55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
genoves
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2009 03:27 pm
@Debra Law,
Foxfyre- Normally I would not say this, but I do not want to see you totally destroyed. Do you know who you are butting heads with?

DEBRA L A W!!! She is probably one of the most brilliant legal minds( named LAW) mind you.

There is no escaping her rigorous logic and her immense erudition concerning LAW. Please consider retreating from her incredible logic!
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2009 03:27 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Let's try one more time Cyclop. Please read Walter Williams essay. This is I think the fourth time I've posted either the whole essay with link or at least the link:
http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/articles/09/EconomicMiracle.htm

Please focus particularly on this paragraph quoted within the essay:
Quote:
Adam Smith, the father of economics, captured the essence of this wonderful human cooperation when he said, "He (the businessman) generally, indeed, neither intends to promote the public interest, nor knows how much he is promoting it. ... He intends only his own security; and by directing that industry in such a manner as its produce may be of the greatest value, he intends only his own gain." Adam Smith continues, "He is in this, as in many other cases, led by an invisible hand to promote an end which was no part of his intention. ... By pursuing his own interest he frequently promotes that of the society more effectually than when he really intends to promote it." And later he adds, "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest."


Williams uses the image of the supermarket and the can of tuna as a beautiful illustration of the principle Smith provides here.

And therefore, it is only for their own benefit that "publicly traded companies" have any incentive to care about their shareholders at all. I wonder if there is any possibility I could get you to understand that concept, because it is that simple principle that is behind this whole huge, impossible mess.

Perhaps you never accept gifts or opportunities handed to you and perhaps you are willing to work selflessly for the benefit of others with no expectation or hope of any kind of benefit for yourself. If so, great. But I suspect you are a minority of one.
genoves
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2009 03:32 pm
Foxfyre wrote:

I ran across this piece by Mr. Ritholz that supports just about everything I've said on this so far, however. I would love to sit down with him, one on one, to see if he would agree that without the CRA, it would have been much more difficult for Congress and the Clinton and Bush administrations to have botched this as badly as it has been done. He definitely lays the problem at the feet of the government that was the entity that could have prevented it, headed it off, or lessened the severity.

Quote:
MONDAY, SEPTEMBER 29, 2008
OTHER VOICES
A Memo Found in the Street
By BARRY L. RITHOLTZ

Uncle Sam the enabler.
To: Washington, D.C.
From: Wall Street
Re: Credit Crisis

Dear D.C.,

WOW, WE'VE MADE QUITE A MESS OF THINGS here on Wall Street: Fannie and Freddie in conservatorship, investment banks in the tank, AIG nationalized. Thanks for sending us your new trillion-dollar bailout.

We on Wall Street feel somewhat compelled to take at least some responsibility. We used excessive leverage, failed to maintain adequate capital, engaged in reckless speculation, created new complex derivatives. We focused on short-term profits at the expense of sustainability. We not only undermined our own firms, we destabilized the financial sector and roiled the global economy, to boot. And we got huge bonuses.

But here's a news flash for you, D.C.: We could not have done it without you. We may be drunks, but you were our enablers: Your legislative, executive, and administrative decisions made possible all that we did. Our recklessness would not have reached its soaring heights but for your governmental incompetence.

THIS MEMO PROVIDES A BRIEF HISTORY OF your actions that helped create this crisis.

1997: Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan's famous "irrational exuberance" speech in 1996 was somehow ignored by, um, Fed Chairman Greenspan. The Fed missed the opportunity to change margin requirements. Had the Fed acted, the bubble would not have inflated as much, and the subsequent crash would not have been as severe.

1998: Long Term Capital Management was undercapitalized, used enormous amounts of leverage to purchase all manner of thinly traded, hard-to-value paper. It failed, and under the authority of the Federal Reserve a "private-sector" rescue plan was cobbled together. Had these bankers suffered big losses from LTCM, they might have thought twice before jumping into the exact same business model of undercapitalized, overleveraged, thinly traded, hard-to-value paper. Instead, they reaffirmed Benjamin Disraeli's famous aphorism: "What we learn from history is that we do not learn from history."

1999: The Financial Services Modernization Act repealed Glass-Steagall, a law that had separated the commercial-banking industry from Wall Street, and the two industries, plus insurance, came together again. Banks became bigger, clumsier, and hard to manage. Apparently, risk-management became all but impossible, even as banks had greater access to larger pools of capital.

