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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
Debra Law
 
  2  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 03:25 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre:

When George entered this thread and made his comment about the name calling, etc., he was making a point that ALL OF US (you included) need to address and resolve. Whether you acknowledge it or not, you can be just as hateful, rude, and unkind as you accuse others of being. We're making this discussion unpleasant for ourselves and for others. We have an opportunity to get this discussion back on track.

I don't dislike YOU as a person. I have mentioned before that my sister in California holds many of your same views. I certainly don't hate my sister, I just don't understand her mindset. Most often, she is loving and kind and has suffered many hardships. She's been divorced three times and will soon be married for a fourth time. It astounds me that someone who cherishes marriage so much that she would want to do it FOUR TIMES would go to the voting booth for the purpose of casting her vote to deprive other human beings of the same right that she enjoys (so often)! LOL

I didn't complete my list of discussion attributes that cause frustration. Like I said before, the FIRST problem is nailing down your point. It's a waste of time to respond to whatever point you're making if you don't make your point clear. When you constantly allege that you didn't say what you actually said, it leaves me with the impression that you're not being genuine and you're avoiding the difficulty of addressing the merits of the response.

You use many strategies thereafter to avoid addressing the merits of the response. Even if a poster puts in significant time and effort to address your point and to provide links to supporting materials, you either deny that the poster addressed the point or you criticize the source of the supporting materials. And yet, you will often use those same sources when you make your own posts. It gets many people's eyes rolling in dismay and frustration. Then you become defensive and tell people to put you on ignore. It's a vicious cycle that needs to be broken.

If we can agree to some basic ground rules, this discussion can be improved and become far more enjoyable for all of us.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 03:28 pm
@Lightwizard,
Lightwizard wrote:

Being in bed but not owning the large corporations is part of fascism. Remind you of anything?


Hmm. Do you think? Would that apply to unions? Community organizer groups like ACORN? Going after private citizens by investigating (and publishing) their tax history, etc.? Or trying to shut them up on the radio? Does any of that remind you of anything?

However, Facism sort of requires ownership or at least government control of corporations, large and small.

A definition I saved from somewhere, but failed to source it:
Quote:
Fascism is the philosophy of gaining and holding political power by harnessing the inchoate resentment of that hating portion of the population who are always there
.

Mussolini’s definition
Quote:
The foundation of Fascism is the conception of the State, its character, its duty, and its aim. Fascism conceives of the State as an absolute, in comparison with which all individuals or groups are relative, only to be conceived of in their relation to the State. The conception of the Liberal State is not that of a directing force, guiding the play and development, both material and spiritual, of a collective body, but merely a force limited to the function of recording results: on the other hand, the Fascist State is itself conscious and has itself a will and a personality -- thus it may be called the "ethic" State....

...The Fascist State organizes the nation, but leaves a sufficient margin of liberty to the individual; the latter is deprived of all useless and possibly harmful freedom, but retains what is essential; the deciding power in this question cannot be the individual, but the State alone....
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/mussolini-fascism.html


The simple version from the Online dictionary
Quote:
fas·cism (fshzm)
n.
1. often Fascism

a. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

b. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.

2. Oppressive, dictatorial control.

fas·cistic (f-shstk) adj.
Word History: It is fitting that the name of an authoritarian political movement like Fascism, founded in 1919 by Benito Mussolini, should come from the name of a symbol of authority. The Italian name of the movement, fascismo, is derived from fascio, "bundle, (political) group," but also refers to the movement's emblem, the fasces, a bundle of rods bound around a projecting axe-head that was carried before an ancient Roman magistrate by an attendant as a symbol of authority and power. The name of Mussolini's group of revolutionaries was soon used for similar nationalistic movements in other countries that sought to gain power through violence and ruthlessness, such as National Socialism.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/fascism
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 03:51 pm
@Foxfyre,
I'd thought, fascism means anything similar or equal of Mussolini's "Fasci di combattimento“-movement.

