@genoves,
Quote:Less than 1% of the graduates of a LAW SCHOOL end up being professors at the law school they graduated from. MOST law school graduates go on to practice law!!
Now, that's highly pertinent. Thank you, G.
Hail to those who are capable of looking at all sides of an issue and discussing it thoroughly and with an open mind. Unfortunately some seem to think personal insults, ad hominem, and juvenile schoolyard taunts express thoughtfulness, intelligence, and competent debate.
@parados,
Say it ain't so, Parados. I've got reams of paper, all hand transcribed notes of Ican's postings on constitutional law and now you go and do this.
Surely, that decision was overturned or the USSC justices were collectively having a bad day and they later said, "Enough already, we were joking".
@Foxfyre,
Quote:...express thoughtfulness, intelligence, and competent debate.
Consider some of the things you, Okie, Ican, ... write, in this very light, Foxy.
This normally surfaces right about this time, when you start to discern that your "arguments" sound pretty shallow.
It's your equivalent of a caffeine boost.
@Foxfyre,
Quote:)
The answer is in the links I posted this morning while I don't accept your opinion that ALL banks are in trouble. All the banks are inter-related via the Federal Reserve and all banks that bought Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac bundled loans incurred the debt, sometimes knowingly, sometimes unknowingly, but all banks were not careless and/or didn't bow to government pressure though all the big banks received the same pressures.

you really don't understand this at all, do you? This is factually incorrect. Completely.
Do you even understand a CDO is? What a Tranche is? What the credit-default swap market is? How do you think these financial trading houses got their hands into
mortgages, something they traditionally didn't do? You think the government
forced them to do that?
Unbelievable!
Cycloptichorn
@Cycloptichorn,
Okay educate me. Explain these things and how you see them as contrary to what I said. Do be prepared to back up your opinion however.
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
Okay educate me. Explain these things and how you see them as contrary to what I said. Do be prepared to back up your opinion however.
Let me start by assessing your knowledge: do you really think the government forced companies like JP Morgan, Bear Stearns, and Lehman Brothers - just to name a few - to have anything at all to do with mortgages? How do you think these financial trading companies got involved in the notoriously volatile mortgage market?
Cycloptichorn
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
Quote:...express thoughtfulness, intelligence, and competent debate.
Consider some of the things you, Okie, Ican, ... write, in this very light, Foxy.
This normally surfaces right about this time, when you start to discern that your "arguments" sound pretty shallow.
It's your equivalent of a caffeine boost.
I am fully prepared to defend anything I write by either explaining why I think what I think or providing support for my opinion. I enjoy expanding my sphere of knowledge through intelligent discussion and debate. If somebody can show me that I am in error, I acknowledge that, but I don't see any reason to believe somebody knows any more than I do just because they make unlinked, unsupported insults.
Can you defend what you write? Have you ever? Or do you get your rocks off trolling or taking insulting jabs at other members because a few numbnuts who rarely demonstrate an original thought of any kind will pat you on the back when you do that?
@Cycloptichorn,
Nope. Let's hear your definition of the terms you used and how they relate to/dispute anything I said first. Show me that you have a clue about what you're talking about.
Mainstream economists agree that FDR's big mistake was attacking the depression half-heartedly. Thus, Obama is attacking full force. A piece in the Huffington Post states, in part, :
********
What does this tell us about what the response to the crash of '08 should be?
It should be whole-hearted. Not half-hearted.
We should not fear high taxes, deficits, or government spending.
Provided - provided - that we will be producing something of serious economic benefit.
This is not a war against a foreign power. It is an effort against the problems of our own economy.
We have to determine what those problems are and what they are not.
They are not the sub prime crises or the housing bubble. Those are symptoms.
There are two real problems.
One is our faith in free markets to the degree that it is magical thinking. Markets are never free (in that ideal, magical way), they are never honest by themselves, they are never far-sighted, and they don't supply everything that either a strong economy or a healthy society needs.
If there is an advantage, a greater profit, to be had through fraud, deception, excessive risk taking, collusion and monopoly, diversion of funds, failure to live up to contracts, bribing, buying or influencing governments (which are the only, and necessary, check on fraud, deception and all the rest), some members of the business community will engage in them. They will, at least in the short run, and often in the long run, out perform their more honest competitors.
There are things we need for economic health that established business have battled tooth and nail and will continue to fight until their death and ours.
The second is that in the last seven years we have come to the crisis point of a long term trend. We crossed the line from being a producing economy to being a credit economy.