2000: The Commodities Futures Modernization Act defined financial commodities such as "interest rates, currency prices, and stock indexes" as "excluded commodities." They could trade off the futures exchanges, with minimal oversight by the Commodity Futures Trading Commission. Neither the Securities and Exchange Commission, nor the Federal Reserve, nor any state insurance regulators had the ability to supervise or regulate the writing of credit-default swaps by hedge funds, investment banks or insurance companies.

2001-'03: Alan Greenspan's Fed dropped federal-fund rates to 1%. Lulled into a false belief that inflation was not a problem, the Fed then kept rates at 1% for more than a year. This set off an inflationary spiral in housing, and a desperate hunt for yield by fixed-income managers.

2003-'07: The Federal Reserve failed to use its supervisory and regulatory authority over banks, mortgage underwriters and other lenders, who abandoned such standards as employment history, income, down payments, credit rating, assets, property loan-to-value ratio and debt-servicing ability. The borrower's ability to repay these mortgages was replaced with the lender's ability to securitize and repackage them.

2004: The SEC waived its leverage rules. Previously, broker/dealer net-capital rules limited firms to a maximum debt-to-net-capital ratio of 12 to 1. This 2004 exemption allowed them to exceed this leverage rule. Only five firms -- Goldman Sachs, Merrill Lynch, Lehman Brothers, Bear Stearns and Morgan Stanley -- were granted this exemption; they promptly levered up 20, 30 and even 40 to 1.

2005-'07: Unscrupulous home appraisers found that they could attract more business by inflating appraisals. Intrinsic value was ignored, so referrals kept coming in. This helped borrowers obtain financing at prices that were increasingly unsupportable. When honest appraisers petitioned both Congress and the bureaucracy to intervene in the widespread fraud, neither branch of government acted.

THERE'S ACTUALLY A LOT MORE we could add to these items. We could mention impotent supervision of Fannie and Freddie by the Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight; the negligent oversight on ratings agencies; the Boskin Commission's monkeying around with how inflation gets measured; the "Greenspan Put," etc.

We could mention former Fed Governor Edward Gramlich, who warned about making home loans to people who could not afford them, and who said the runaway subprime-mortgage industry would create problems in housing and the credit markets. But Gramlich was up against a Fed chairman who apparently believed that markets can regulate themselves. (Gramlich died last year, three months after the housing bubble started to deflate.)

We on Wall Street do not deny our part. We created these securities, we rated them triple-A, we traded them without understanding them. Now that they have gone bad, we are real close to getting the rest of the country to take them off our hands.

Thanks, D.C. None of this would have been possible without you.
http://online.barrons.com/article/SB122246742997580395.html
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2009 03:33 pm
@genoves,
genoves wrote:

Foxfyre- Normally I would not say this, but I do not want to see you totally destroyed. Do you know who you are butting heads with?

DEBRA L A W!!! She is probably one of the most brilliant legal minds( named LAW) mind you.

There is no escaping her rigorous logic and her immense erudition concerning LAW. Please consider retreating from her incredible logic!


Yeah I know. But I'll risk being destroyed. I go toe to toe with Debra every now and then and once had the extreme pleasure of being allied with her. She knows her stuff. Too bad it is so warped by what appears to be such blind prejudice sometimes.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2009 03:36 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Let's try one more time Cyclop. Please read Walter Williams essay. This is I think the fourth time I've posted either the whole essay with link or at least the link:
http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/articles/09/EconomicMiracle.htm

Please focus particularly on this paragraph quoted within the essay:
Quote:
Adam Smith, the father of economics, captured the essence of this wonderful human cooperation when he said, "He (the businessman) generally, indeed, neither intends to promote the public interest, nor knows how much he is promoting it. ... He intends only his own security; and by directing that industry in such a manner as its produce may be of the greatest value, he intends only his own gain." Adam Smith continues, "He is in this, as in many other cases, led by an invisible hand to promote an end which was no part of his intention. ... By pursuing his own interest he frequently promotes that of the society more effectually than when he really intends to promote it." And later he adds, "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest."


Williams uses the image of the supermarket and the can of tuna as a beautiful illustration of the principle Smith provides here.

