meticulously tended grounds, all subsidized by the Swedish government. And the churches are empty. Including on Sundays. The nations of Scandinavia and Western Europe pride themselves on their "child-friendly" policies, providing generous child allowances, free day-care centers and long maternity leaves. Those same countries have fertility rates far below replacement and plunging marriage rates. They are countries where jobs are most carefully protected by government regulation and mandated benefits are most lavish. And with only a few exceptions, they are countries where work is most often seen as a necessary evil, and where the proportions of people who say they love their jobs are the lowest.

Call it the Europe Syndrome. Last April I had occasion to speak in Zurich, where I made some of these same points. Afterward, a few of the 20-something members of the audience came up and said plainly that the phrase "a life well-lived" did not have meaning for them. They were having a great time with their current sex partner and new BMW and the vacation home in Majorca, and they saw no voids in their lives that needed filling.

It was fascinating to hear it said to my face, but not surprising. It conformed to both journalistic and scholarly accounts of a spreading European mentality that goes something like this: Human beings are a collection of chemicals that activate and, after a period of time, deactivate. The purpose of life is to while away the intervening time as pleasantly as possible.

If that's the purpose of life, then work is not a vocation, but something that interferes with the higher good of leisure. If that's the purpose of life, why have a child, when children are so much trouble? If that's the purpose of life, why spend it worrying about neighbors? If that's the purpose of life, what could possibly be the attraction of a religion that says otherwise?

I stand in awe of Europe's past. Which makes Europe's present all the more dispiriting. And should make it something that concentrates our minds wonderfully, for every element of the Europe Syndrome is infiltrating American life as well. The European model provides the intellectual framework for the social policies of the Democratic Party, and it faces no credible opposition from Republican politicians.

Yet not only is the European model inimical to human flourishing, I predict that 21st-century science is going to explain why. A tidal change in our scientific understanding of what makes humans tick is coming, and it will spill over into every crevice of political and cultural life. As Harvard's Edward O. Wilson argues in his book "Consilience," the social sciences are increasingly going to be shaped by the findings of science. It's already happening. Whether it's psychologists discovering how fetal testosterone affects sex differences in children's behavior or geneticists using haplotypes to differentiate the Dutch from the Italians, the hard sciences are encroaching on questions of race, class and gender that have been at the center of modern social science. And the tendency of the findings lets us predict with some confidence the broad outlines of what the future will bring.

Two premises about human beings are at the heart of the social democratic agenda: what I label "the equality premise" and "the New Man premise." The equality premise says that, in a fair society, different groups of people -- men and women, blacks and whites, straights and gays -- will naturally have the same distributions of outcomes in life -- the same mean income, the same mean educational attainment, the same proportions who become janitors and who become CEOs. When that doesn't happen, it is because of bad human behavior and an unfair society. Much of the Democratic Party's proposed domestic legislation assumes that this is true.

I'm confident that within a decade, the weight of the new scientific findings will force the left to abandon the equality premise. But if social policy cannot be built on the premise that group differences must be eliminated, what can it be built upon? It can be built upon the premise that used to be part of the warp and woof of American idealism: People must be treated as individuals. The success of social policy is to be measured not by equality of outcomes for groups, but by the freedom of individuals, acting upon their personal abilities, aspirations and values, to seek the kind of life that best suits them.

The second tendency of the new findings of biology will be to show that the New Man premise -- which says that human beings are malleable through the right government interventions -- is nonsense. Human nature tightly constrains what is politically or culturally possible. More than that, the new findings will confirm that human beings are pretty much the way that wise observers have thought for thousands of years.

The effects on the policy debate will be sweeping. Let me give you a specific example. For many years, I have been among those who argue that the growth in births to unmarried women has been a social catastrophe -- the single most important force behind the growth of the underclass. But while other scholars and I have been able to prove that other family structures have not worked as well as the traditional family, I cannot prove that alternatives could not work as well, and so the social democrats keep coming up with the next new program that will compensate for the absence of fathers.

