55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
okie
 
  0  
Reply Mon 16 Mar, 2009 10:46 am
@Diest TKO,
Diest TKO wrote:

To okie's defense we did shoot that satelite down last January.

To okie's demise, it took a very long time to plan, and a ICBM will at most take about 90 minutes from launch to boom. Not exactly enough time to hit the white board.

Okie, your faith in the missile shield is based on a mind with no proximity to the defense industry. I do believe that eventually well have a solution, but. Suspect that it will not be the technologies developed under Reagan.

If I'd wager a guess, a real missle shield will be based more on electronic countermeasures. But what the hell do I know...

T
K
O

To say it will not be technology developed under Reagan, how brilliant, as if the beginning technology is always the best technology, makes no argument against Reagan's SDI, but only supports it. Today's technology has sprung out of Reagan's original concepts, just as today's airplanes look very little like the Kitty Hawk, or like the drawings made by the Wright Brothers.

Common sense, people.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Mar, 2009 10:48 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

How hard is that to figure out?

Europe is for it because it means billions of US dollars being spent in their countries.

Russia is against it because it emboldens the Eastern European nations in their relations with Russia.

Simple stuff

Cycloptichorn


Simple only if there is any credibility to the missile defense system. If it is as ineffective, bogus, or non existent as some here seem to think, then Russia wouldn't care and European nations wouldn't be emboldened would they. (Not sure about your emboldenment theory though--unless you think Poland or other countries who want those anti-missile installations are planning to attack Russia.)
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Mar, 2009 10:52 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

How hard is that to figure out?

Europe is for it because it means billions of US dollars being spent in their countries.

Russia is against it because it emboldens the Eastern European nations in their relations with Russia.

Simple stuff

Cycloptichorn


Simple only if there is any credibility to the missile defense system. If it is as ineffective, bogus, or non existent as some here seem to think, then Russia wouldn't care and European nations wouldn't be emboldened would they. (Not sure about your emboldenment theory though--unless you think Poland or other countries who want those anti-missile installations are planning to attack Russia.)


Not attack Russia, but sit secure in the knowledge that the US has poured billions of dollars into investments in their countries which they won't just walk away from. It is the beginning of a strategic partnership with the countries right on Russia's border, the same sort of bullshit McCain went on about re: Georgia during the campaign. Russia fears this whether or not the ABM systems work.

Amazing to me how naive you guys can be when it comes to foreign policy, but then again, look how stupid your elected leaders have been on that topic lately.

Cycloptichorn
okie
 
  0  
Reply Mon 16 Mar, 2009 10:57 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

If the US missile defense system is so bogus, then why is Russia so upset about it? If there is no merit to it, why are European nations so eager to benefit from it?

Sorry to muddy up the thread with missile defense, but a few pages back, I cited this issue as one example of Reagan being right, yet there are those naysayers still around proclaiming it is worthless, it will never work, etc. Their dislike of Reagan is so severe as to muddy up whatever logical thinking ability they may have. When a test had never been done, they said that could not be done, when one test was done, they said it was a fluke under controlled conditions, and then when several have been done, they said only some of them worked, and now when actual deployment is being considered, they are saying it won't work under real conditions, with multiple missiles being shot, with detection avoidance being counter deployed, and so forth. One wonders how such people can believe in the far fetched computer modeling of global warming? How come their skepticism is aimed at much lesser scientific problems and complexities?

Yes, I would hope we never have to see if an actual attack can be thwarted, partially thwarted, or reduced in severity, but I believe something is better than nothing when it comes to potential nuclear attack.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Mar, 2009 11:05 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Well if we're so naive, you should be able to find something from a credible source to prove that, huh? Go for it.
ican711nm
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 16 Mar, 2009 11:05 am
The solution for how to save our Constitutional Republic is not to repeatedly sound alarms and repeatedly give the reasons for those alarms. The solution is to impeach President Obama. He is continually transferring wealth from those who lawfully earned it to those who have not earned it.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  2  
Reply Mon 16 Mar, 2009 11:13 am
@okie,
okie wrote:

joefromchicago wrote:

okie wrote:

So admit you were wrong, there have been many more than one successful test.

Wrong about what? You said "Star Wars" worked. It doesn't. Even you admit that they're still just testing it.

I admit nothing.