While it was quite easy between 1920 and 1940 (just few countries, Italy, Germany, Spain could be called fascist) to explain this term with examples, it seems to have got not only an even broader but a more nebulous meaning.

Asked someone about the symbolic meaning of fasces ...
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 03:55 pm
@Foxfyre,
From the 14 characteristics of fascism:

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

-and-

Fascism and Big Business is a book first written in 1936 by the French historian Daniel Guérin. The book, which was written before the Second World War broke out, examines the development of nazism in Germany and fascism in Italy and its relationship with the capitalist families there. Its main thesis is that Fascism supported the heavy industrial sector (represented in Germany by Krupp, Emil Kirdorf, etc.) to the detriment of lighter industrial sectors, dedicated to building consumer goods. It points out the failure of "corporatism," which in effect meant the dismantlement of trade unions and the impossibility for workers to elect their own representants, which were nominated by the fascist.

Again, remind you of anything?
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 04:02 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

The solution is not to repeatedly sound alarms and repeatedly give the reasons for those alarms. The solution is to impeach President Obama. He is continually transferring wealth from those who earned it to those who have not earned it.


President Obama has been in office just over one month. Accordingly, your statement that the President "is continually transferring wealth . . . " has no basis in fact.

Social welfare programs have existed in this country since before our current president was born. Thus, it has been a policy of many successive government administrations to use tax dollars to fund social programs. Did you also call for the impeachment of President Bush and those who preceded him for their roles in approving budgets that funded social programs?


Quote:
Nowhere in the Constitution has either the President, the Congress, or the Judiciary been granted the power to make such wealth transfers.


You are wrong. The Constitution provides the power and authority to the federal government to impose and collect taxes. Congress holds the power of the federal purse. Congress may spend federal dollars any way it wants to spend them. Our congressional representatives are accountable to the people when they enter the voting booth. If you want to prevent Congress from passing budgets that include funding for social welfare programs, you need to do one of the following:

1) vote the spenders out of office; or

2) invoke our constitutional amendment provisions and seek to amend the Constitution to place limits on Congress's power over the federal purse.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 04:03 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
I think your graph is easier to understand by the placement of Netherlands on the graph. It's also interesting to see Sweden almost smack dab in the middle.
0 Replies
 
JamesMorrison
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 04:29 pm
@Foxfyre,
In Fairness to the Obama Administration please find their arguments RE their intents towards the future of America. The Following is from David Brook's colunm in today's NYT. He is a moderate conservative.

Quote:
March 6, 2009
Op-Ed Columnist
When Obamatons Respond
By DAVID BROOKS
On Tuesday, I wrote that the Obama budget is a liberal, big government document that should make moderates nervous. The column generated a large positive response from moderate Obama supporters who are anxious about where the administration is headed. It was not so popular inside the White House. Within a day, I had conversations with four senior members of the administration and in the interest of fairness, I thought I’d share their arguments with you today.

In the first place, they do not see themselves as a group of liberal crusaders. They see themselves as pragmatists who inherited a government and an economy that have been thrown out of whack. They’re not engaged in an ideological project to overturn the Reagan Revolution, a fight that was over long ago. They’re trying to restore balance: nurture an economy so that productivity gains are shared by the middle class and correct the irresponsible habits that developed during the Bush era.

The budget, they continue, isn’t some grand transformation of America. It raises taxes on energy and offsets them with tax cuts for the middle class. It raises taxes on the rich to a level slightly above where they were in the Clinton years and then uses the money as a down payment on health care reform. That’s what the budget does. It’s not the Russian Revolution.

Second, they argue, the Obama administration will not usher in an era of big government. Federal spending over the last generation has been about 20 percent of G.D.P. This year, it has surged to about 27 percent. But they aim to bring spending down to 22 percent of G.D.P. in a few years. And most of the increase, they insist, is caused by the aging of the population and the rise of mandatory entitlement spending. It’s not caused by big increases in the welfare state.