This is an unsustainable condition.
It is also a consequence of the underlying philosophical proposition that free markets create the best of all possible worlds.
The goal must be to transform America into an economy that produces more than it consumes.
The question is how to do that?
Oddly enough, the solutions that have been proposed are on the right track.
1. Invest in infrastructure.
Expenditures on infrastructure become an invisible subsidy for all other business. They make all other business cheaper, faster, easier and more efficient.
Expenditures on infrastructure, for the most part, cannot be outsourced.
2. Energy independence.
Imported oil normally accounts for about a third of the US trade deficit.
The way to end that is to produce our own energy and to consume less energy.
The question is how? The green answers are wind, solar, tidal energy, possibly geo-thermal. These are infrastructure intensive. The primary cost is building machinery, setting it up and then building efficient transmission lines. Money that we spend on oil pours out of America just like dumping it down a sewer. Money spent on infrastructure stays in town.
Then there's "clean" coal and nuclear. There's lots of literature that says both are feasible. I don't know who paid for it. The problem is to include all the costs - the environmental destruction - and actual, effective regulation. Theoretically, both are easily solved. In the real world, it has proved to be unlikely.
3. National health.
The private health care we now is the worst of all possible worlds for a modern, westernized society. Its bureaucratic, wasteful, and it rations care. Its far and away the most expensive system. It sends money to non-productive places. It make American business non-competitive.
4. Government goal setting for business and technology.
The glory of free market capitalism is that it is innovative. Thousands, even hundreds of thousands of different people come up with new ideas and try them out. Most fail, a few are wild successes. That won't go away. Imagination, ambition, greed, innovation, will remain.
There are lots of things wrong with central planning.
One is that it "distorts" the economy. Compared to what? To imaginary free markets? Probably. To where we are now? Unlikely. Can it be worse? Probably not.
The second is that it stifles innovation. Compared to what? Innovation in financial instruments? Clearly, the market, left to itself, did not produce alternative energy, popular, efficient American cars, pleasurable mass transit, a new electrical grid, a solution to the obesity epidemic, a reduction in the prison population, and a host of other things.
We have a choice. Go to war for our economic future and well being.
Or muddle along with half measures, lost in a fog of pseudo-free market theology, and let ourselves be drained by our own parasites and plundered by the more driven, forward thinking, and committed.
Larry Beinhart is the author of Wag the Dog, The Librarian, and Fog Facts: Searching for Truth in the Land of Spin. All available at nationbooks.org
How about a link Advocate? Because so many are either bogus or from unsupportable sources, I generally don't read long unlinked cuts and pastes no matter who posts them unless the member provides a plausible reason for why a link is not available.
TIP to those who like long cuts and pastes: In addition to the link, please break them up into separated paragraphs, highlight subtitles, etc. to make them easier to read. It's tough addressing a long gray blob of type with no clue as to what might be in it.
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
Nope. Let's hear your definition of the terms you used and how they relate to/dispute anything I said first. Show me that you have a clue about what you're talking about.
Haha, Fox. Do you believe I have anything to prove in this area to you or anyone?
The financial trading houses got into the CDO market, b/c it made them tons of money on paper while the market for housing kept rising.
Nobody forced them to do it. It was their greed and desire to make money on paper which led them to voluntarily buy into the mortgage market. No government agent forced any trading house to do anything having to do with mortgages.
Cycloptichorn
@Foxfyre,
Quote:TIP to those who like long cuts and pastes: In addition to the link, please break them up into separated paragraphs, highlight subtitles, etc. to make them easier to read. It's tough addressing a long gray blob of type with no clue as to what might be in it.
Now that is great advice.
@Cycloptichorn,
I accept that as your opinion, Cyclop. But until you contradict the links I posted, it is your opinion only and I can assume that you can't back it up with anything. You have provided absolutely nothing to suggest that you are doing anything other than parroting the leftwing talking points. That is certainly your prerogative and is fine if that is what you like to do. But don't think it constitutes any rebuttal of any kind for the opinion/information I have posted.
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
I accept that as your opinion, Cyclop. But until you contradict the links I posted, it is your opinion only and I can assume that you can't back it up with anything. You have provided absolutely nothing to suggest that you are doing anything other than parroting the leftwing talking points. That is certainly your prerogative and is fine if that is what you like to do. But don't think it constitutes any rebuttal of any kind for the opinion/information I have posted.
