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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 10:41 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxie wrote:
Quote:
And my suggestion to you is If you don't like my posts don't read them.


That's your SOP; your last line of defense for things you say and can't defend. Why should we ignore you? We are here to challenge anyone who's statements are inconsistent and conflicting. If you can't see your own weakness in the way your bring forth your arguments, that's not 'OUR' problem.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 11:25 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Not wrong for a European I think though Okie. I am prepared to be corrected if I'm wrong, but I'm more and more convinced that we Americans define left and right differently than most Europeans do.


You. And okie.


What really surprises me that - by yours and okie's - right wing, totalitarian dictators are members of the extreme left.


Well, let it be so.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 11:35 am
@Walter Hinteler,
But the reason for that, Walter, is that a rightwinger here is for less government, not more, and for personal freedom and free trade as much as possible which would be impossible under a totalitarian dictator.

You referred me to Wikipedia for history on Marxism. Perhaps you would accept Wikipedia as at least a partial explanation here? I think it is awkwardly and incompletely explained as do apparently the Wiki overseers with their (edit) notation, but it does illustrate the different ways that different parts of the globe define the terms:

Excerpt
Quote:
Modern international use of the terms (left - right)[edit] Modern U.S. use of the terms

These terms are widely used in the modern United States, but as on the global level, there is no firm consensus about their meaning. The only aspect which is generally agreed upon is that they are the defining opposites of the United States political spectrum. "Left" and "right" in the U.S. are associated with "liberal" and "conservative," respectively, although the meanings of the two sets of terms do not entirely coincide. Depending on the political affiliation of the individual using them, these terms can be spoken with varying implications. A 2005 poll of 2,209 American adults showed that "respondents generally viewed the paired concepts liberals and left-wingers and conservatives and right-wingers as possessing, respectively, generally similar political beliefs", but also showed that around ten percent fewer respondents understood the terms "left" and "right" than understood the terms "liberal" and "conservative".[20]

The contemporary left in the United States is usually understood as a category including New Deal liberals, Rawlsian liberals, social democrats, and civil libertarians, and is generally identified with the Democratic Party. Due to the extensive pejorative use of the term liberal, some parts of the American left decided in the 1980s to begin using the term "progressive" instead. In general, left implies a commitment to egalitarianism, support for a 'liberal' social policy and multiculturalism. The contemporary left usually defines itself as promoting government regulation of business, commerce, and industry; protection of fundamental rights (especially freedom of speech and separation of church and state); and government intervention on behalf of racial, ethnic, and sexual minorities and the poor.

The contemporary right in the United States is understood to mainly include Republicans and religious conservatives. Although often in disagreement with religious conservatives, some classical liberals and libertarians define themselves as part of the right, and separate themselves from modern-day liberalism; libertarian David Kelley states that classical liberals had "a concept of freedom that is entirely at odds with the modern liberal conception".[21] However, many libertarians insist that libertarianism does not fit anywhere on the left-right spectrum, and people who tend to divide everything into those two categories are thinking in archaic terms. The American right is broadly defined by upholding a traditionalist understanding of constitutional law, opposition to governmental regulation of the economy and income redistribution, immigration control, and opposition to "reverse discrimination". These stances are motivated by traditional values (conservatism), protection of freedom and the rights of private individuals (libertarianism), or doubts about the benefits or efficacy of governmental regulation of the economy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-right_politics
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 11:37 am
@Walter Hinteler,
That's a total misreading of history.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  2  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 11:50 am
@Foxfyre,
Less government -- yeah right.

Cato Institute:


Republicans Become the Party of Big Government

by Chris Edwards and Tad DeHaven

Chris Edwards is director of fiscal policy and Tad DeHaven is a research assistant at the Cato Institute.

Added to cato.org on February 2, 2004



Even before the release of the new federal budget, President Bush's budget chief Josh Bolten has begun the damage control. On one flank, the president is trying to ward off the increasing despair in his conservative base caused by his huge spending increases and big deficits. On another flank, the mainstream media are beginning to run front-page stories on the administration's fiscal irresponsibility.