The White House has produced a chart showing nondefense discretionary spending as a share of G.D.P. That’s spending for education, welfare and all the stuff that Democrats love. Since 1985, this spending has hovered around 3.7 percent of G.D.P. This year, it’s about 4.6 percent. The White House claims that it is going to reduce this spending to 3.1 percent by 2019, lower than at any time in any recent Republican administration. I was invited to hang this chart on my wall and judge them by how well they meet these targets. (I have.)

Third, they say, Republicans should welcome the budget’s health care ideas. The Medicare reform represents a big cut in entitlement spending. It amounts to means-testing the system. It introduces more competition and cuts corporate welfare. These are all Republican ideas.

Over the long run, Obama has insisted that health care reform will be deficit-neutral. Many experts believe this will force Democrats to reduce the tax exemption for employee insurance benefits in order to raise revenue. This idea is at the core of most conservative reform proposals.

Fourth, the White House claims the budget will not produce a sea of red ink. Deficits are now at a gargantuan 12 percent of G.D.P., but the White House aims to bring this down to 3.5 percent in 2012. Besides, the long-range debt is what matters, and on this subject President Obama is hawkish.

He is extremely committed to entitlement reform and is plotting politically feasible ways to reduce Social Security as well as health spending. The White House folks didn’t say this, but I got the impression they’d be willing to raise taxes on the bottom 95 percent of earners as part of an overall package.

Fifth, the Obama folks feel they spend as much time resisting liberal ideas as enacting them. The president resisted union pressure and capped pay increases for government workers. He resisted efforts to create mandatory veterans’ health benefits. The administration plans to tackle the suspiciously large increase in the number of people claiming disability benefits.

I didn’t finish these conversations feeling chastened exactly. The fact is, after years of economic growth, the White House still projects perpetual deficits of more than $500 billion a year. That’s way too much, especially with the boomers’ retirements looming. Moreover, Congress will likely pass the spending parts of the budget and kill the revenue parts, like the cap-and-trade energy tax and the limits on itemized deductions, thus producing much, much bigger deficits.

Plus, I’m still convinced the administration is trying to do too much too fast and that the hasty planning and execution of these complex policies will lead to untold problems down the road.

Nonetheless, the White House made a case that was sophisticated and fact-based. These people know how to lead a discussion and set a tone of friendly cooperation. I’m more optimistic that if Senate moderates can get their act together and come up with their own proactive plan, they can help shape a budget that allays their anxieties while meeting the president’s goals.


JM
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 04:39 pm
@Lightwizard,
Lightwizard wrote:

From the 14 characteristics of fascism:

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

-and-

Fascism and Big Business is a book first written in 1936 by the French historian Daniel Guérin. The book, which was written before the Second World War broke out, examines the development of nazism in Germany and fascism in Italy and its relationship with the capitalist families there. Its main thesis is that Fascism supported the heavy industrial sector (represented in Germany by Krupp, Emil Kirdorf, etc.) to the detriment of lighter industrial sectors, dedicated to building consumer goods. It points out the failure of "corporatism," which in effect meant the dismantlement of trade unions and the impossibility for workers to elect their own representants, which were nominated by the fascist.

Again, remind you of anything?


Ah yes. Would this be the same 14 points developed by this objective, unbiased, fair and objective group?:
http://republicanfreeamerica.blogspot.com/2006/10/14-characteristics-of-fascism-credits.html

Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 04:44 pm
@Foxfyre,
You must admit that they have extensively sourced their work.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 04:53 pm
@JamesMorrison,
I will consider if I would describe Brooks as a 'moderate conservative'. Based on his writings I had him pegged as a 'moderate liberal' albeit one of the more honest ones along the lines of work by William Raspberry, Michael Kinsley, and a few others whom I have admired, respected, and have read or read frequently.

But it was a good article and does contribute effectively to the debate. Were you reassured?

