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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Mar, 2009 10:28 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxie, Most banks are domestic and international; trying to value assets all over the US based on mark to market is a effort in futility; it can't be done, because different areas have different valuations of property. The banks would have to segregate their assets by ZIP code or other means that has some semblance of continuity. That job will require thousands of auditors and staff expert in valuing property, but as soon as their done, it's already outdated.

Accounting rules are not always practical.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Mon 9 Mar, 2009 10:32 am
HOW SHALL WE SAVE OUR CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC?

The solution is not to repeatedly sound alarms and repeatedly give the reasons for those alarms. The solution is to impeach President Obama. He is continually transferring wealth from those who lawfully earned it to those who have not earned it.

Nowhere in the Constitution"not even in Article I. Section 8.--has the President, the Congress, or the Judiciary been granted the power to make such wealth transfers. Any branch of the federal government that makes such wealth transfers violates the "supreme law of the land," and their "oath or affirmation to support this Constitution""Article VI. Making such wealth transfers is exercising "powers not delegated to the United States" and therefore violates the Constitution"Amendment X. Making such wealth transfers is an act of treason against the United States and is "adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort" "Article III. Section 3.

We have to convince those in the House of Representatives, who do not violate their oaths to support the Constitution, to make a motion to impeach President Obama. Failure--or excessive delay--to take this necessary first step will guarantee the transformation of our country from a Constitutional Republic to a dictatorship.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Mon 9 Mar, 2009 10:38 am
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

HOW SHALL WE SAVE OUR CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC?

The solution is not to repeatedly sound alarms and repeatedly give the reasons for those alarms. The solution is to impeach President Obama. He is continually transferring wealth from those who lawfully earned it to those who have not earned it.

Nowhere in the Constitution"not even in Article I. Section 8.--has the President, the Congress, or the Judiciary been granted the power to make such wealth transfers. Any branch of the federal government that makes such wealth transfers violates the "supreme law of the land," and their "oath or affirmation to support this Constitution""Article VI. Making such wealth transfers is exercising "powers not delegated to the United States" and therefore violates the Constitution"Amendment X. Making such wealth transfers is an act of treason against the United States and is "adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort" "Article III. Section 3.

We have to convince those in the House of Representatives, who do not violate their oaths to support the Constitution, to make a motion to impeach President Obama. Failure--or excessive delay--to take this necessary first step will guarantee the transformation of our country from a Constitutional Republic to a dictatorship.



Wow, you're really sort of nuts.

But funny; so let me ask you, did you try to impeach Bush for the same 'wealth transfers?' He supported the same tax code which took money from the rich and used it to support the poor.

Cycloptichorn
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Mon 9 Mar, 2009 10:43 am
Perhaps Ican isn't so 'nuts'. Am I ready to say that impeachment is the answer out of our present dilemma? No. I'm not ready to say that. But do I think conservatives better stop being so 'nice' and 'understated'? Yes. I do think that. So whether or not I come around to Ican's thinking, I give him props for at least putting it out there to be debated, discredited, considered, affirmed or however it comes down.

Thomas Sowell's last essay provides some insight into the concept of telling it like it is:

Quote:
Jewish World Review March 3, 2009 7 Adar 5769
Is Talk Cheap?
By Thomas Sowell

They say talk is cheap. But in fact it can be devastatingly expensive. Among the generation of Germans who were enthralled by Hitler's eloquence, millions paid with their lives and their children's lives for empowering this demagogue to lead them to ruin and infamy.

Germany before Hitler was one of the more tolerant nations in Europe. That was what attracted so many Jewish immigrants from Eastern Europe " tragically, to their doom.

German immigrants who settled around the world have been among the more tolerant peoples " not angels, a standard that only intellectuals could use, but comparing favorably with most others.

Do not for one moment think that we are either intellectually or morally superior to those Germans who put Hitler in power. We have been saved by our institutions and our traditions " the very institutions and traditions that so many are so busy eroding or dismantling, whether in classrooms or court rooms or in the halls of Congress and the White House.

Talk matters for good reasons as well as bad. Anyone familiar with the desperate predicament of Britain in 1940, when it stood alone against the Nazi juggernaut that had smashed whole nations in weeks or even days, knows how crucial Winston Churchill's command of the English language was to sustaining the national will, which was the margin between survival and annihilation.

Unfortunately, people on the make seem to have a keener appreciation of the power of words, as the magic road to other power, than do people defending values that seem to them too obvious to require words.

The expression, "It goes without saying. . ." is a fatal trap. Few things go without saying. Some of the most valuable things in life may go away without saying " whether loved ones in one's personal life or the freedom or survival of a nation.