Bolten took to the opinion page of The Wall Street Journal in December to defend the administration's fiscal record. His excuses for high spending and deficits are not convincing. First, he says deficits have been caused by declining revenues from the sluggish economy. That was a good argument two years ago, but the economy is growing strongly again and the government should have made adjustments in response to the leaner revenue picture. When revenues fall, the government should cut spending to balance the books just as any business would do.

Chris Edwards is director of fiscal policy and Tad DeHaven is a research assistant at the Cato Institute.
More by Chris EdwardsMore by Tad DeHaven

The administration's other argument is that spending has been driven by defense and national security needs. That was also a good excuse for awhile, but the administration should have been working on reform ideas to cut domestic spending to offset defense increases. Defense is certainly a high-priority spending area, but the administration has not identified low-priority spending areas that could be cut. Indeed, Bush has signed every spending bill that crossed his desk while his veto pen has collected dust.

Bolten argues that the president hasn't vetoed a single spending bill because "he hasn't needed to." It's more likely that the president hasn't vetoed any spending bills because he hasn't wanted to. Each spending bill that has come to his desk has represented a new vote-buying opportunity, whether it was the big education bill in 2001, the big farm bill in 2002, or the even bigger Medicare prescription drug bill in 2003.

The drug bill is the largest entitlement expansion in 40 years. Its advertised price tag of $400 billion is actually a big understatement of the true cost. The Congressional Budget Office estimates that the bill could cost taxpayers as much as $2 trillion in its second decade because of the rapid increase in the number of elderly in future years. Besides, Senator Ted Kennedy called it only a "down payment" for future drug program expansions.

In stark contrast, the Republicans sought cuts to Medicare in the 1990s because they were rightly concerned that the program's cost will spin out of control when the baby boomer generation retires. Unfortunately, today's Republicans, led by Bush, have made the coming elderly spending time bomb that much more explosive.

After increasing 24 percent in the past three years, the budget is in desperate need of cuts to get federal finances under control. But cuts are not a policy option that the current White House considers very much. At the time of this writing the new budget figures are not available, but it looks like the administration will request a 3 percent increase next year for non-defense, non-entitlement programs. In some years, 3 percent may seem like a reasonable increase. But we currently have a roughly $450 billion deficit. Shouldn't the administration be calling at least for a freeze in federal spending to get the giant deficit under control?

In addition, the White House seems content to call for cutting the deficit in half in five years. That is remarkably timid. In the 1990s, the Republican Congress battled against all deficits and forced President Clinton to embrace a plan to completely eliminate the deficit over a period of years. Non-entitlement spending actual fell in 1996, a truly rare event in federal budgeting.

The administration's spin on today's fiscal situation is not very convincing. In the Journal op-ed, Bolten wrote:

In the last budget year of the previous administration (FY '01), domestic spending unrelated to defense or homeland security grew by an eye-popping 15%. With the adoption of President Bush's first budget (FY '02), that number was reduced to 6%; then 5% the following year; and now 3% for the current fiscal year.

The first thing to notice is that Bolten chooses to exclude at least four-fifths of the federal budget from his statistics. Federal spending is of two basic types: discretionary and entitlements. Discretionary spending is determined annually through the appropriations process and amounts to about two-fifths of the budget. Defense accounts for about half of discretionary.

The other three-fifths of the federal budget is interest and entitlement spending, chiefly Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid. Bolten leaves entitlement spending out of his figures. Entitlements are often said to be on autopilot because it takes a law change to reduce spending on them. As a consequence, politicians often act as if they aren't responsible for the rapid spending increases that occur in entitlements. For example, Medicaid spending has grown at an average 11 percent per year the last three years while the administration and Congress have looked the other way. In truth, Congress can cut entitlement spending anytime it wants. After all, Congress just changed the law to massively increase Medicare spending for the prescription drug bill.

Nonetheless, let's zero in on the one-fifth of the budget that is non-entitlement and non-defense. Bolten claims that the administration has been fiscally responsible in this area of spending. Actually, he carves even more spending out the equation, only looking at non-defense spending that is "unrelated to homeland security." It is on this small fraction of overall spending that Bolten says the administration has not overspent. But even here, the administration figures are suspect. Indeed, some areas like education spending have seen huge increases.