I'm afraid that I am not yet reassured because after campaigning on the economy for two years, our President and his team are no longer discussing the economy. They even went so far as to tell us not to worry about it--don't watch the stock market, etc. etc. They are talking about grandiose plans of big goernment spending stretching as far as the eye can see and a huge chunk of it on borrowed money. They apparently have no plans to fix the banks and until that is done, I can't see how anything is going to get much better. Our Treasury Secretary apparently can't recruit a qualified team to work with him. That's not good.

But I confess to a certain amount of pessimism when I see the lack of confidence in the leadership so far among those who work with the economic indicators and consumer confidence. Perhaps I should probably look for anything positive offered?
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 04:54 pm
@Debra Law,
My responses to your post are in purple.
ican711nm wrote:
The solution is not to repeatedly sound alarms and repeatedly give the reasons for those alarms. The solution is to impeach President Obama. He is continually transferring wealth from those who earned it to those who have not earned it.


President Obama has been in office just over one month. Accordingly, your statement that the President "is continually transferring wealth . . . " has no basis in fact.

Obama has been transferring wealth for the last two weeks. How do I know that? I know that because I heard Obama himself say so!

Social welfare programs have existed in this country since before our current president was born. Thus, it has been a policy of many successive government administrations to use tax dollars to fund social programs. Did you also call for the impeachment of President Bush and those who preceded him for their roles in approving budgets that funded social programs?

Good point! Shame on me and you for not calling for the impeachment of Bush for doing that.

Obama says he is extending or plans to extend this violation of the USA Constitution by several trillion dollars, far exceeding what any of his predecessors have done.


ican711nm wrote:
Nowhere in the Constitution has either the President, the Congress, or the Judiciary been granted the power to make such wealth transfers.


You are wrong. The Constitution provides the power and authority to the federal government to impose and collect taxes. Congress holds the power of the federal purse. Congress may spend federal dollars any way it wants to spend them. Our congressional representatives are accountable to the people when they enter the voting booth. If you want to prevent Congress from passing budgets that include funding for social welfare programs, you need to do one of the following:

1) vote the spenders out of office; or

2) invoke our constitutional amendment provisions and seek to amend the Constitution to place limits on Congress's power over the federal purse.

No you are wrong! Nothing in the Constitution says: "Congress may spend federal dollars any way it wants to spend them." The Constitution as amended 27 times, has therefore not granted Congress that power. Because the Constitution has not granted Congress that power, Congress does not have that power.

Here's some evidence to support by claim--Please provide your evidence to support your claim):

Quote:

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/bill_of_rights_transcript.html
Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Quote:

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html
Article VI
...
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.

Quote:

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html
Article I. Section 8. Section 8. The Congress shall have power
To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
...


Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 04:56 pm
@Lightwizard,
Foxfyre wrote:
A definition I saved from somewhere, but failed to source it:
Quote:
Fascism is the philosophy of gaining and holding political power by harnessing the inchoate resentment of that hating portion of the population who are always there.


Based on my observations over the past several years, the Republican Party gained power and held power by harnessing the politics of hate. By latching onto highly divisive social issues and exploiting those issues, the Republican Party was able to build a coalition of voters, with the "haters" constituting the core, that was strong enough to take control of Congress and the Presidency.


Lightwizard wrote:

From the 14 characteristics of fascism:

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite. . . .


While the "little people" were at each other's throats over equal rights for gays (or whatever other hot button they could push), Big Business financed Republican Party candidates who were schooled in "The Federalist Society" ideologies, which led to the UNITARY EXECUTIVE, which, in turn, supported an aristocracy. By placing their candidates in office, Big Business secured deregulation and favorable tax policies. Big Business achieved the ability to park billions of dollars of profits in overseas accounts to avoid income taxes and moved millions of jobs overseas to take advantage of cheap labor pools.

