55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2009 09:11 pm
So-called "progressive" and "graduated" tax rates on things are not uniform, because they tax things at different rates depending on how many things are obtained.

So-called "progressive" and "graduated" tax rates on dollars of income are not uniform, because they tax dollars of income at different rates depending on how many dollars of income are obtained.

A uniform tax rate on things is the same for all such things regardless of the number of things obtained.

A uniform tax rate on dollars of income is the same for all dollars of income regardless of the number of dollars of income obtained.

For my dollars of income, and your dollars of income, and everyone else's dollars of income to be taxed uniformly, each and every dollar of income must be taxed at the same rate. If the tax rate on each and every dollar of income is 10%, then if I receive a total of 10 billion dollars of income per year, my total taxes would be 1 billion dollars per year. If the tax rate on each and every dollar of income is 10%, then if I receive 10 dollars of income per year, my taxes would be 1 dollar per year.
In the Constitution, the Founding Fathers wrote:

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html
Article I. Section 2. Representatives and direct taxes shall be apportioned among the several states which may be included within this union, according to their respective numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole number of free persons, including those bound to service for a term of years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.

In the Constitution, the Founding Fathers wrote:

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html
Article I. Section 8. The Congress shall have power
To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States,

In the Constitution, the Founding Fathers wrote:

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html
Article I. Section 9. No capitation, or other direct, tax shall be laid, unless in proportion to the census or enumeration herein before directed to be taken.

3/4 or more of the State Legislatures Ratified this Amendment that Congress wrote:

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_amendments_11-27.html
Amendment XIII (1865)
Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

3/4 or more of the State Legislatures Ratified this Amendment that Congress wrote:

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_amendments_11-27.html
Amendment XVI (1913)
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census of enumeration.

3/4 or more of the State Legislatures Ratified this Amendment that Congress wrote:

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/bill_of_rights_transcript.html
Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.


cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2009 09:18 pm
@ican711nm,
That doesn't matter; everybody pays "uniform" tax. That taxes are based on different levels of Adjusted Taxable Income, it's still "uniform." It's based on filing status, but it's still uniform for that level of adjusted taxable income. All other kinds of taxes are "uniform" for consumers based on where they live and what they buy. If anyone doesn't smoke or drive a car, they don't have to pay any taxes on those products. But everybody who smokes and drives a car pays a "uniform" tax.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2009 09:53 pm
@ican711nm,
Scintillating, truly scintillating stuff, Ican. This cutting edge constitutional theory of yours is just so, oooooh, it's so exciting to read.

What law school did you say you graduated from? Why aren't you back there teaching?

Your trenchant, cut to the chase analysis of the issues is especially exciting and rewarding. Why would anyone feel the need to pore over thousands of pages of legal theory and argument when you sum it up so nicely in a couple of hundred words?
0 Replies
 
genoves
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 02:25 am
@ican711nm,
Ican- You should pay attention to the erudite posts of Cicerone and JTT. Did you notice how they gathered evidence and documentation to rebut your post?

In reality, they just showed that all they have to offer is meaningless intellectual flatulence. Your posts on the Constitution are fine and everyone, especially, the left wing, should read them since they obviously know little about the Constitution.
0 Replies
 
genoves
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 02:41 am
Cyclops wrote: ( He is correct about the past )

I bet you Ican does not in fact do that. And why would you even say that? You know that the 200k+ crowd voted for Obama.
end of quote
The 200+ crowd will now desert Obama!!!! evidence and documentation to come!!
0 Replies
 
genoves
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 02:44 am

JTT wrote:

What law school did you say you graduated from? Why aren't you back there teaching?
END OF QUOTE
It is clear that JTT knows NOTHING about Law and Law Schools. Less than 1% of the graduates of a LAW SCHOOL end up being professors at the law school they graduated from. MOST law school graduates go on to practice law!!
parados
 
  2  
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 08:49 am
@ican711nm,
U.S. Supreme Court
Head Money Cases, 112 U.S. 580 (1884)
Quote:
A tax is uniform, within the meaning of the constitutional provision on that subject, when it operates with the same effect in all places where the subject of it is found, and is not wanting in such uniformity because the thing taxed is not equally distributed in all parts of the United States.

http://supreme.justia.com/us/112/580/case.html

The tax is uniform in taxing the $200,000 dollar of income the same in all places even if income is not evenly distributed.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  3  
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 08:55 am
@ican711nm,
US Supreme Court
Knowlton v Moore
Quote:
The executors protested on the grounds (1) that the provisions of the act were unconstitutional, (2) that legacies amounting to less than $10,000, were not subject to any tax or duty, (3) that a legacy of $100,000, taxed at the rate of $2.25 per $100, was only subject to the rate of $1.12 1/2

....