Over the next few decades, advances in evolutionary psychology are going to be conjoined with advances in genetic understanding, and I predict that they will lead to a scientific consensus that goes something like this: There are genetic reasons why boys who grow up in neighborhoods without married fathers tend to reach adolescence unsocialized to norms of behavior that they will need to stay out of prison and hold jobs. We will still be able to acknowledge that many single women do a wonderful job of raising their children. But social democrats will have to acknowledge that the traditional family plays a special, indispensable role in human flourishing and that social policy must be based on that truth.

For some years a metaphor has been stuck in my mind: The 20th century was the adolescence of Homo sapiens. Nineteenth-century science, from Darwin to Freud, offered a series of body blows to ways of thinking about human life that had prevailed since the dawn of civilization. Humans, just like adolescents, were deprived of some of the comforting simplicities of childhood and exposed to more complex knowledge about the world. And 20th-century intellectuals reacted precisely the way adolescents react when they think they have discovered that Mom and Dad are hopelessly out of date. It was as if they thought that if Darwin was right about evolution, then Aquinas was no longer worth reading; that if Freud was right about the unconscious mind, then the Nicomachean Ethics had nothing to teach us.

The nice thing about adolescence is that it is temporary, and when it passes, people discover that their parents were smarter than they thought. I think that may be happening with the advent of the new century. All of us who deal in social policy will be thinking less like adolescents, entranced with the most titillating new idea, and more like grown-ups. But that will not stop America's slide toward the European model. For that, there must be a kind of political Great Awakening among America's elites. They will have to ask themselves how much they value what has made America exceptional, and what they are willing to do to preserve it.

The trouble is that American elites of all political stripes have increasingly withdrawn to gated communities -- literally or figuratively -- where they never interact at an intimate level with people not of their own socioeconomic class. Over the last half-century, the new generation of elites have increasingly spent their entire lives in the upper-middle-class bubble, never having seen a factory floor, let alone worked on one, never having gone to a grocery store and bought the cheap ketchup instead of the expensive ketchup to meet a budget, and never having had a close friend who hadn't gotten at least 600 on her verbal SAT.

America's elites must once again fall in love with what makes America different. The drift toward the European model can be stopped only when we are all talking again about why America is exceptional, and why it is so important that America remain exceptional. That requires once again seeing the American project for what it is: a different way for people to live together, unique among the nations of the earth, and immeasurably precious.

Charles Murray is the W. H. Brady Scholar at the American Enterprise Institute. This essay is adapted from his 2009 Irving Kristol Lecture.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/20/AR2009032001779_pf.html


JM
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 11:11 am
@Advocate,
That's an interesting study. There was a program produced by BBC about how men and women differ in their DNA, and how they react to different situations and abilities. I'm sure there is somewhat similar programmed influences of how we react to our environment and react to them politically.

During periods of my life, I have been registered a democrat and a republican, but changed late in my life to being an independent. What I have observed is that there are extremes in both parties that just does not fit well with my philosophy of life. My choices seem to always be in between the extremes, although I believe in universal health care which is deemed a liberal issue. Other than that major issue, I'm somewhere in the middle, and look for candidates that reflects my ideals.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 11:14 am
@JamesMorrison,
The scariest part of all of this is that so many seem now ready and willing to pledge allegiance and loyalty and place their complete trust in the great god of government. They are willing to hand over their lives, fortunes, health, potential, choices, and freedoms to a bunch of people who have demonstrated that they consistently put their own power, prosperity, and comfort ahead of anybody they represent.

They seem to forget that on down the road, that same government could be in the hands of .....GASP....Republicans! What will they say then?

I don't trust either the Democrats or Republicans with that kind of power which is why I hope enough of us who recognize the virtue in MACean principles will retain enough voice to be heard.

JamesMorrison
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 11:16 am
@A Lone Voice,
A (NOT SO) Lone Voice wrote:
Quote:
In CA, only 8% of the billions coming from the Obama 'stimulus' bill is going to be spent on infrastructure. Jobs and such.

The rest will cover the state's deficit in entitlement spending, this year. Next year the dems who run the state here ( and who have run it into the ground) plan on the economy recovering, I guess.


It is obvious that the present administration wants to increase socialism in government. Of further Note is SC governor Mark Sanford special request to just use the money to pay down the state's debt instead of increasing its future entitlement obligations. Sanford was refused this option by Obama himself.