Can you show where any government agent forced any financial trading house to invest in mortgages? What law or rule forced them to do that? Your links provided no information about this whatsoever.
You do understand the difference between financial trading houses and banks, don't you? And that financial trading houses issue mortgages to nobody, have nothing to do with fannie and freddie or any government rules governing their behavior?
This isn't a 'leftwing talking point.' This is an honest question. I think you have gotten confused somewhere along the way in an effort to blame the Democrats.
Cycloptichorn
@Cycloptichorn,
I refer you back to the links posted previously this morning. But no, nobody forced anybody to invest in mortgages, but investing in mortgages is a legitimate business that provides credit so that people can buy homes and other properties. Thank goodness we have people who choose that line of work. It has contributed to much, if not most, of our country's outstanding financial strength.
But, in my opinion, supported by those links I posted, there was considerable pressure applied by the government for financial institutions to take on risky or dangerous mortgages. It is my opinion, supported by those links I posted, that this was the #1 and most important factor in the current economic collapse and without it, we would not be in the closest thing we have seen to a depression since the 1930's.
Now, can you define those terms you threw out there and show how they rebut my opinion, or can't you?
@Cycloptichorn,
Well, I have to go soon, so I'll go ahead and post the answer to the question, which explains quite easily how these trading houses got into trouble with mortgages.
Quote:The current financial crisis has many causes, some long-term and structural. I focus here, however, on three immediate aspects of the crisis: the trigger, how problems generated by that trigger spread through the markets, and how this produced the liquidity freeze that persuaded Mr. Paulson and Mr. Bush to act (unsuccessfully thus far).
The Trigger: Teaser-Rate Mortgages
The media talks about “sub prime mortgages” " by which it means mortgage loans to borrowers with less than stellar credit. The real problem, however, was the advent and widespread use of teaser-rate mortgages in both the prime and sub prime markets. A teaser-rate mortgage allows a borrower to make relatively small payments for several years. At some point, the rate jumps dramatically, and the borrower faces much higher monthly payment obligations.
Not surprisingly, borrowers loved this innovation. Teaser-rate loans allowed folks who otherwise could never have afforded to own a home to buy one, at least until the rate reset. But it wasn’t just sub prime borrowers who liked teasers. Teasers sold like hotcakes; loan originators made correspondingly fabulous profits.
(Some have tried to blame teaser-rates on the Community Reinvestment Act of 1977, which encouraged lending to minorities and lower income Americans. But that act only applied to commercial banks. A majority of this crisis’s teaser-rate loans were made by unregulated originators not subject to the act. More fundamentally, there is no evidence the present crisis started in 1977. Teaser-rate mortgages first became widespread after Mr. Bush took office in 2001.)
In any event, it’s not hard to predict what happens when rates reset. All of a sudden, buyers who have been paying $1,000 per month face monthly payments of $4,000. Many, perhaps most, go into default.
The possibility that this would become a major problem became apparent as early as 2005. (I actually wrote that fall predicting the current crash.) Mortgage economists began publishing reset schedules " schedules of how many billions or trillions of dollars of mortgages would reset and when. In effect, those tables offered a rough schedule of how many mortgages would go into default and when.
As defaults increased in number, lenders ended up holding large amounts of As defaults increased in number, lenders ended up holding large amounts of foreclosed property. When they tried to convert the property into cash, they put downward pressure on housing prices. And this, in turn, made financing and refinancing more difficult and further defaults more likely " even of non-teaser loans. (A perfect vicious cycle, and we’re not remotely near the end of it. In parts of the country, more half the homes offered for sale are now foreclosures. Banks are desperate to get those homes off their balance sheets and are dumping them much faster than the market can absorb them.)
The Spread: Securitization and Debt Chains
But why did Lehman Brothers and AIG go under? After all, they don’t make mortgage loans. I turn next to how the problem spread.
Assume that A borrows from B to buy a home, giving a mortgage on the home to secure her debt. B then borrows from C, using A’s mortgage as security. C in turn borrows from D, using B’s obligation as security. And so on.
Now assume that A’s mortgage goes bad. What happens to B, C, and D? Answer: all the loans up the chain go bad as well.
And this isn’t all. If the loan is secured (as mortgages and many other links in debt chains are), the lender is typically less interested in the creditworthiness of the borrower. The lender relies primarily on the collateral, not the borrower, for assurance of repayment.