As a result, American wage earner's incomes remained stagnant and our economy failed to grow through the production of actual goods and services. As noted in previous posts, the growth reflected by the markets was artificial. Elected Republicans continued to stir the pot over divisive social issues for the purpose diverting attention away from what they were doing--creating an aristocracy where the rich got richer and the poor got poorer. Divide and conquer.
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 05:35 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

My responses to your post are in purple.
ican711nm wrote:
The solution is not to repeatedly sound alarms and repeatedly give the reasons for those alarms. The solution is to impeach President Obama. He is continually transferring wealth from those who earned it to those who have not earned it.


President Obama has been in office just over one month. Accordingly, your statement that the President "is continually transferring wealth . . . " has no basis in fact.

Obama has been transferring wealth for the last two weeks. How do I know that? I know that because I heard Obama himself say so!

Social welfare programs have existed in this country since before our current president was born. Thus, it has been a policy of many successive government administrations to use tax dollars to fund social programs. Did you also call for the impeachment of President Bush and those who preceded him for their roles in approving budgets that funded social programs?

Good point! Shame on me and you for not calling for the impeachment of Bush for doing that.

Obama says he is extending or plans to extend this violation of the USA Constitution by several trillion dollars, far exceeding what any of his predecessors have done.


ican711nm wrote:
Nowhere in the Constitution has either the President, the Congress, or the Judiciary been granted the power to make such wealth transfers.


You are wrong. The Constitution provides the power and authority to the federal government to impose and collect taxes. Congress holds the power of the federal purse. Congress may spend federal dollars any way it wants to spend them. Our congressional representatives are accountable to the people when they enter the voting booth. If you want to prevent Congress from passing budgets that include funding for social welfare programs, you need to do one of the following:

1) vote the spenders out of office; or

2) invoke our constitutional amendment provisions and seek to amend the Constitution to place limits on Congress's power over the federal purse.

No you are wrong! Nothing in the Constitution says: "Congress may spend federal dollars any way it wants to spend them." The Constitution as amended 27 times, has therefore not granted Congress that power. Because the Constitution has not granted Congress that power, Congress does not have that power.

Here's some evidence to support by claim--Please provide your evidence to support your claim):

Quote:

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/bill_of_rights_transcript.html
Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Quote:

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html
Article VI
...
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.

Quote:

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html
Article I. Section 8. Section 8. The Congress shall have power
To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States
;
...





The constitutional authority that you cite EXPLICITLY grants Congress the power to tax for the purpose of providing for the general welfare. In other words, CONGRESS has the power of the purse. CONGRESS has discretion to spend federal money however it sees fit for the general welfare.

Congress passes budgets/spending bills. The President either signs the bill into law or vetos it. That's how our constitutional republic works.

Congress tried to legislate additional checks and balances for unwise spending by giving the President line-item veto power. However, when Clinton used that power, suit was brought and that power was declared unconstitutional. See Clinton v. City of New York, 524 U.S. 417 (1998). Here's what Justice Kennedy wrote in his concurring opinion:

Quote:
The Constitution is not bereft of controls over improvident spending. Federalism is one safeguard, for political accountability is easier to enforce within the States than nationwide. The other principal mechanism, of course, is control of the political branches by an informed and re sponsible electorate. Whether or not federalism and control by the electorate are adequate for the problem at hand, they are two of the structures the Framers designed for the problem the statute strives to confront. The Framers of the Constitution could not command statesmanship. They could simply provide structures from which it might emerge. The fact that these mechanisms, plus the proper functioning of the separation of powers itself, are not employed, or that they prove insufficient, cannot validate an otherwise unconstitutional device. With these observations, I join the opinion of the Court.


http://laws.findlaw.com/us/524/417.html

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 05:38 pm
@Debra Law,
Debra, Excellent observation. It was amazing to see the conservatives always cry about taxes shifting wealth from the rich to the poor while middle class and the poor's wages didn't even keep up with inflation while American productivity continued to increase. Most of the wealth went to the rich in even greater salaries and benefits, and conservatives wanted more tax cuts for the wealthy.

I'm sure many of those same people who decried the shifting of wealth through taxes, they themselves were getting more into debt and their wages not keeping up with inflation.