Politically, it must be frustrating for the Republicans who have worked hard in the past to cut government to see today's Republican president become one of the biggest spenders in decades. When the GOP gained control of Congress in 1994, they promised to eliminate the deficit and reduce wasteful spending. In their Contract with America in 1994, Republicans committed to "restoring fiscal responsibility to an out-of-control Congress, requiring them to live under the same budget constraints as families and businesses." For several years, they did modestly curtail spending growth, and they balanced the budget in 1998 for the first time since the 1960s.

The Republican emphasis on spending restraint at the time also seemed to move President Clinton to the political center. In his 1995 State of the Union message, Clinton proclaimed: "Let's change the government -- let's make it smaller, less costly and smarter -- leaner, not meaner." In his message for the 1996 budget, Clinton argued: "Except in emergencies, we cannot spend an additional dime on any program unless we cut it from another part of the budget."

In the 1990s, many Republicans tried to revive the emphasis on spending reform that had been an early focus of President Reagan. For example, Reagan fought to eliminate the departments of Education and Energy. In May 1995, the House approved a budget plan calling for the elimination of the departments of Education, Commerce, and Energy. At the time, the House determined that each of these departments was wasteful, ineffective, and unconstitutional. Indeed, the GOP presidential platform in 1996 stated: "The federal government has no constitutional authority to be involved in school curricula ... this is why we will abolish the Department of Education."

It's true that many of the budget cuts of Reagan and of the GOP in the mid-1990s did not last very long. But at least they were pushing in the right direction. By contrast, President Bush has sought large spending increases for the Department of Education, for example. Education outlays increased from $36 billion to $61 billion in just the last three years.

A sharp contrast is evident when comparing Reagan and Bush on spending. While both boosted defense outlays during their first three years in office, Reagan offset that increase with a 13 percent cut in real discretionary nondefense spending. By contrast, Bush has increased nondefense spending by more than 20 percent in real terms.

Reagan was not able to follow through on many of his cuts because of solid opposition by the Democratic House. In the 1990s, President Clinton was an obstacle to many cuts, despite his conservative rhetoric. But today, Republicans have the White House and a majority in Congress and should be moving ahead with these long-sought reforms.

Instead, they have moved in an anti-reform direction in many cases. For example, they have turned their back on past Republican efforts to reform agriculture subsidies. The farm bill signed into law by President Bush in 2002 represented a reversal of the Republican 1996 Freedom to Farm Act. The 1996 Act had sought to finally wean farmers off federal price supports and subsidies. But the new farm bill embraced price supports and boosted farm subsidies.

The culture of spending seems to have prevailed over the current Republican Party. In his initial budget plan in 2001, President Bush noted: "For too long, politics in Washington has been divided between those who wanted Big Government without regard to cost and those who wanted Small Government without regard to need." Three years later it is clear that Bush has embraced Big Government without regard to cost.

Looking ahead, Republicans need to rediscover the reforming spirit that they brought to Washington after the landmark 1994 congressional elections. For their part, fiscally conservative Democrats should challenge the big spending Republicans, and work to cut unneeded defense and non-defense programs. To begin getting the budget under control, an immediate freeze should be imposed on discretionary spending. That should be followed by eliminations of low-priority domestic programs, cutting waste in the defense budget, and implementing reforms to the elderly entitlements to diffuse the fiscal time bomb that is waiting to explode on the coming generation of young taxpayers
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 12:03 pm
@Lightwizard,
Perhaps you missed the opening post of this thread LW? The whole motive for discussing MACean (classical liberal) concepts was that the GOP under George W. Bush forgot many of those principles and THAT is why they were voted out of power in 2006 and took an additional beating in 2008.

If they haven't learned their lesson, we can look for Democratic rule for all elections in the foreseeable future. If Republicans are gong to behave as leftists, the people might as well vote for the real thing.

Our current President campaigned on being a bipartisan centrist. Unfortunately he is governing as a far leftist. It remains to be seen how much of his constituency who are not far leftists will tolerate of that before they begin voicing extreme displeasure with it.