JM
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 11:19 am
@JamesMorrison,
JM, What do you mean by "socialism in government?" What government does is to benefit the citizens as a whole. Are you confused with the term "socialism?"
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 11:22 am
@JamesMorrison,
JamesMorrison wrote:

A (NOT SO) Lone Voice wrote:
Quote:
In CA, only 8% of the billions coming from the Obama 'stimulus' bill is going to be spent on infrastructure. Jobs and such.

The rest will cover the state's deficit in entitlement spending, this year. Next year the dems who run the state here ( and who have run it into the ground) plan on the economy recovering, I guess.


It is obvious that the present administration wants to increase socialism in government. Of further Note is SC governor Mark Sanford special request to just use the money to pay down the state's debt instead of increasing its future entitlement obligations. Sanford was refused this option by Obama himself.

JM



We're not handing out money to balance SC's books; it was appropriate to refuse his request.

Your use of the word 'socialism' is no better than a slur, it is meaningless.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 11:23 am
The power to redistribute wealth is not granted by the Constitution to the federal government.

Therefore, it is a violation of the Constitution for the federal government to redistribute wealth.

Therefore, it is a violation of the "supreme law of the land" (Article VI) for the federal government to redistribute wealth.

Therefore, it is illegal for the federal government to redistribute wealth.

Therefore, it is a crime against the American people, whose wealth is being redistributed, for the federal government to redistribute wealth.

Therefore, it is robbery by the federal government for the federal government to redistribute wealth.

Taking money from people and organizations that lawfully earned that money, and giving it to people and organizations who have not earned that money, is robbery.

When a gang commits robbery, we call that gangsterism.

When one voluntarily gives money to those one believes will improve their lives as a result, that is charity.

When the federal government threatens one with fines and/or imprisonment to give it money that it then gives to those it says will improve their lives as a result, that is robbery.
Diest TKO
 
  2  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 11:29 am
@JamesMorrison,
JamesMorrison wrote:
Communists, Socialist...same thing as far as I'm concerned, both, in practice, want to achieve the subjugation of the individual for the promised EUtopia of cradle to grave protection from both noxious stimuli and prosperity/higher living standards. Both neglect and discourage individual achievement by seeking the averaging affect of "leveling playing fields". They are the T-ball to capitalism's Baseball.


You see, even if capitalism is baseball, the problem these days is that we have a teams that would rather play against the umpire instead of each other. It's synthetic capitalism. It's not based on competitive products, but rather controlling the game.

The funny thing about targeting communism and socialism is that those systems fail for the same reasons that conservatism fails: A over idealistic view of mankind. Certainly communism takes away the individuals incentive to strive for excellence, but in the capitalism we have these days we have the other side of that problem: We have rich CEOs that think that being rich entitles them to be rich and they have no incentive to strive for excellence either. The new game is to make short term profit and if the ship sinks, that's okay... as long as they got off first.

That is not the spirit of capitolism.

So after all your huff and puff about communism, socialism, conservatism, liberalism, and capitalism, you need to understand one thing: The USA will never be purely any of the above nor should it be.

The reality is that elements of all are a part of our society and even though you damn things like socialism, you can't deny how elements of socialism contribute to the success of our society.

Public Schools
VA Hospitals
Police
Firefighters
etc

It is dishonest to posture as if these things aren't a necessary part of our society or that by adopting some across the board conservative agenda will magically make everything right. It won't.

T
K
O
ican711nm
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 11:30 am
@ican711nm,
Quote:

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=socialism&x=25&y=9
Main Entry: so·cial·ism
...
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): -s
1 : any of various theories or social and political movements advocating or aiming at collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and control of the distribution of goods: as a : FOURIERISM b : GUILD SOCIALISM c : MARXISM d : OWENISM
2 a : a system or condition of society or group living in which there is no private property <trace the remains of pure socialism that marked the first phase of the Christian community -- W.E.H.Lecky> -- compare INDIVIDUALISM b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state -- compare CAPITALISM, LIBERALISM c : a stage of society that in Marxist theory is transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and payments to individuals according to their work


QED: Obama-crats are socialists.
Diest TKO
 
  2  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 11:34 am
@ican711nm,
So if parts of many ideologies appeal to someone, and one of those ideologies is socialism, they are a socialist?