It's not possible that all those participants on a2k who claim to be conservatives are in the wealthy class. Can't be; that means only one thing; they've been completely brain-washed by the conservative rhetoric - even as they watched their own wealth disappear.

Amazing!

georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 05:41 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:
Defense is one big responsibility of the president, so protecting the constitution is to protect the people, within constitutional limits. Which does give the president extraordinary powers.


It does not give the prez. the power to violate the constitution in the name of defense of the people. In fact, it specifically bars him from doing so.

Cycloptichorn


In 1942 Germany inserted six potential sabateurs into this country from a submarine off the Long Island (I believe) coast. Through a series of missteps on their part they were apprehended by the U.S. Army in the State of New York. They were subsequently tried by a Military tribunal and condemned to death by hanging, executions that followed quickly after the trial. Throughout they were denied habeus corpus or the constitutional rights to discovery during their trials. Indeed the military tribunals that convicted them and condemned them to death were not even subject to the constraints of our code of military justice. No appeal of their verdict was permitted.

In this did President Roosevelt violate the constitution of the United States?

I believe the rationale used by the Bush administration in 2001 is that we were indeed in a situation equivalent to war with an amorphous group of extranational Islamic terrorists who had announced their intent to conduct repeated attacks and on an even larger scale. They explicitly noted the precedent of the Roosevelt Administration (and others from WWI and the Civil war) in their rationale.

While you may not agree with the analysis of the situation put forward by the Bush administration, I believe you should at least recognize it as a plausible rationalization and note the Congressional authorization for astions in support on the "War on Terror" as it was called. If Bush was clearly acting beyond the Constitution, then so were Roosevelt, Wilson, and Lincoln.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 05:41 pm
@JamesMorrison,
James, I'm offering this piece as a rebuttal to Brooks. I hope at least some will read thoughtfully what Brooks writes and I hope at least some will read thoughtfully what Boskin writes:

Quote:
OPINION MARCH 6, 2009
Obama's Radicalism Is Killing the Dow
A financial crisis is the worst time to change the foundations of American capitalism.
By MICHAEL J. BOSKIN

It's hard not to see the continued sell-off on Wall Street and the growing fear on Main Street as a product, at least in part, of the realization that our new president's policies are designed to radically re-engineer the market-based U.S. economy, not just mitigate the recession and financial crisis.

The illusion that Barack Obama will lead from the economic center has quickly come to an end. Instead of combining the best policies of past Democratic presidents -- John Kennedy on taxes, Bill Clinton on welfare reform and a balanced budget, for instance -- President Obama is returning to Jimmy Carter's higher taxes and Mr. Clinton's draconian defense drawdown.

Mr. Obama's $3.6 trillion budget blueprint, by his own admission, redefines the role of government in our economy and society. The budget more than doubles the national debt held by the public, adding more to the debt than all previous presidents -- from George Washington to George W. Bush -- combined. It reduces defense spending to a level not sustained since the dangerous days before World War II, while increasing nondefense spending (relative to GDP) to the highest level in U.S. history. And it would raise taxes to historically high levels (again, relative to GDP). And all of this before addressing the impending explosion in Social Security and Medicare costs.

To be fair, specific parts of the president's budget are admirable and deserve support: increased means-testing in agriculture and medical payments; permanent indexing of the alternative minimum tax and other tax reductions; recognizing the need for further financial rescue and likely losses thereon; and bringing spending into the budget that was previously in supplemental appropriations, such as funding for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The specific problems, however, far outweigh the positives. First are the quite optimistic forecasts, despite the higher taxes and government micromanagement that will harm the economy. The budget projects a much shallower recession and stronger recovery than private forecasters or the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office are projecting. It implies a vast amount of additional spending and higher taxes, above and beyond even these record levels. For example, it calls for a down payment on universal health care, with the additional "resources" needed "TBD" (to be determined).