And therefore, it is only for their own benefit that "publicly traded companies" have any incentive to care about their shareholders at all. I wonder if there is any possibility I could get you to understand that concept, because it is that simple principle that is behind this whole huge, impossible mess.

Perhaps you never accept gifts or opportunities handed to you and perhaps you are willing to work selflessly for the benefit of others with no expectation or hope of any kind of benefit for yourself. If so, great. But I suspect you are a minority of one.


Lol.

Your mistake is in believing that AIG was acting in the best interests of their company, the shareholders, anyone but the top executives who took home the big paychecks. They were not doing so. They were making stupid and short-sighted decisions that benefited an extremely tiny group of people and screwed the entire nation. For you to hold this up as proper or desirable behavior is a ******* joke.

When the butcher in question starts to care more about his well-being than he does about your safety, that's a real problem Fox, for the consumers, for his business, his employees, everyone - but him in the short run.

What you call 'gifts' or 'opportunities' were neither. It was criminal behavior, brought about b/c there was NO regulation of the CDswap market - and by the way, there never was any regulation of this market, ever, it wasn't a relaxing of rules, it just didn't used to exist - and it impacted everyone. You still don't seem to see that short-term greed is THE primary force behind our current woes.

From the WSJ -

Quote:


"The Wall Street compensation system has evolved from the 1970s, when most of the firms were private partnerships, owned by partners who paid out a designated share of the firm's profits to nonpartner employees while dividing up the rest for themselves. The nonpartners had to earn their keep every year, but the partners' percentage ownerships in the firms were also reset every year or two. On the whole, everyone's performance was continuously evaluated and rewarded or penalized. The system provided great incentives to create profits, but also, because the partners' own money was involved, to avoid great risk."


In Adam Smith's time, when the companies failed, the executives usually failed right along with it. Now, the execs go home and go to sleep on their piles of cash. They could give a damn if the company fails. This has lead to unmitigated greed and unacceptable risk. The Williams essay has nothing to do with our modern era, for it basically misunderstands the problems we face.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2009 03:36 pm
And now folks, as the liberals have all gone nuts and are into their trolling mode again, I'll go find something else to do until they calm down. Boy you can sure tell when you've pulled their chains, can't you? But at least that's one good barometer to know that we are winning. The more they pull out the personal insults, the more I know they don't have anything else to offer. Smile
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2009 03:39 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

And now folks, as the liberals have all gone nuts and are into their trolling mode again, I'll go find something else to do until they calm down. Boy you can sure tell when you've pulled their chains, can't you? Smile


If by 'pulled their chains,' you mean 'forced them to make a fool out of Foxfyre, yet again,' then I'm afraid I must agree.

I can't imagine what it must be like to go through life with the level of intellectual dishonesty that you display continually, Fox. The dissonance it creates would kill me. But I suspect you don't even notice, b/c you've never experienced anything else.

Cycloptichorn
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2009 03:43 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
But oh, I can answer the question. I have actually many times over the course of this thread.


Many times? Then it should be easy for you to locate one. Give us a link to a post in this thread where you have provided a practical, real life example of the stellar workings of conservative principles.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2009 03:55 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Foxie is a special case of irreducible MAC; she doesn't know how many times she contradicts her own statements. That she's comfortable with such a label as "MAC" shows us that she has no idea there ain't no such animal on this planet. We are all a combination of many things, and politics and politicians has no clear definition even when they identify themselves as a "democrat" or "republican." The fact that so many have told us that Bush is not a conservative proves this point. That several posters agree with her about the definition of MACs shows how deception works for so many who think they know something special. Her self-deception is now legendary; she's proven herself as her own worst enemy.

All of Foxies' proofs and evidence just happened to disappear after she's told us so many times she's posted them two and three times.... Like magic.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2009 04:00 pm
@Debra Law,

[quote="Debra Law"]Conservatives merely pay lip service to the rights of others. In practice, conservatives insist on passing laws for the purpose of imposing their values on everyone else in society.

MRCs insist on passing laws for the purpose of imposing their values on everyone else in society. Among these laws are laws which violate the Constitution of the USA--"the supreme law of the land." For example, they violate the 10th Amendment by claiming the federal government has more power than the Constitution as amended has granted it.

MACs insist that laws that do not conform to the powers granted the federal Government by the Constitution not be passed.