Barack Obama is today's most prominent example of the power of words. Conversely, the understated patrician style of country club Republicans is no small part of their many problems.

It is no accident that by far the most successful Republican politician of our lifetime " Ronald Reagan " was a man who did not come from that country club background but someone who was born among the people and who knew how to communicate with the people.

Words can shield the most blatant reality. Legislation to take away workers' rights to a secret ballot, when deciding whether or not they want to be represented by a labor union, is called the "Employees' Freedom of Choice Act."

The merits or demerits of this legislation have seldom been debated. Who could be against "freedom of choice"?

The Obama administration's new budget, with deficits that make previous irresponsible deficits look like child's play, has a cover that says "A New Era of Responsibility."

You want responsibility? He'll give you the word "responsibility." Why not? It costs nothing.

Some observers are contrasting last week's highly successful speech by President Obama to Congress with the lackluster Republican response afterwards by Governor Bobby Jindal of Louisiana.

People familiar with Governor Jindal have a high regard for him and many think he would make a good president. But Republicans have always had more people who would make good presidents than people who would make good presidential candidates. So long as we have a democracy, that distinction is crucial.

Governor Jindal made a typical Republican mistake when he began with a "me too" celebration of Obama's "historic" election. With a very limited time to address some complex issues, he needed to get right to the point and sober up such members of the audience as were capable of being sobered up.

He was, in a sense, defensive, as if he had to establish that he was a good guy. General Douglas MacArthur gave a one-word definition of defensive warfare: defeat.

There can be too many words, as well as too few. Governor Sarah Palin is doing herself no good by discussing her disastrous interview with Katie Couric. That does not look presidential, or even senatorial. A quarterback has to forget the interception he threw last time, and just make a better throw next time.
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell030309.php3
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Mon 9 Mar, 2009 10:45 am
@Foxfyre,
I don't have a problem with him putting whatever opinion out there he likes; I just see a little hypocrisy in his calling for Obama's impeachment when the guy has been in office less than 2 months, and is continuing many of the same programs Bush had in place that did the same things Ican is complaining about. Yet never a word from him about impeachment of Bush.

Cycloptichorn
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Mar, 2009 10:48 am
@Foxfyre,
"I have a problem with the government telling a private business whether or not they can allow smoking on premises if the proprietor and patrons want to smoke tobacco. It is a legal substance and it isn't being forced on anybody, And that includes private restaurants though I think it would be okay for the business to be required to alert people that smoking was allowed inside so they could choose to enter or not."

The second-hand smoke is being forced on everybody in that restaurant or store. That's basically stating that someone can't patronize that business unless they want to breath in second hand smoke. You're right, now it's the majority rules and the businesses would rather restrict smoking. It can't be that inconvenient to be in a store for an hour and not smoke. Is the smoker going to go into withdrawal and trip out? Push over displays or put his billed soap bowl over the waiter's head? I realize one is in the movie theater for more than one hour and those were the some of the frist private establishments open to the public that started restricting smoking to the balconies, or even provided glassed-in rooms to see the movie. Now, in California at least, you cannot smoke in a movie theater.

Of course, years ago at the Cinerama Dome in Hollywood revival showing of "2001," the smell of grass in the air was unmistakable. Nobody got arrested and I'm assuming that was every show.

My problem with Williams, although a credentialed economist/journalist/professor, he barks up the same tree over and over and over again, ad nauseum. Smoking ordinances is hardly an excuse to begin carping about losing freedoms and comparing all social programs as being communism and many times worse than the Nazis. Connect the dots -- that is what he stated and meant.

Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Mon 9 Mar, 2009 10:53 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Two way sword. Those screaming for Bush's impeachment seem to be entirely tolerant of the current President's indiscretions and excesses. I acknowledge your point, but when hypocrisy is equal on both sides, it seems more practical to not focus on that but rather discuss the merit of the suggestion.

How much damage can be done in in two months? At what point does the pendulum swing so far that it gets stuck and can't be brought back? Is 'wait and see' always the best policy?

Is Dr. Sowell right that we should be wary of soothing words lulling us into complacency when we need to be defending our rights, way of life, opportunities, destiny that could be taken from us?
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Mar, 2009 10:55 am
@Cycloptichorn,
The call to impeach King Bush came at the end of his reign -- it was likely interrupted early in his first term by 9/11.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Mon 9 Mar, 2009 10:57 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Two way sword. Those screaming for Bush's impeachment seem to be entirely tolerant of the current President's indiscretions and excesses. I acknowledge your point, but when hypocrisy is equal on both sides, it seems more practical to not focus on that but rather discuss the merit of the suggestion.