Finally, a point upon which we can agree.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Mar, 2009 11:14 am
@okie,
Actually it is a worthy topic for the thread since our Constitution mandates a federally managed national defense against enemies foreign and domestic. There is room to debate whether that includes us installing missile defense installations in other countries but I think most MACeans would likely approve well-thought-out pre-emptive efforts to prevent or avert war with other countries. Do you think the USA would stand still and passively permit say a militant Russia to annex Poland as we allowed Hitler to do that in WWII? And what would our response be if Iran lobbed a nuke into Israel or eastern or central Europe?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Mar, 2009 11:15 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Well if we're so naive, you should be able to find something from a credible source to prove that, huh? Go for it.


I am a credible source of logical argument, Fox. I need appeal to no other authority to point out your and other Republicans idiocy in foreign affairs.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  0  
Reply Mon 16 Mar, 2009 11:19 am
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:
Finally, a point upon which we can agree.

For a guy that wants me to believe Obama came out of Chicago politics clean as the wind driven snow, I am surprised you have such a hard time believing in missile defense systems having the potential of working. Be consistent in your skepticism, Joe.
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Mon 16 Mar, 2009 12:11 pm
@okie,
Does he think our President and Rod Blagojevich barely knew each other? That's the last spin I've seen--not here on A2K though. Smile
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Mar, 2009 12:35 pm
@Foxfyre,
Unless you have incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, why keep spreading this rumor?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Mon 16 Mar, 2009 12:38 pm
Why doesn't Modern American Conservatism appeal to minorities? The following is an except of one of the best analyses I've seen and touches on the mini debate Frank and I had on this awhile back where he was convinced that conservatism appeals to racists while I am convinced that any racism contained within conservatism is an illusion of taught perception.

Summary: It doesn't matter whether liberal policies and action produces any good. The perception of the stated liberal intention to do good is sufficient for liberals and minorities to condemn a conservatism that actually produces lasting good results and benefits:

The link to the whole essay is provided. I earnestly recommend the whole thing for those who want a good dose of the amazing mind of Shelby Steele:

http://aalbc.com/authors/images/shelby10.jpg
Shelby Steele


Quote:
. . . . (this) identity calls minorities to an anticonservative orientation to American politics. It makes for an almost ancestral resistance to conservatism. One's identity of grievance is flattered by the moral activism of the left and offended by the invisible hand of the right. Minorities feel they were saved from oppression by the left's activism, not by the right's discipline. The truth doesn't matter much here (in fact it took both activism and principle, civil war and social movement, to end this oppression). But activism indicates moral anguish in whites, and so it constitutes the witness minorities crave. They feel seen, understood. With the invisible hand the special case of their suffering doesn't count for much, and they go without witness.

So here stands contemporary American conservatism amidst its cultural liabilities and, now, its electoral failures -- with no mechanism to redeem America of its shames, atavistically resisted by minorities, and vulnerable to stigmatization as a bigoted and imperialistic political orientation. Today's liberalism may stand on decades of failed ideas, but it is failure in the name of American redemption. It remains competitive with -- even ascendant over -- conservatism because it addresses America's moral accountability to its past with moral activism. This is the left's great power, and a good part of the reason Barack Obama is now the president of the United States. No matter his failures -- or the fruitlessness of his extravagant and scatter-gun governmental activism -- he redeems America of an ugly past. How does conservatism compete with this?

The first impulse is to moderate. With "compassionate conservatism" and "affirmative access" and "faith-based initiatives," President George W. Bush tried to show a redemptive conservatism that could be activist against the legacy of America's disgraceful past. And it worked electorally by moderating the image of conservatives as uncaring disciplinarians. But in the end it was only a marketer's ploy -- a shrewd advertisement with no actual product to sell.

What drew me to conservatism years ago was the fact that it gave discipline a slightly higher status than virtue. This meant it could not be subverted by passing notions of the good. It could be above moral vanity. And so it made no special promises to me as a minority. It neglected me in every way except as a human being who wanted freedom. Until my encounter with conservatism I had only known the racial determinism of segregation on the one hand and of white liberalism on the other -- two varieties of white supremacy in which I could only be dependent and inferior.