The provision in Section 8 of Article I of the Constitution that "all duties, imports and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States" refers purely to a geographical uniformity, and is synonymous with the expression "to operate generally throughout the United States."


http://supreme.justia.com/us/178/41/
The USSC clearly ruled that "uniform" does NOT mean all dollars must be taxed the same. In fact they ruled there is no such meaning in the statement.

Knowlton clearly shows that progressive taxation IS constitutional.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 12:19 pm
On another front, we are continuing to see our government federalize and take over or propose taking over more and more of the economy while expanding government to unprecedented proportions, accruing mind boggling bigger deficits, and expecting the rich to pay higher taxes and accept fewer deductions for mortgage interest--do we REALLY want the rich to stop investing in construction and real estate--this is a good thing? And we expect the rich to accept fewer deductions for charitable contributions. Do we REALLY want the rich to stop funding the research foundations, universities, hospitals, the arts, etc. that they now fund?

How much longer can the President blame all the current economic woes and all our troubles and justify all his actions on the failures of the Bush administration? I received the following in my e-mail this morning. Admittedly the Bush administration did nothing to take care of this the first six years and, when the alarm bells were ringing loud enough for everybody to hear, did not have the votes to take care of it the last two years.

Now we the people can continue to wring our hands and point fingers and lay blame and absolve ourselves of all culpabiility while crying how terrible it is. . .

or. . .

We can begin to identify what really caused the problems and make our elected leaders aware with great clarity that we know.

Quote:
Fannie Mae Eases Credit To Aid Mortgage Lending
By STEVEN A. HOLMES
Published: September 30, 1999

In a move that could help increase home ownership rates among minorities and low-income consumers, the Fannie Mae Corporation is easing the credit requirements on loans that it will purchase from banks and other lenders.

The action, which will begin as a pilot program involving 24 banks in 15 markets -- including the New York metropolitan region -- will encourage those banks to extend home mortgages to individuals whose credit is generally not good enough to qualify for conventional loans. Fannie Mae officials say they hope to make it a nationwide program by next spring.
Fannie Mae, the nation's biggest underwriter of home mortgages, has been under increasing pressure from the Clinton Administration to expand mortgage loans among low and moderate income people and felt pressure from stock holders to maintain its phenomenal growth in profits.

In addition, banks, thrift institutions and mortgage companies have been pressing Fannie Mae to help them make more loans to so-called subprime borrowers. These borrowers whose incomes, credit ratings and savings are not good enough to qualify for conventional loans, can only get loans from finance companies that charge much higher interest rates -- anywhere from three to four percentage points higher than conventional loans.

''Fannie Mae has expanded home ownership for millions of families in the 1990's by reducing down payment requirements,'' said Franklin D. Raines, Fannie Mae's chairman and chief executive officer. ''Yet there remain too many borrowers whose credit is just a notch below what our underwriting has required who have been relegated to paying significantly higher mortgage rates in the so-called subprime market.''

Demographic information on these borrowers is sketchy. But at least one study indicates that 18 percent of the loans in the subprime market went to black borrowers, compared to 5 per cent of loans in the conventional loan market.

In moving, even tentatively, into this new area of lending, Fannie Mae is taking on significantly more risk, which may not pose any difficulties during flush economic times. But the government-subsidized corporation may run into trouble in an economic downturn, prompting a government rescue similar to that of the savings and loan industry in the 1980's.

''From the perspective of many people, including me, this is another thrift industry growing up around us,'' said Peter Wallison a resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. ''If they fail, the government will have to step up and bail them out the way it stepped up and bailed out the thrift industry.''
Under Fannie Mae's pilot program, consumers who qualify can secure a mortgage with an interest rate one percentage point above that of a conventional, 30-year fixed rate mortgage of less than $240,000 -- a rate that currently averages about 7.76 per cent. If the borrower makes his or her monthly payments on time for two years, the one percentage point premium is dropped.

Fannie Mae, the nation's biggest underwriter of home mortgages, does not lend money directly to consumers. Instead, it purchases loans that banks make on what is called the secondary market. By expanding the type of loans that it will buy, Fannie Mae is hoping to spur banks to make more loans to people with less-than-stellar credit ratings.

Fannie Mae officials stress that the new mortgages will be extended to all potential borrowers who can qualify for a mortgage. But they add that the move is intended in part to increase the number of minority and low income home owners who tend to have worse credit ratings than non-Hispanic whites.

Home ownership has, in fact, exploded among minorities during the economic boom of the 1990's. The number of mortgages extended to Hispanic applicants jumped by 87.2 per cent from 1993 to 1998, according to Harvard University's Joint Center for Housing Studies. During that same period the number of African Americans who got mortgages to buy a home increased by 71.9 per cent and the number of Asian Americans by 46.3 per cent.