As a result, each financial intermediary can be thinly capitalized. So a company with $10.1 billion in assets and $10 billion in debt may have a small amount of net equity. Indeed, the more thinly capitalized a company, the higher the return it can make on its capital.
Unfortunately, what this means is that when A’s mortgage goes bad, it’s not just the loans up the chain that go bad " financial intermediaries in the chain often go bust as well. A thinly capitalized intermediary cannot absorb many losses. And that is why teaser-rate mortgage defaults triggered and are still triggering defaults and failures across the entire financial sector. Almost everyone was in the debt-chain business and extended themselves to the max to take advantage of the extraordinary profit opportunities of that business.
I’ve explained the transmission mechanism in terms of debt because readers have an intuitive understanding of how debt works. In fact, however, many of the most important links in the chain were not technically “debt.” Some were shares in “mortgage pools”; some, “derivatives”; some, “credit default swaps.” What they all had in common was that each transferred some risk of default up the chain to someone else. Wall Street sometimes calls links in such debt chains “toxic waste,” because today no one wants them.
AIG, for example, held about $500 billion in “notional exposure” on credit default swaps. In English, it was at risk to the tune of about $500 billion if mortgages down the chain went bad. When mortgages began to go bad in large numbers, the market realized that AIG might not be able to cover its obligations and began to sell AIG stock seriously short. Lenders stopped lending. End of story.
What made this more than just a corporate problem was that AIG was a domino at the head of many long chains of dominoes. If AIG had gone, some believed the world would have faced immediate economic collapse. So the US government bought an 80% stake in AIG in exchange for enough money to allow AIG to dissolve gracefully " over a couple of years " instead of imploding overnight.
http://understandingtax.typepad.com/understanding_tax/2008/09/7-the-financial-crisis-what-went-wrong.html
The truth is that the financial investment companies
knew that their investments relied upon other companies in order to keep their value. They knew it was risky. It was assumed that b/c so many were invested in this market, it 'couldn't fail' b/c it would take everyone down with it. Well, that is exactly what happened.
Here's the important part again -
Quote:Almost everyone was in the debt-chain business and extended themselves to the max to take advantage of the extraordinary profit opportunities of that business.
The 'extraordinary profit opportunities.' That's what got the financial trading houses and companies like AIG into the housing market. It was greed on the part of the investors, a desire to get a part of the cheese that everyone else was getting.
No law or rule passed by any government agency forced these companies to buy into this business model whatsoever. To blame the government for the failure of investment fund managers to properly understand their risk is farcical and nothing more than rank and uninformed politics on the part of Republicans.
If you disagree, please show me which laws forced investment houses to purchase these CDOs, forced AIG to do it. Draw a picture of how the market went south, with links from one part of business to the next, that do not include personal choice on the part of the investment managers.
At the end of the day I understand that you Conservatives are morally opposed to blaming big business for its' failures, and that you cannot accept the role Greed had in this, without raising uncomfortable questions about yourselves.
Cycloptichorn
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
But, in my opinion, supported by those links I posted, there was considerable pressure applied by the government for financial institutions to take on risky or dangerous mortgages. It is my opinion, supported by those links I posted, that this was the #1 and most important factor in the current economic collapse and without it, we would not be in the closest thing we have seen to a depression since the 1930's.
Like I said, I have to go. But this is completely wrong. Your opinion is not supported by facts. Your links do not provide the facts to support this opinion of yours.
As I said you don't seem to understand the difference between banks and financial investment houses... do you realize that the government has no ability to pressure investment houses to invest in mortgages? How exactly do you think they 'pressured' these places to invest? You ought to have a very pat answer to this, as your whole argument relies upon it.
Cycloptichorn
@Cycloptichorn,
Cyclo, You are correct; the government cannot force banks to make loans to unqualified people. What the banks did, however, is invest in the mortgage instruments which was the biggest gamble they ever involved themselves into for which many major banks of all countries were involved. They all thought it was "easy" money when in fact they were "speculating" on future value that was never in the books.
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:
Mainstream economists agree that FDR's big mistake was attacking the depression half-heartedly. Thus, Obama is attacking full force. A piece in the Huffington Post states, in part....
Thanks for the clip from this great article from the Huffington Post. The time is long overdue for substantial investment in our country's infrastructure and economic foundations.
The tax-protesting rightwing nuts (who claim to be patriotic tea-partiers) don't understand that they're throwing their party on the top of a decaying society. Our window of opportunity to fix the decay is NOW. "Business as usual" is no longer an option.