Mr. Obama has bravely said he will deal with the projected deficits in Medicare and Social Security. While reform of these programs is vital, the president has shown little interest in reining in the growth of real spending per beneficiary, and he has rejected increasing the retirement age. Instead, he's proposed additional taxes on earnings above the current payroll tax cap of $106,800 -- a bad policy that would raise marginal tax rates still further and barely dent the long-run deficit.

Increasing the top tax rates on earnings to 39.6% and on capital gains and dividends to 20% will reduce incentives for our most productive citizens and small businesses to work, save and invest -- with effective rates higher still because of restrictions on itemized deductions and raising the Social Security cap. As every economics student learns, high marginal rates distort economic decisions, the damage from which rises with the square of the rates (doubling the rates quadruples the harm). The president claims he is only hitting 2% of the population, but many more will at some point be in these brackets.

As for energy policy, the president's cap-and-trade plan for CO2 would ensnare a vast network of covered sources, opening up countless opportunities for political manipulation, bureaucracy, or worse. It would likely exacerbate volatility in energy prices, as permit prices soar in booms and collapse in busts. The European emissions trading system has been a dismal failure. A direct, transparent carbon tax would be far better.

Moreover, the president's energy proposals radically underestimate the time frame for bringing alternatives plausibly to scale. His own Energy Department estimates we will need a lot more oil and gas in the meantime, necessitating $11 trillion in capital investment to avoid permanently higher prices.

The president proposes a large defense drawdown to pay for exploding nondefense outlays -- similar to those of Presidents Carter and Clinton -- which were widely perceived by both Republicans and Democrats as having gone too far, leaving large holes in our military. We paid a high price for those mistakes and should not repeat them.

The president's proposed limitations on the value of itemized deductions for those in the top tax brackets would clobber itemized charitable contributions, half of which are by those at the top. This change effectively increases the cost to the donor by roughly 20% (to just over 72 cents from 60 cents per dollar donated). Estimates of the responsiveness of giving to after-tax prices range from a bit above to a little below proportionate, so reductions in giving will be large and permanent, even after the recession ends and the financial markets rebound.

A similar effect will exacerbate tax flight from states like California and New York, which rely on steeply progressive income taxes collecting a large fraction of revenue from a small fraction of their residents. This attack on decentralization permeates the budget -- e.g., killing the private fee-for-service Medicare option -- and will curtail the experimentation, innovation and competition that provide a road map to greater effectiveness.

The pervasive government subsidies and mandates -- in health, pharmaceuticals, energy and the like -- will do a poor job of picking winners and losers (ask the Japanese or Europeans) and will be difficult to unwind as recipients lobby for continuation and expansion. Expanding the scale and scope of government largess means that more and more of our best entrepreneurs, managers and workers will spend their time and talent chasing handouts subject to bureaucratic diktats, not the marketplace needs and wants of consumers.

Our competitors have lower corporate tax rates and tax only domestic earnings, yet the budget seeks to restrict deferral of taxes on overseas earnings, arguing it drives jobs overseas. But the academic research (most notably by Mihir Desai, C. Fritz Foley and James Hines Jr.) reveals the opposite: American firms' overseas investments strengthen their domestic operations and employee compensation.

New and expanded refundable tax credits would raise the fraction of taxpayers paying no income taxes to almost 50% from 38%. This is potentially the most pernicious feature of the president's budget, because it would cement a permanent voting majority with no stake in controlling the cost of general government.

From the poorly designed stimulus bill and vague new financial rescue plan, to the enormous expansion of government spending, taxes and debt somehow permanently strengthening economic growth, the assumptions underlying the president's economic program seem bereft of rigorous analysis and a careful reading of history.

Unfortunately, our history suggests new government programs, however noble the intent, more often wind up delivering less, more slowly, at far higher cost than projected, with potentially damaging unintended consequences. The most recent case, of course, was the government's meddling in the housing market to bring home ownership to low-income families, which became a prime cause of the current economic and financial disaster.