We'll just have to see.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 12:17 pm
@Foxfyre,
Seems, foxfyre, your former antipathy for wikipedia now turns into love ...

Well, at least when you use it.


Okay. Let's look at this European chart (from an American website)

http://i42.tinypic.com/9sqtfn.jpg

Germany is postioned quite correct: a coalition of conservative and social-democratic parties ... ,.
Though the British Labour Party still says in their program that they are a socialist party - Blair and Brown moved them to the Right (like it was done with the German and other European social-democratic parties).

I'd positioned Austria a lot more to the right ... Belgium doesn't have a working government since months and months ... Interesting question would be where the Libertarian element in the Netherland's government is to be found ...



Wikipedia - your reference - says that "there is no firm consensus about their meaning" [left-right]. You and okie have tried to convince that your opinion is shared by all Americans.


Oh, well, I'll never learn this ... okie has been just on spot here ...
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 12:29 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
I still have no strong love for/confidence in Wikipedia, but others love it so I have acquiesced to some pressure there though I have always used it from time to time. Because I do not believe the scholarship is always unbiased and/or particularly careful, I would not be comfortable using Wiki as the only source for anything. But remember, it was YOU who referred me there for information during this line of discussion, and that's the only reason I used it to describe left/right as I thought you would be comfortable with the definitions there. (Okay, and it was also the quickest way to get the information--I did include a disclaimer with it.)

I think it is unfair to say "You and okie have tried to convince that your opinion is shared by all Americans." Have either of us ever said anything even remotedly like that? If I did I would like to retract the statement. I thought I had made it perfectly clear that I agree with Wikipedia that there is no clear consensus, especially among individual aspects contained within the broader categories.

Your graph also agrees with Wikipedia that European countries are 'right' of center. I think most Americans would describe European countries as 'left of center'. Anyone is certainly welcome to change my opinion about that however.

Where would you put the United States on that graph?
Lightwizard
 
  2  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 12:33 pm
@Foxfyre,
It started back with Reagan -- he did virtually nothing to reduce the size of government and through Bush I, it increased in size. Apparently, the so called conservative, neo-conservative, Republican, whatever, movement haven't done a thing for America.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 01:13 pm
@Lightwizard,
Ican put it back to enactment of the progressive income tax--1913 I believe that was. I usually put it back to FDR's New Deal which, while well intended, started the snowballs rolling that have become the huge entitlements that now eat up huge chunks of the GDP and Federal Budget.

When they rob Peter to pay Paul, they can count on the support of Paul andhave huge incentive to keep Paul happy.

What is mind boggling is that our current leaders do not seem to understand that there is absolutely no reason to think that new entitlements will not become the same unmanageable monstrosities. But do they care? Or are they simply continuing to buy votes from their constituents with lofty promises of goodies from the government teat and thereby keep themselves in power for now?

Us 'old timers' won't have to deal with that all that much. The younger ones though should be paying careful attention.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 01:14 pm
@ican711nm,
Quote:
Debra Law wrote:
LEFTWING WACKOS are defined as persons who would presume to force their ideology on the rest of us?

Your definition has no applicability in practice.


Liberals and others who are identified as being on the "LEFT" are the persons who work for the greater good to throw off the oppressive shackles that were imposed on individuals by the RIGHTWING WACKOS who would presume to force their ideology on everyone else.
Obama liberals are an excellent example of LEFTWING WACKOS. Obama Liberals are in fact trying to force their ideology on those of us who support the Constitution of the USA. They are trying to force us to start supporting, or at least stop resisting, the Obama Liberals' abandonment of the Constitution as legally amemded in accord with its Article V. Our Constitution is the one and only lawful explicit granting of powers to the Legislative, to the Executive, and to the Judicial branches of the federal government by the state legislatures of the USA. But the Obama Liberals assume powers that the Constitution does not grant them.

I have what I think is a more accurate name for LEFTWING WACKOS. I call 'em LEFTWING TRAITORS. They've taken an oath to support the Constitution, yet violate that oath almost daily. Their most egregious almost daily violation of the Constitution, is their forceful transfer of money from what some have lawfully earned to those who did not earn it.