MACs = Modern American Conservatives

MRCs = MALs & RINOs & CINOs
MALs = Modern American Liberals
RINOs = Republicans In Name Only
CINOs = Conservatives In Name Only


They refuse to acknowledge that a woman has an inalienable right to decide for herself whether to bear and beget children.

MACs believe that the objective of the federal government ought to be to secure the inalienable rights of humans to life, Liberty, and the purpose og government.

When does a fetus become a human? Some MACs say it's when they are conceived. Some say it's when they are fully formed humans in the uterus. Some say it's at the moment birth begins, Others say it's not until the baby's umbilical cord is cut.


They refuse to acknowledge that homosexuals have equal rights under the law.

MACs believe homosexuals have equal rights under the law with the exception of a right to marriage. However, MACs generally agree that homosexuals have a right to form partnerships exactly like marriage except that it not be called marriage. For example, call it pairage instead.

They refuse to acknowledge that others have a right to be free of religion in the public sector.

NO ONE has the right to be free of religion in the public sector. Granting them such right deprives others of their right to practice their religion in the public sector. The 1st Amendment says:

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Do not fail to understand: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press,


They refuse to acknowledge that workers have a right to unionize and bargain for better wages and working conditions.

MACs willingly and openly "acknowledge that workers have a right to unionize and bargain for better wages and working conditions."

MACs are opposed to forced unionism, that is, unionism that is establish by YES VOTES obtained by means of coersion. For example, MACs are opposed to non-secret ballots.


The list is endless. Conservatives SAY one thing, they DO the opposite. Their actions speak louder than their meaningless talk.

Please name and quote the conservatives on this thread that you think say one thing and do another.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2009 04:06 pm
@Debra Law,
Okay, I've got a couple of minutes left.

My husband and I run a small business out of our home. For the most part the work is fairly easy and pleasant and we don't mind doing it. Because we provide a service that others are willing to pay for, we receive a fair compensation for the work performed.

Do we do this work for the benefit of our clients? No. We do it for our benefit. The fact that it DOES benefit our clients is why they are willing to pay us. If we were not getting paid, we would not do the work and would not care whether our clients were benefitted or not. The amount we are benefitted is directly related and tied to the benefit to the clients that we service.

That is the whole principle behind laizze-faire economics, a MACean principle that when people are left to work out means of looking to their own interests, benefit to others is incidentally produced and this spiders out to a magnificent and sustainable unseen process by which every person is benefitting everybody else simply by looking to their own interests. If any component of that is sidetracked or compromised or imprudently artifically controlled however, the ripple effect is far reaching and a large chunk or even the whole thing can come crashing down.

The only role that government needs to take is to enact enough laws and regulation to prevent us from doing violence to each other.

Cyclops recent post demonstrated that he is incapable of understanding this. Are you?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2009 04:16 pm
@Foxfyre,
Your so-called "business," doesn't prove anything about "
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2009 04:21 pm
@Foxfyre,
Your so-called "business," doesn't prove anything about "laizze-faire economics."

This is from the Business Dictionary:

Quote:
By the mid 19th century, opposition to laissez-faire economics began and governments in all industrialized countries intervened on behalf of workers and general population. Factory laws and consumer protection laws were enacted and growth of monopolies was checked. Early 20th century saw breakup of monopolies in the US and (after Second World War) nationalization of essential industries and services in Europe. Keynesian economics (which advocates government intervention in the national economy) further undermined it, a process spurred by the great depression of 1930s. From 1970's, however, the pendulum swung back to laissez-faire economics (renamed 'market economy' or 'free enterprise') and brought deregulation of business, and progressive removal of trade barriers, which is continuing.


Essentially, the correct definition tells us today that "free enterprise" without government intervention pretty much created the financial crisis we are now experiencing.

Hey, Foxie, do you ever get anything right?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2009 04:39 pm
Quote:

http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/articles/09/EconomicMiracle.htm
A MINORITY VIEW

BY WALTER E. WILLIAMS

RELEASE: WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 18, 2009 AND THEREAFTER

Economic Miracle

The idea that even the brightest person or group of bright people, much less the U.S. Congress, can wisely manage an economy has to be the height of arrogance and conceit. Why? It is impossible for anyone to possess the knowledge that would be necessary for such an undertaking. At the risk of boring you, let's go through a small example that proves such knowledge is impossible.