On the growth effects of a large expansion of government, the European social welfare states present a window on our potential future: standards of living permanently 30% lower than ours. Rounding off perceived rough edges of our economic system may well be called for, but a major, perhaps irreversible, step toward a European-style social welfare state with its concomitant long-run economic stagnation is not.

Mr. Boskin is a professor of economics at Stanford University and a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution. He chaired the Council of Economic Advisers under President George H.W. Bush.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123629969453946717.html
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 05:43 pm
@Foxfyre,
The Hoover Institution is a conservative organization, and anything posted by them is biased.

Obama is not killing the DOW; it's the loss of jobs.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 05:44 pm
I have never understood the argument that says times of crisis are not the times to make changes.

It is nonsensical. If things were going well, surely any attempts to enact systemic and necessary changes would be shouted down by protestations that things are already working well.

The opposite of the WSJ's opinion is in fact true; the BEST time to evaluate your behavior and make changes is when the old system has proven to fail.

Cycloptichorn
Foxfyre
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 05:52 pm
Yup, the Hoover Institute is a conservative (actually libertarian conservative) think tank based at Stanford, but then this is a thread discussing Modern American Conservatism and the credentials of the fellows who make it into that group are some of the best you'll find anywhere. (As a graduate of Berkeley, he has to have some exposure in there to liberalism too, wouldn't you think?)

Quote:
http://media.hoover.org/images/michael-boskin.jpgMichael J. Boskin
Senior Fellow

Expertise: Public finance; tax, budget, and debt theory and policy; macroeconomics and monetary policy; applied economic theory

Michael J. Boskin is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution and the T. M. Friedman Professor of Economics at Stanford University. He is also a research associate at the National Bureau of Economic Research. In addition, he serves on several federal advisory panels and as an adviser to presidents and prime ministers, finance ministries, and central banks around the world, from the United States to China.

Boskin served as chairman of the President's Council of Economic Advisers (CEA) from 1989 to 1993. The independent Council for Excellence in Government rated his CEA one of the five most respected agencies (out of one hundred) in the federal government. He chaired the highly influential blue-ribbon Commission on Consumer Price Index, whose report has transformed the way government statistical agencies around the world measure inflation, GDP, and productivity.

Boskin serves on several corporate boards of directors, including Exxon Mobil Corporation, Oracle Corporation, and Vodafone PLC, and several philanthropic boards and is a consultant to numerous other businesses and government agencies.

In addition to Stanford and the University of California, Boskin has taught at Harvard and Yale. He is the author of more than one hundred books and articles. He is internationally recognized for his research on world economic growth, tax and budget theory and policy, U.S. saving and consumption patterns, and the implications of changing technology and demography on capital, labor, and product markets.

Boskin has received numerous professional awards and citations, including Stanford's Distinguished Teaching Award in 1988, the National Association of Business Economists' Abramson Award for outstanding research and its Distinguished Fellow Award, the Medal of the President of the Italian Republic in 1991 for his contributions to global economic understanding, and the 1998 Adam Smith Prize for outstanding contributions to economics.

Boskin received his B.A. with highest honors and the Chancellor's Award as outstanding undergraduate in 1967 from the University of California at Berkeley, where he also received his M.A. in 1968 and his Ph.D. in 1971.
http://www.hoover.org/bios/boskin.html
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 06:05 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Debra, Excellent observation. It was amazing to see the conservatives always cry about taxes shifting wealth from the rich to the poor while middle class and the poor's wages didn't even keep up with inflation while American productivity continued to increase. Most of the wealth went to the rich in even greater salaries and benefits, and conservatives wanted more tax cuts for the wealthy.

I'm sure many of those same people who decried the shifting of wealth through taxes, they themselves were getting more into debt and their wages not keeping up with inflation.

It's not possible that all those participants on a2k who claim to be conservatives are in the wealthy class. Can't be; that means only one thing; they've been completely brain-washed by the conservative rhetoric - even as they watched their own wealth disappear.

Amazing!



Amazing indeed! They're the ignorant, but blissful pawns of the master planners.
 

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