Consequently, Obama Liberals must be impeached and removed from office in order to save our Constitutional Republic. All that is required to start the impeachment process is for the MACs in the House of representatives to make a motion to impeach the Obama Liberals from the government of the USA. Urge them to do exactly that before it is too late.
Quote:
Wisdom circa 1778:
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average of the world's greatest civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, and from dependency back to bondage."

0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 01:40 pm
@Foxfyre,
Wiki never claimed to be "unbiased." Anybody can edit articles on Wiki - including you to challenge what it says. Your assumption that Wiki makes you "uncomfortable" only shows your personal viewpoints as the one that's questionable.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 01:43 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I didn't say that Wiki made me uncomfortable. I said that I would be uncomfortable using Wiki as an only source.

I realize that's splitting hairs. But the distinction to me is important.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 01:46 pm
@Foxfyre,
Okay, it was "my" mistake, and I apologize. Split hairs all you want; you might be on the right side - once in awhile, and provides us an opportunity to reevaluate our statement.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 02:29 pm
The solution is not to repeatedly sound alarms and repeatedly give the reasons for those alarms. The solution is to impeach President Obama. He is continually transferring wealth from those who earned it to those who have not earned it. Nowhere in the Constitution has either the President, the Congress, or the Judiciary been granted the power to make such wealth transfers. They violate the “supreme law of the land.” They violate their oaths to support the Constitution"Article VI. They violate the 10th Amendment. They are traitors to the USA"Article III. Section 3. We have to convince those in the House of Representatives, who do not violate their oaths to support the Constitution, to make a motion to impeach President Obama. Failure to take that first step will guarantee the transformation of our country from a Constitutional Republic to a dictatorship.

Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 02:36 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
I think it is unfair to say "You and okie have tried to convince that your opinion is shared by all Americans." Have either of us ever said anything even remotedly like that?
okie definitely did. If I remember correctly, you said that according to modern definitions ...

Foxfyre wrote:
Your graph also agrees with Wikipedia that European countries are 'right' of center. I think most Americans would describe European countries as 'left of center'.
Well, the graph is the source for that wiki article's author.

Foxfyre wrote:
Where would you put the United States on that graph?
Right of Germany. About the same position as the UK.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 02:42 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
So you think the USA is 'right' of Germany? Could you explain what you see in the USA socioeconomic structure and/or government structure that would put it right of Germany?

(And this is bearing in mind that placing the USA to the right of Germany there would put it left of Germany here according to the way I think most Americans define left and right here.)

In other words, I guess I do see all or most European countries as being more socialist than the USA though we're definitely moving in that direction.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 03:00 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

In other words, I guess I do see all or most European countries as being more socialist than the USA though we're definitely moving in that direction.



Well, even our constitution is - according to your definitions - socialist.

We got "socialised health care" in the 1880's, introduced by - what was seen in those days and today - the most conservative chancellor any German government ever had, Bismarck.

You (personally, but many other Americans as well) called the conservative French governments and presidents socialists ...


There's no socialist government in Europe, by the way. (Okay, the UK's government is it. On paper.) Most countries have conservative governments or coalition governments with conservative/right party dominance.

Yes, we are all here left, no: right, wait ... it is left.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 03:11 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Perhaps we should understand what we each mean by socialism. When I say socialism I mean more social and economic egalitarianism than usually occurs with capitalism as well as state ownership of some or all means of production that would normally be done by the private sector in a capitalistic system. Or as I recall, Hitler didn't exactly seize the factories and private businesses, but did dictate what each would be expected to produce. (Again working from memory so I could be wrong about that.)

It is my perception that those European countries on your (Wiki's) graph are not 100% socialist because I think there are elements of capitalism and free trade in all those sociopolitical systems. But probably all probably do embrace more socialism than the MACeans would want in the USA.

Again I am open to having any of my perceptions changed if I have any of this wrong.
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 03:15 pm
@Foxfyre,
Being in bed but not owning the large corporations is part of fascism. Remind you of anything?
 

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