Imagine you are trying to understand a system consisting of six elements. That means there would be 30, or n(n-1), possible relationships between these elements. Now suppose each element can be characterized by being either on or off. That means the number of possible relationships among those elements grows to the number 2 raised to the 30th power; that's well over a billion possible relationships among those six elements.

Our economic system consists of billions of different elements that include members of our population, businesses, schools, parcels of land and homes. A list of possible relationships defies imagination and even more so if we include international relationships. Miraculously, there is a tendency for all of these relationships to operate smoothly without congressional meddling. Let's think about it.

The average well-stocked supermarket carries over 60,000 different items. Because those items are so routinely available to us, the fact that it is a near miracle goes unnoticed and unappreciated. Take just one of those items -- canned tuna. Pretend that Congress appoints you tuna czar; that's not totally out of the picture in light of the fact that Congress has recently proposed a car czar for our auto industry. My question to you as tuna czar is: Can you identify and tell us how to organize all of the inputs necessary to get tuna out of the sea and into a supermarket? The most obvious inputs are fishermen, ships, nets, canning factories and trucks. But how do you organize the inputs necessary to build a ship, to provide the fuel, and what about the compass? The trucks need tires, seats and windshields. It is not a stretch of the imagination to suggest that millions of inputs and people cooperate with one another to get canned tuna to your supermarket.

But what is the driving force that explains how millions of people manage to cooperate to get 60,000 different items to your supermarket? Most of them don't give a hoot about you and me, some of them might hate Americans, but they serve us well and they do so voluntarily. The bottom line motivation for the cooperation is people are in it for themselves; they want more profits, wages, interest and rent, or to use today's silly talk -- people are greedy.

Adam Smith, the father of economics, captured the essence of this wonderful human cooperation when he said, "He (the businessman) generally, indeed, neither intends to promote the public interest, nor knows how much he is promoting it. ... He intends only his own security; and by directing that industry in such a manner as its produce may be of the greatest value, he intends only his own gain." Adam Smith continues, "He is in this, as in many other cases, led by an invisible hand to promote an end which was no part of his intention. ... By pursuing his own interest he frequently promotes that of the society more effectually than when he really intends to promote it." And later he adds, "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest."

If you have doubts about Adam Smith's prediction, ask yourself which areas of our lives are we the most satisfied and those with most complaints. Would they be profit motivated arenas such supermarkets, video or clothing stores, or be nonprofit motivated government-operated arenas such as public schools, postal delivery or motor vehicle registration? By the way, how many of you would be in favor of Congress running our supermarkets?

Walter E. Williams is a professor of economics at George Mason University. To find out more about Walter E. Williams and read features by other Creators Syndicate writers and cartoonists, visit the Creators Syndicate Web page at www.creators.com.

COPYRIGHT 2009 CREATORS SYNDICATE, INC..


The motivation of MALRINOCINOs is to rule America, NOT improve individual freedom in America. These people oppose competition because they are so consumed with the envy desease, that they resent those who accomplish more than they do. They would rather equalize all our results than equalize our freedom to individually strive to excel and achieve more than some, but probably less than others..

Quote:
...
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house; thou shall not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his man servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is thy neighbour’s.


Note: MRCs = MALs & RINOs & CINOs.

0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2009 05:30 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre, I did ask this question here:

old europe wrote:
As per the link you posted earlier, in 1999, the Financial Services Modernization Act repealed Glass-Steagall. Glass-Steagall was a law that had separated the commercial-banking industry from Wall Street, a limitation on free financial markets. Repealing Glass-Steagall therefore was an act of deregulation, allowing for more market freedom.

Would repealing Glass-Steagall therefore constitue an act that "MACs" advocate?


I think that's a very reasonable question, as the answer would provide an idea of what you think the "MAC principles" you keep advocating would mean in real life.

If that's not a discussion you want to have, you can simply say so.

However, simply ignoring the question and answering with a barrage counter-questions does not, in my opinion, constitute an answer. That's what I meant by "quid pro quo".

don't see where you've answered
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2009 05:34 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:
MACs insist that laws that do not conform to the powers granted the federal Government by the Constitution not be passed.


Strawman response. Most Americans -- liberals, conservatives, democrats, republicans, et al. -- "insist" on compliance with the Constitution.