In contrast, the number of non-Hispanic whites who received loans for homes increased by 31.2 per cent.

Despite these gains, home ownership rates for minorities continue to lag behind non-Hispanic whites, in part because blacks and Hispanics in particular tend to have on average worse credit ratings.

In July, the Department of Housing and Urban Development proposed that by the year 2001, 50 percent of Fannie Mae's and Freddie Mac's portfolio be made up of loans to low and moderate-income borrowers. Last year, 44 percent of the loans Fannie Mae purchased were from these groups.

The change in policy also comes at the same time that HUD is investigating allegations of racial discrimination in the automated underwriting systems used by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to determine the credit-worthiness of credit applicants.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9c0de7db153ef933a0575ac0a96f958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=2

Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 12:30 pm
That has almost nothing to do with our current financial crisis. You've had this patiently explained to you many times, Fox, yet remain stubborn in your desire to blame poor folks and minorities for the financial collapse; nary a word from you holding those responsible for investing others' money to the fire for their poor choices.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 12:32 pm
Also, you state -

Quote:
On another front, we are continuing to see our government federalize and take over or propose taking over more and more of the economy while expanding government to unprecedented proportions


Do you realize that these companies are coming to the government for help? It isn't as if Obama went to the financial industry and had to beg them to accept government funding...

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 12:51 pm
Patiently or patently explaining to me something that isn't so won't make it so no matter how many times it is explained. Wishful thinking that enables us to transfer blame and culpability to somebody else never fixed a problem either.

14 November 2008

Quote:
Economist Discusses Causes of Global Economic Downturn
Says countries must find right mix of capitalism, government intervention

A trader on the New York Stock Exchange works at his post just a day ahead of the global financial summit in Washington.By Meghan Loftus
Staff Writer

Washington " Trouble in housing markets, regulatory structures and capital flow have contributed to the global economic downtown, according to James Barth of the Milken Institute.

Barth, during an America.gov webchat November 12, explained some of the problems that precipitated the downturn in the U.S. financial markets, in particular the subprime mortgage crisis. These mortgages, which were extended to individuals with questionable creditworthiness, often were securitized, meaning they were pooled into securities and then were sold internationally. When the loans declined in value due to the inability of homeowners to pay their loans, the securities declined in value also, spelling trouble for investors.

“Firms that have too little capital and too many assets are at serious risk of insolvency should those assets decline in value by even a relatively small amount,” said Barth. “Financial regulatory authorities have to, therefore, reassess the appropriate amount of capital that should be required for financial institutions.”
More here:
http://www.america.gov/st/econ-english/2008/November/20081114180033EMsutfoL0.7829096.html


Quote:
Is the real cause of our Economic Downturn "Excessive Greed" or "Excessive Benevolence"?
Bruce Anderson in The Independent:

Anderson writes: “Excessive benevolence is much more to blame than excessive greed.” Going on to elucidate that “In the late 1990s, a Democrat-controlled Congress virtually compelled US banks to advance mortgages irrespective of the applicants' financial status. Racial factors played a role in this; a large percentage of sub-prime borrowers were Black or Hispanic. But everything was underpinned by economic optimism. The assumption was that the economy would just keep on growing, so that even the poorest families could have their stake in the American dream.”

Certainly, blame should be apportioned to many individuals outside of the US government, but the fact remains that the nascent cause of the current trouble was anti-redlining laws instituted in the US in 1977 and strengthened in 1995, along with the enormous expansion of the money supply that took place under the auspices of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (backed by the Department for Housing and Urban Development). Even as the severity of the credit bubble was becoming increasingly evident, such socialistic polices were advocated by many in Congress, suggesting that poorer people should be given even more opportunities to borrow.

Bad government policies sowed the seeds that made this current crisis. It is time that the press at large acknowledged this, instead of confusing cause with effect. Government’s must learn their lesson and not be allowed to introduce such utopian policies again. Once again the problem was too much government, not too little.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081014191947AAjie6Z


Quote:
. . . .Now that we are clear, what contributed to the US economic crisis? The subprime mortgage crisis. Lenders were issuing mortgage loans to borrowers that had less than adequate credit rating. The ability to take out mortgage loans coupled with rising house prices enticed the borrowers to commit to mortgage contracts in hopes of benefiting from the rising trend of house prices, and the ability to refinance at better rates if required. However, housing prices began to decline in 2006-2007 which made it difficult for the borrowers to refinance their mortgages causing them to default on their obligations. During 2007, an estimated 1.3 million US property was involved in default (foreclosures), up 76% from 2006. . . .
http://bus442.wordpress.com/2008/03/26/us-economic-downturn-cause/
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 12:58 pm
@Foxfyre,
None of that explains how the financial crisis happened, Fox. How did the problems in the housing market transmit themselves to ALL our banks and trading houses, and even insurance agencies such as AIG? Specifically.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 01:03 pm
@Foxfyre,
Anderson is way off the mark; the majority of subprime mortgage sales were done for greed. On the front end, those selling those mortgage loans knew they were selling to people who couldn't afford to buy, but did so for their commissions. The banks traded those instruments, because the rating companies continued to rate them higher than they should have been, and banks traded them like candy that continued to show "profit." They should have known better. Those higher valuations were nothing but speculation.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 01:20 pm
Oh I have no doubt that you guys think you're ever so much better informed, wiser, and smarter than those who do that stuff for a living. But do you have anything other than opinion to dispute them?