The appeal of conservatism is the mutuality it asserts between individual and political freedom, its beautiful idea of a free man in a free society. And it offers minorities the one thing they can never get from liberalism: human rather than racial dignity. I always secretly loved Malcolm X more than Martin Luther King Jr. because Malcolm wanted a fuller human dignity for blacks -- one independent of white moral wrestling. In a liberalism that wants to redeem the nation of its past, minorities can only be ciphers in white struggles of conscience.

Liberalism's glamour follows from its promise of a new American innocence. But the appeal of conservatism is relief from this supercilious idea. Innocence is not possible for America. This nation did what it did. And conservatism's appeal is that it does not bank on the recovery of lost innocence. It seeks the discipline of ordinary people rather than the virtuousness of extraordinary people. The challenge for conservatives today is simply self-acceptance, and even a little pride in the way we flail away at problems with an invisible hand
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123716282469235861.html
Diest TKO
 
  2  
Reply Mon 16 Mar, 2009 01:10 pm
@Foxfyre,
All hot air fox. The mouth moves, it nothing actually comes out. I'dove to hear a "conservative" support their beliefs without making a reference to the opposing liberal/progressive viewpoint.

Instead we get hot air and zero substance. Conservatives are just complaineds with nothing new to contribute it seems.

The article you posted fox does nothing to account for why conservatism doesn't appeal to minorites. It instead blames liberals for their failure to gain favor with conservative ideals. It's pathetic.

As for steele's notion that conservatives belive in the disipline of ordinary people, it sounds romantic, but I'm immediately reminded of how the trickle down effect doesn't work. The failure of disiple is not on ordinary people.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  -3  
Reply Mon 16 Mar, 2009 01:33 pm
@Foxfyre,
Good information, Foxfyre. Hopefully someday, more and more black people will decide to finally leave the liberal plantation, that plantation being a place that liberals keep them by telling them "we are the government and we are here to help you." More and more will hopefully someday realize that it is merely a ploy to gain and exercise their power over the helpless and disadvantaged, by keeping them believing that they are.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Mar, 2009 01:39 pm
@okie,
Yes, summed up in this line: "Until my encounter with conservatism I had only known the racial determinism of segregation on the one hand and of white liberalism on the other -- two varieties of white supremacy in which I could only be dependent and inferior."

His thought processes are amazing, even if he does occasionally send me to the dictionary. For instance, I haven't had to work 'atavistically' into a sentence in ages, but it is a good word to know. Smile

0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Mon 16 Mar, 2009 01:42 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
If the US missile defense system is so bogus, then why is Russia so upset about it?

Because they are figuring -- correctly -- that the missile defense system makes no sense for protecting Europe against attacks from Iran, which is its officially stated purpose. They conclude -- probably correctly again -- that the deployment is a hostile action against Russia that may be followed by other hostile actions.

Foxyre wrote:
If there is no merit to it, why are European nations so eager to benefit from it?

What makes you think they are? Certainly the article you cited provides no support for this assumption.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Mar, 2009 01:52 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
If the US missile defense system is so bogus, then why is Russia so upset about it?

Because they are figuring -- correctly -- that the missile defense system makes no sense for protecting Europe against attacks from Iran, which is its officially stated purpose. They conclude -- probably correctly again -- that the deployment is a hostile action against Russia that may be followed by other hostile actions.


How is it a hostile action against Russia? On what basis do you draw that conclusion?

Quote:
Foxyre wrote:
If there is no merit to it, why are European nations so eager to benefit from it?

What makes you think they are? Certainly the article you cited provides no support for this assumption.


What makes me think that at least some European nations are eager to accept a missile defense shield is because I'm not seeing a lot of headlines where they are nixing that idea. Do you know something about such opposition that we haven't seen here?
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Mon 16 Mar, 2009 01:54 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:

How is it a hostile action against Russia? On what basis do you draw that conclusion?


So, if Russia put 'anti-missile bases,' fully stocked and capable of launching missiles deep into the heart of America - with who knows what payloads on them - into Cuba, you wouldn't have a problem with that at all?

C'mon, Fox, think about things for a second!!

Cycloptichorn
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Mar, 2009 02:02 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I would think Russia would have a problem if they were unable to inspect the anti-missile systems being installed. I have seen no evidence that they have been denied such ability to inspect. And if Russia installs anti-missile defense systems in Cuba and gives us ability to inspect, I doubt we would have any problem with that either.

We're not talking about installing new ICBMs here.
 

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