Conservatives, however, have proven themselves over and over again to be hypocrites. At the same time they're insisting on compliance with the constitution, they're violating the constitution.

Debra Law wrote:
They refuse to acknowledge that a woman has an inalienable right to decide for herself whether to bear and beget children.


ican711nm wrote:
MACs believe that the objective of the federal government ought to be to secure the inalienable rights of humans to life, Liberty, and the purpose og government.

When does a fetus become a human? Some MACs say it's when they are conceived. Some say it's when they are fully formed humans in the uterus. Some say it's at the moment birth begins, Others say it's not until the baby's umbilical cord is cut.


Silly you. Even staunch-Catholic SC Justice Scalia, in an interview with Leslie Stahl of 60 Minutes, acknowledges the following:

"My job is to interpret the Constitution accurately. And indeed, there are anti-abortion people who think that the constitution requires a state to prohibit abortion. They say that the Equal Protection Clause requires that you treat a helpless human being that's still in the womb the way you treat other human beings. I think that's wrong. I think when the Constitution says that persons are entitled to equal protection of the laws, I think it clearly means walking-around persons."

LINK

Explain why conservatives pay lip service to individual rights and "insist" on compliance with the constitution and--at the same time--they "insist" on taking away the individual rights of women to determine their own procreative destinies and to pass UNCONSTITUTIONAL laws banning abortion?

Explanation = HYPOCRISY. Say one thing; do the opposite.

Debra Law wrote:
They refuse to acknowledge that homosexuals have equal rights under the law.


ican711nm wrote:
MACs believe homosexuals have equal rights under the law with the exception of a right to marriage.


Explain why conservatives pay lip service to individual rights and equal protection under the law while they're simultaneously carving out exceptions?

Could it be explained by HYPOCRISY? AGAIN?

I'm seeing a pattern here.

Debra Law wrote:
They refuse to acknowledge that others have a right to be free of religion in the public sector.


ican711nm wrote:
NO ONE has the right to be free of religion in the public sector. Granting them such right deprives others of their right to practice their religion in the public sector....


Everyone has a right secured by the Constitution to convert public property and government buildings into places of worship and religious shrines? I didn't know that. Thanks for the education. Rolling Eyes

If what you're saying is true and everyone has a right to practice their religion in the public sector, why did the Supreme Court rule against the Summum? Why were the Summum deprived of the equal right to place a religious monument on public property when others were allowed to do so?

Who can use public property to shove their religious views down other people's throats and who can't? I'm confused by your "conservative" policy on religion in the public sphere.

Debra Law wrote:
They refuse to acknowledge that workers have a right to unionize and bargain for better wages and working conditions.


ican711nm wrote:
MACs willingly and openly "acknowledge that workers have a right to unionize and bargain for better wages and working conditions."

MACs are opposed to forced unionism, that is, unionism that is establish by YES VOTES obtained by means of coersion. For example, MACs are opposed to non-secret ballots.


Oh. Then why did the conservatives demand on busting the unions in the automaking industry?

"Conservatives" want the greed mongers to prosper--they don't want workers to prosper. After all, every dollar paid to a worker is a dollar less in the greed monger's pocket. "Conservatives" want "capitalists" to have a large pool of cheap labor in order to maximize profit.

PROFIT is the GOD that "conservatives" worship far more religiously than they worship the Christian God. In other words, the GREED MONGERS use "conservatism" as the means to whip the social hypocrites into a frenzy and to get them out to vote for the candidates who will feed the GREED mongers from the government trough.

"Conservatives" want the greed mongers to get all the cheese--they don't want the workers or the poor people to get any cheese. God forbid that some poor child might get fed and housed on tax dollars--oh no! You working slobs ought to be outraged that your tax dollars are being used to support the worthless scum of society. You should vote for the candidates of GREED . . . yeah, baby! "Conservatism" all the way, man!


Debra Law wrote:
The list is endless. Conservatives SAY one thing, they DO the opposite. Their actions speak louder than their meaningless talk.


ican711nm wrote:
Please name and quote the conservatives on this thread that you think say one thing and do another.


NAMES: YOU, Foxfyre.

QUOTES: All of them. Every discussion we have ever had denotes the hypocrisy of your conservative "say one thing, do the opposite" ideology.
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2009 05:43 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
Call that greed if you wish, but few of us fail to take free gifts, no strings attached, that are handed to us. And even if we know that there is the possibility that the gift is rotten within, the chance that it might be a good gift makes it difficult to refuse it.