Well, Bush's detractors were mostly focused on his breaking of actual laws, as opposed to differences in opinion about finances. So far as I can tell, nobody has accused Obama of violating the law yet.

Quote:
How much damage can be done in in two months? At what point does the pendulum swing so far that it gets stuck and can't be brought back? Is 'wait and see' always the best policy?

Is Dr. Sowell right that we should be wary of soothing words lulling us into complacency when we need to be defending our rights, way of life, opportunities, destiny that could be taken from us?


Defending them from what?

The economy is tanking for a variety of reasons, and the stock market is reflecting this. It has very little to do with president Obama and the solutions are not exactly clear or easy ones to choose. What is it that you and others fear is going to happen, that would warrant the impeachment of Obama?

Cycloptichorn
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Mon 9 Mar, 2009 11:00 am
@Lightwizard,
As a non smoker and with other fish to fry, I also don't feel as passionately about the smoking ordinances as Professor Williams does. But at the same time, we have to take a stand somewhere. He picked that particular hill as the symbol to defend re erosion of individual rights. Somebody else might pick another one--Dr. Sowell's essay zeroed in on the current no secret ballot for union members issue as an illustration to make his point.

As Walter did when he took exception to Williams' comparing the devastation of Nazi practices with that of the Soviets and Communist Chinese, I think we sometimes focus on the minutia of the illustrations or symbols rather than on the larger issue being expressed.
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Mon 9 Mar, 2009 11:04 am
@Cycloptichorn,
You're missing the point, I think. It is your opinion that President Bush broke actual laws (though a rationale for that is rarely offered and/or supported), and it is Ican's (and my) opinion that President Obama, intentionally or unintentionally, is violating the letter and intent of the U.S. Constitution though Ican and I might differ a bit in how we perceive that he is doing that.

And THAT is what the invitation to debate is about. You can continue to debate ad hominem and focus on his 'hypocrisy' in bringing up the subject or the way he states it or how 'crazy' he might or might not be. Or you can rebut the premise of the argument with a better argument if you are able. He is at least providing the basis for his argument. What is the basis for yours?
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Mon 9 Mar, 2009 11:15 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

You're missing the point, I think. It is your opinion that President Bush broke actual laws (though a rationale for that is rarely offered and/or supported), and it is Ican's (and my) opinion that President Obama, intentionally or unintentionally, is violating the letter and intent of the U.S. Constitution though Ican and I might differ a bit in how we perceive that he is doing that.

And THAT is what the invitation to debate is about. You can continue to debate ad hominem and focus on his 'hypocrisy' in bringing up the subject or the way he states it or how 'crazy' he might or might not be. Or you can rebut the premise of the argument with a better argument if you are able. He is at least providing the basis for his argument. What is the basis for yours?


Fine. The basis for my argument is -

The Constitution does not require for each dollar made by Americans to be taxed equally; and, the Constitution does not prevent Obama and the Legislature from undertaking any of the actions they have undertaken whatsoever.

Ican is a notorious tax denier and has a questionable understanding of the Constitution; I certainly don't need to remind you of either of those facts. For him to focus so strongly on Obama's impeachment is a little ridiculous.

There is no doubt whatsoever that Bush ordered actions which violated the 4th amendment, FISA, and treaties against torture, amongst numerous other duplicitous acts on his part.

Cycloptichorn
Lightwizard
 
  2  
Reply Mon 9 Mar, 2009 11:16 am
@Foxfyre,
There is no right to slowly poison and affect the health of those around you.

Williams disqualified all his opinions after he brought up smoking in public or around other people in a restaurant as a right.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Mar, 2009 11:17 am
@Foxfyre,
Everybody misses the point - according to Foxie. She's the only one who has a fix on issues that is infallible, precise and to the point. It's always "our" misunderstanding that gets in the way.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Mon 9 Mar, 2009 11:25 am
@Lightwizard,
Lightwizard wrote:

The call to impeach King Bush came at the end of his reign -- it was likely interrupted early in his first term by 9/11.


Thank you for an opinion that is not ad hominem. Smile Those are rare coming from those on the left side of the spectrum and I very much appreciate it.

And I agree with this. From Day One, I think President Bush was the most hated President ever elected to office. (I go back to the first chapter of Bill Sammons' book Misunderestimated describing the pure, unadulturated and frightening venom launched at the President in a visit to Portland and this was before 9/11. That illustrated the passionate hate directed at him from the Left from the very beginning.