By this line of logic, you're a fascist. You seem to want to squash any dissent in opinion. That's very appealing to you.

T
K
O
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 11:42 am
@JamesMorrison,
Murray is a moron.

http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/linker/archive/2009/03/22/charles-murray-s-miserable-happy-americans.aspx

Quote:

22.03.2009
Charles Murray's Miserable, Happy Americans


Charles Murray's recent Irving Kristol lecture at the American Enterprise Institute, titled "The Europe Syndrome and the Challenge to American Exceptionalism," has been extravagantly praised by conservatives. From these accounts, I figured that Murray had something new or interesting or thoughtful to say about the question of American exceptionalism or the problems confronting contemporary Europe.

But no. What Murray offers in his lecture is just a slight variation on good old-fashioned Donner Party Conservatism.

For those unfamiliar with the delightful appellation, coined by blogger John Holbo in 2003, it refers to the brand of conservative thinking that defends America's relatively minimal welfare state and anemic economic regulations on the grounds that it's good for people to have to struggle and suffer to get by -- just like those plucky, entrepreneurial pioneers who resorted to cannibalism to avoid starvation while trapped in the Sierra Nevada mountains back in the winter of 1846-1847. For some Donner Party Conservatives, struggle and suffering are good because they call forth and demand great acts of virtue, which serves to replenish the ever-diminishing stockpile of "moral capital" that our nation has inherited from its (pre-liberal) past. Murray himself argues this point at length. But he also claims that struggle and suffering are good because they are a necessary condition of human happiness.

And that sets up a familiar conservative dichotomy. On one side is Europe, filled with its cushy welfare states, where tame and timid hedonists treat life as a vacation, never contemplating, let alone striving to attain, greatness. They live, but they have no concept of what it means to "live well," meaning to live for the sake of something larger or higher than themselves -- something worth sacrificing for, like children, or dying for, like a noble cause. Hence their plummeting fertility rates and aversion to military conflict.

But that's not all. Because genuine happiness, for Murray, requires spending one's life striving to overcome an endless series of challenges and obstacles, the lavish European safety net ensures that individual Europeans will never experience spiritual contentment or satisfaction. The assumption seems to be that a life of leisure -- or at least a life with open access to health care, quality child care, generous unemployment insurance, and 4 - 6 weeks of guaranteed vacation time a year -- will be an unhappy one. (It doesn't sound half-bad to me, but I'm a Euro-loving liberal.)

Luckily, though, there is the American alternative (at least until Barack Obama gets through with us). Unlike coddled Europeans, Americans face the constant possibility of personal economic catastrophe. They work their lives away just to make ends meet, never knowing if they'll be rewarded for their efforts by being fired by their employer or impoverished by medical bills after a life-threatening illness. And that constant insecurity is what opens up the possibility of genuine happiness for them, because if they manage to survive, let alone thrive, they'll know that they did it on their own, without the help of the state, through heroic acts of self-reliance. This ideology -- equal parts Christian masochism, Emersonian individualism, and Nietzschean striving -- forms the core of American exceptionalism, according to Murray.

Even if we grant that there's some validity to Murray's core psychological assumption -- that human happiness is linked to the sense of self-worth that comes from overcoming obstacles -- Murray's arguments about the preconditions of happiness in Europe and America are riddled with holes.

Let's start with a few simple questions. Does it really make sense to assume that European welfare states so thoroughly insulate individuals from the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune that they no longer suffer or contend with difficulties in life? Don't individual Germans and Italians and Swedes still endure heartbreak and personal disappointments and defeats? Don't Danes and Frenchmen and Spaniards still struggle with disease and death? And if so, isn't happiness as possible for them as it is for Americans? (Come to think of it, shouldn't Americans be envious that European governments impose so many burdensome regulations on business, since those formidable obstacles to success must increase the likelihood that successful European entrepreneurs will get to enjoy happiness? But I digress. . . .)