I find these two sentences to be amazing, for they display a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation.

To begin, AIG and the companies who bought their CDswaps knew that it wasn't a free gift; they knew there were strings attached. They just didn't care. They didn't save any money to pay off the insurances they were selling, and they knew that. It led to billions of dollars of quick profit for them and for the companies who did business with them.

Then, when the whole thing went belly-up, the taxpayer was on the hook, and they knew that would happen as well. After all, AIG was 'too big to fail.' So the executives made dozens of millions while dooming the country to a recession. Knowingly.



That was pretty much the point I was making, and the one that was also made in the Wall Street Journal article that I posted earlier and in the NYT article you've linked to.

AIG decided to get into the subprime mortgage market not because they didn't know that it was a high risk sector or, as Foxfyre puts it, "that there is the possibility" that the subprime mortgage market was a high risk sector. No. They decided to bet billions of dollars on a sector that was known to be high risk, all in the name of short term profit.

Describing multi-billion dollar investments in the high risk subprime mortgage sector as "free gifts, no strings attached" - that is bold.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2009 05:44 pm
@Debra Law,
amen - a few hundred times for all the times they say one thing and does another; your list explained them very well. Hypocrisy and denial are the conservatives' forked tongue speak.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2009 06:14 pm
@old europe,
old europe wrote:

Foxfyre, I did ask this question here:

old europe wrote:
As per the link you posted earlier, in 1999, the Financial Services Modernization Act repealed Glass-Steagall. Glass-Steagall was a law that had separated the commercial-banking industry from Wall Street, a limitation on free financial markets. Repealing Glass-Steagall therefore was an act of deregulation, allowing for more market freedom.

Would repealing Glass-Steagall therefore constitue an act that "MACs" advocate?


I think that's a very reasonable question, as the answer would provide an idea of what you think the "MAC principles" you keep advocating would mean in real life.

If that's not a discussion you want to have, you can simply say so.

However, simply ignoring the question and answering with a barrage counter-questions does not, in my opinion, constitute an answer. That's what I meant by "quid pro quo".

don't see where you've answered


I didn't. I was tired of being asked question after question with nothing but antagonistic and/or snotty and/or insulting comments from your side and no contribution to the discussion. I thought it appropriate that you participate in the debate before I acquiesced to any more of your questions. So I agreed to answer that question after you answered mine. Not that I believed you would ever participate in the debate by providing your own original opinion as the MO of most of the liberals here seems to be spouting contempt for anything conservative and that's all they generally have to offer. You have to be able to understand a concept in order to debate it. If you can't understand it, all you can do is insult it. Your MO in the past is to go through this routine until I turn it on you, then you feign some excuse that it isn't worth your time or you find me insulting or whatever, and you take off for the tall grass.

So the offer is still open. You can answer my questions or not. If you do, then we might be able to have a discussion. Until then, no.
Debra Law
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2009 06:16 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Okay, I've got a couple of minutes left.

My husband and I run a small business out of our home. . . .

That is the whole principle behind laizze-faire economics, a MACean principle that when people are left to work out means of looking to their own interests, benefit to others is incidentally produced and this spiders out to a magnificent and sustainable unseen process by which every person is benefitting everybody else simply by looking to their own interests. If any component of that is sidetracked or compromised or imprudently artifically controlled however, the ripple effect is far reaching and a large chunk or even the whole thing can come crashing down.

The only role that government needs to take is to enact enough laws and regulation to prevent us from doing violence to each other.

Cyclops recent post demonstrated that he is incapable of understanding this. Are you?



My husband and I own a business too. If we couldn't support ourselves with the business, we wouldn't be engaged in running it. We would find something else to do. So what? That's neither a liberal concept nor a conservative concept.

In the absence of government regulation, if YOU buy a truckload of toxic waste that may potentially ruin our country, YOU'RE going to sell it for a profit because that's what your "MACean laizze-faire economics" is all about.

Your self-serving ode to "MACean laizze-faire economics" falls on deaf ears because it was the LACK of government regulation that allowed the GREED MONGERS to destroy our country's economic well-being. In other words, GREED is not always a good thing.

Are YOU capable of understanding that?





 

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