There were calls for his resignation or for his election to be set aside and declared illegal or whatever prior to 9/11. Probably there were calls for impeachment in there somewhere too. Every day some new thread with a title derogatory to President Bush was being posted on A2K. The tragedy of 9/11 did prompt a unified patriotism that created a honeymoon period for him that he never would have had otherwise.

I regret that he squandered much of that on ill advised policy and programs, but I remain firm in my belief that he never intended to do harm. I did not and do not question his motives and I still give him props for those things he got right.

With President Obama, I am not convinced he intends to do harm either, nor am I am confident of his motives when the actions seem to be something very different than the rhetoric. I am fully prepared to and will give him props for what he gets right. But I am not willing to sit by and be quiet about what I think are wrong or destructive policies or when I think policy is being intentionally camouflaged with high sounding rhetoric just because he has been in office for only a few weeks.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Mon 9 Mar, 2009 11:26 am
@Lightwizard,
Lightwizard wrote:

There is no right to slowly poison and affect the health of those around you.

Williams disqualified all his opinions after he brought up smoking in public or around other people in a restaurant as a right.


I disagree. I think it is the right of people to smoke a legal substance on private property where the proprietor is okay with that. I do not think it is a right to have a smoke free environment on somebody else's private property even if it is a restaurant. That is the point Williams was making. It is a dangerous thing when we give the government the right to dictate what we can or cannot do with our own private property that does not affect the rights of others.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Mon 9 Mar, 2009 11:36 am
@Foxfyre,
Legal doesn't make it unhealthy or unsafe for the people around them. It's legal to drive a car, but it's a crime to harm anybody with it. What's the difference?
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Mon 9 Mar, 2009 11:42 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Legal doesn't make it unhealthy or unsafe for the people around them. It's legal to drive a car, but it's a crime to harm anybody with it. What's the difference?


The difference is what is voluntary and what is not. I voluntarily assume the risk of driving on the public highways knowing full well that somebody could crash their car into mine. If I don't wish to take that risk, I can stay home. I do not voluntarily agree to share the road with drunk drivers or otherwise unskilled or impaired drivers that unnecessarily increases my risk.

I have the choice whether to enter a restaurant or not. If I do not wish to be exposed to smoke I would choose a non smoking restaurant over a smoking one. If I choose to smoke, however, or the smoke doesn't bother me, why should I not also have the option to patronize a private business establishment where smoking is allowed?

Next we will see the government forbidding all products with peanuts because some have a dangerous allergy to peanuts or requiring gluten free products because so many people can't tolerate them. We are already seeing some do-gooders targeting the fast food places because some people get fat eating Big Macs.

The principle is individual rights and individual responsibility and accountablility versus the government dictating virtually everything that we may or may not do whether or not our choices affect anybody else.
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Mon 9 Mar, 2009 11:45 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
But funny; so let me ask you, did you try to impeach Bush for the same 'wealth transfers?' He supported the same tax code which took money from the rich and used it to support the poor.

I did not wise up quick enough to advocate impeaching Bush or any of his predecessors who transferred the wealth of those who lawfully earned it to those who did not earn it.

It wasn't until 2008, that Bush's massive transfer of the wealth of those who lawfully earned it to those who did not earn it, that I finally wised up. Since Bush was going to cease to be President after January 20, 2009, I saw no reason to bother to impeach Bush.

Obama on the otherhand cannot be removed from the presidency without impeachment before January 20, 2013. Because Obama is currently making and threatening to make a far more massive transfer of the wealth of those who lawfully earned it to those who did not earn it, and because the ultimate consequences of what Obama is doing and threatening to do is the destruction of our the Constitutional Republic I love, I am finally compelled to act now.

While the full consequences of Obama's destruction of our Constitutional Republic will not be suffered by my wife and me before we die, those full consequences will be suffered by our kids and their children before they die.

I've wasted enough time already!
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Mon 9 Mar, 2009 11:46 am
@Foxfyre,
Quote:

The difference is what is voluntary and what is not. I voluntarily assume the risk of driving on the public highways knowing full well that somebody could crash their car into mine. If I don't wish to take that risk, I can stay home. I do not voluntarily agree to share the road with drunk drivers or otherwise unskilled or impaired drivers that unnecessarily increases my risk.


I suppose the argument goes that those who work in such establishments don't have the option of not being around it. It's unreasonable to expect them all to quit over an optional, airborne toxic substance which is decidedly unhealthy to inhale.

I say this as an ex-smoker who has a lot of experience with smoking and non-smoking places...

Cycloptichorn
 

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