On the other hand, isn't it likewise the case that plenty of Americans, very much including the W. H. Brady Scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, enjoy pleasant, leisured lives that are pretty thoroughly insulated from struggle and suffering, at least by the standards that have prevailed for most of human history? Judged by these standards, contemporary Europeans and Americans -- with their abundant food and clothing, iPods and air travel, MRIs and antibiotics -- differ hardly at all. If Europeans are unusually discontented, then it seems Americans should be, too -- at least in comparison with all those happy, struggling peasants of the pre-modern world.

But those are just the obvious objections to Murray's argument. The more fundamental ones follow from reflecting on the very real economic and cultural differences that distinguish Europe and America. The U.S., for example, has a lot more poor people than most European countries, and the American poor tend to be poorer than their European counterparts, while also lacking access to quality health care, child care, and other forms of social support. At the same time, the gap between the rich and poor in the United States is much greater than it is in Europe.

Libertarian-minded conservatives defend these troubling facts in a number of ways. The most doctrinaire say that the principle of individual freedom should be inviolable, regardless of the inegalitarian consequences. More pragmatic libertarians argue that America's comparatively freer market leads on average to higher rates of growth and lower rates unemployment than Europe, and that these are greater social goods than equality. And then there are those who claim that Americans as a whole benefit in innumerable ways from policies that encourage economic vitality and foster a culture of entrepreneurial creativity. All of these arguments are questionable. But at least they have the virtue of recognizing that economic and social policy involves trade-offs among competing goods.

By contrast, Donner Party Conservatives like Murray deny that any trade-offs are required -- and that's what makes their ideology so easy, so delusional, and so pernicious. Yes, they say, the American approach to economic and social policy makes life much harder for the poor, but far from being cruel, heartless, or selfish -- or an unfortunate consequence of protecting freedom, fostering growth, or encouraging economic vitality -- the added burden on the poor should actually be viewed as a benefit. After all, if quality health care and child care were more widely available, if public transportation were more reliable and affordable, if schools and other social services were more effective -- if, in a word, our society devoted a bit more of its vast resources to alleviating the struggles of the poor -- then we would be depriving them of the possibility of happiness. How thoughtful and generous of us not to alleviate their suffering!

And who are the most generous of all? Why the conservatives who believe we should spend even less on the poor than we already do! No wonder NRO's The Corner was buzzing with praise for Murray's lecture, which tells the right exactly what it most wants to hear: that doing nothing is the greatest charity of all.

Posted: Sunday, March 22, 2009 9:57 PM with 2 comment(s)


Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
JamesMorrison
 
  2  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 11:45 am
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote
Quote:
:"I now understand why conservatives always come down on the wrong side of every issue. They were born that way."


Interesting, but as I have noted before I myself was born and raised a Democrat. However, my professional education steeped in the hard sciences, mathematics, and real world experiences awarded me the gift of skeptisim. This a skepticism that rejects theories that don't work when viewed honestly and objectively, if the data doesn't fit you must quit. Correct and unbiased data are absolutely essential for correct conclusions and subsequent successful problem resolution. Given all the above I feel MACeans (not Republicans) have got it right Re a strong and properous America. Republicans are the only party that comes fairly close to those principles. After all it has been said that we live in a Jeffersonian like polity using a Hamiltonian economy.

JM
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 11:50 am
@Diest TKO,
Diest TKO wrote:
The reality is that elements of all are a part of our society and even though you damn things like socialism, you can't deny how elements of socialism contribute to the success of our society.

Public Schools
VA Hospitals
Police
Firefighters
etc

Public Schools: Support of public schools by the federal government is not Constitutional (see Article I. Section 8.). Public schools began a rapid decline in the quality of education they provide and a rapid increase in their cost, when the federal government began helping finance and regulate them.

VA Hospitals: These hospitals are Constitutional because they are for the benefit of those who were federal government employees that earned that benefit.

Police: Federal government support for those who are police employees of the federal government, is Constitutional.

Firefighters: Federal government support for those who are firefighter employees of the federal government, is Constitutional.

etc: It is not Constitutional for the federal government to support those who are not its employees providing a Constitutional government service.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 11:53 am
@ican711nm,
He didn't ask if they were Constitutional, but said they were Socialistic. You didn't deny this.

Cycloptichorn
JamesMorrison
 
  2  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 11:58 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote
Quote:
:"I don't trust either the Democrats or Republicans with that kind of power which is why I hope enough of us who recognize the virtue in MACean principles will retain enough voice to be heard."


I agree. I am down here in FL where there has been some "Tea Parties" who recognize and protest the Socialistic bent of the present government, it's heart warming really. Although Obama carried Florida it really is more MACean then liberal. Very law and order and many people come down here because cost of living is low, less regulation, just rejected an income tax, not exactly a union stronghold--just the opposite of the tri-state area up north (PA, NJ, DE).

JM
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 12:08 pm
@JamesMorrison,
Yes, I think Obama would never have carried Florida if George Bush had governed according to MACean principles - or - if Obama had campaigned on many of the ideas he is now pushing. He campaigned as a centrist. That was obviously a great misrepresentation.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 12:13 pm
@JamesMorrison,
JM, You speak of
Quote:
when viewed honestly and objectively
as if you have the ultimate knowledge to say what that is. You're sounding more like Foxie every day. Is that a MAC thing? LOL
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 12:13 pm
@Diest TKO,
Quote:

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=socialism&x=20&y=11
Main Entry: so·cial·ism
...
Function: noun
...
1 : any of various theories or social and political movements advocating or aiming at collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and control of the distribution of goods: as a : FOURIERISM b : GUILD SOCIALISM c : MARXISM d : OWENISM
2 a : a system or condition of society or group living in which there is no private property <trace the remains of pure socialism that marked the first phase of the Christian community -- W.E.H.Lecky> -- compare INDIVIDUALISM
b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state -- compare CAPITALISM, LIBERALISM c : a stage of society that in Marxist theory is transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and payments to individuals according to their work


So if parts of many ideologies that appeal to someone are also socialist ideologies, then each of those ideologies are socialist ideologies.

Quote:

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=fascism&x=24&y=9
Main Entry: fas·cism
...
Function: noun
...
1 often capitalized : the principles of the Fascisti; also : the movement or governmental regime embodying their principles
2 a : any program for setting up a centralized autocratic national regime with severely nationalistic policies, exercising regimentation of industry, commerce, and finance, rigid censorship, and forcible suppression of opposition b : any tendency toward or actual exercise of severe autocratic or dictatorial control (as over others within an organization) <the nascent fascism of a detective who is not content merely to do his duty -- George Nobbe> <early instances of army fascism and brutality -- J.W.Aldridge> <a kind of personal fascism, a dictatorship of the ego over the more generous elements of the soul -- Edmond Taylor>


Well how about that?

Obama-crats are socialists AND evolving fascists.

I am a constitutionalist!
Quote:

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=constitutionalism&x=22&y=8
Main Entry: con·sti·tu·tion·al·ism
...
Function: noun
...
1 : the doctrine or system of government in which the governing power is limited by enforceable rules of law and concentration of power is prevented by various checks and balances so that the basic rights of individuals and groups are protected
2 : adherence to the principles of constitutionalism

Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 12:18 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cooperative ventures agreed to by the people for their direct benefit is not socialism. Police and fire protection is not socialism. Such services are financed by citizens who vote the taxes and bond initiatives that support them and, at such time as it might be deemed appropriate due to declining population or whatever, can vote to discontinue funding. The citizens do this because it is more efficient, effective, and economical to train some citizens for these roles rather than have all citizens train themselves to function in these roles. The school are in the same category so long as they are operated and funded at the local level. Again the people vote to fund the schools via bonds and property taxes.

I do not see it as a constitutional prerogative of the Federal government to run or fund the schools or police departments or fire departments and think that would be a very dangerous concept to adopt. It is already violating intent of the Constitution for the Federal government to provide any funding for these things and thereby assume federal control over them.

There may be something, but I have yet to see anything be run more efficiently, effectively, or economically once the federal government becomes involved in it . At least anything that local governments and/or the private sector can do. This in addition to putting more of our individual freedoms at risk.
ican711nm
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 12:19 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Constitutionalism precludes socialism and fascism. So a system that strictly adheres to constitutionalism, cannot be socialist or fascist.
 

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