Not to belabor my previous point:
Quote:
Patiently or patently explaining to me something that isn't so won't make it so no matter how many times it is explained. Wishful thinking that enables us to transfer blame and culpability to somebody else never fixed a problem either.
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 01:27 pm
At the beginning of WWII, the govt. took over various businesses (e.g., shipbuilding, tank manufacturing, etc.) because private industry could not cope. Also, govt. takes over on a local level where there is failure by the private sector. In DC, a series of private owners basically looted the local transit system. Since the system was critical to the city, the govt., with Rep support, took the transit system over and has run it successfully ever since.

Banking is not rocket science, and it is critical to our private sector . Thus, the govt. should step in as necessary to get this industry running correctly.

Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 01:45 pm
@Advocate,
Quote:
Excerpt of a review of Jim Powell's FDR's Folly:

. . . .This book will probably draw unfavorable comment from the mainstream press and from academia, if it receives any attention at all. His critics will charge that Powell, a CATO Institute senior fellow and editor of the libertarian Laissez-Faire Books, is not an unbiased or objective historian. (Only liberals can write objective history.) But Powell has a thorough knowledge of the pertinent literature and draws heavily from the work of economic historians like Michael Bernstein and economists like Milton Friedman. He is no John Flynn, the erstwhile FDR supporter whose exposé of "the Roosevelt myth," in a book of the same name, drew liberal ire for its vituperation of the president.

Powell's main contribution is to explain how the New Deal prolonged the Depression. He points first to New Deal banking laws. The prohibition of branch-banking"the failure to allow banks to establish branches throughout the country"contributed to the banking panic and bank failures during the early 1930s. Most banks were undercapitalized institutions that should remind readers of the two-bit Bailey Building and Loan in Frank Capra's "It's A Wonderful Life." Economic rationality suggested that capital reserves be sufficient to provide depositors a guarantee that deposits would be safe. Powell argues that government regulation of banking, the New Deal's solution to the banking crisis, was unnecessary. Instead, permitting banking institutions with sufficient capital reserves to open branches and to invest their reserves would have solved the problem. Canada, which allowed branch-banking, suffered hardly any bank failures during the Depression.

Powell indicts federal monetary policy, as well. He accepts the argument, developed by economist Murray Rothbard in America's Great Depression, that the Federal Reserve system contributed to the Depression in the first place. And the Banking Act of 1935, which created the Fed's Open Market committee and further strengthened its role in shaping monetary policy, helped spark the 1938 Roosevelt recession, the third worst economic collapse in American history.

Powell's book serves also as a superb defense of the Supreme Court's famous "four horsemen of reaction," George Sutherland, Willis Van Devanter, James McReynolds, and Pierce Butler. The conservative members of the Court, famous, or infamous, for declaring unconstitutional the National Industrial Recovery Act and the Agricultural Adjustment Act, are stoutly defended by Powell. All four, joined at times by Charles Evans Hughes and Owen Roberts, "did a splendid job articulating vital principles of economic liberty"fac[ing] enormous political pressure from a popular president." Rather than being reactionaries"horse-and-buggy conservatives"the four were well-regarded practitioners of the law who served ably on the Court.

At its strongest, FDR's Folly is a powerful synthesis of the economic damage wrought by the New Deal. The book shows how New Deal farm programs helped large landowners at the expense of tenant farmers and sharecroppers; how the National Industrial Recovery Act contributed to monopoly and to the development of cartels within industries, undercutting recovery; how Social Security slowed the recovery, taxing workers, removing money from the wider economy, and contributing to higher unemployment; and how African-Americans were hurt by the Agricultural Adjustment Administration and the Wagner Act's sponsorship of unions.

Many of these arguments are well known. New Left historians in the 1960s, like Stanford University's Barton Bernstein, reached similar conclusions about the New Deal's failure, for example, to address issues of black poverty (of course, Bernstein is also critical of Roosevelt for saving capitalism). Powell does not claim that Roosevelt was a socialist. Rather, he was an opportunist, concerned with cementing his political power and little interested in how his programs affected the very constituencies he relied on for votes.

For all its strengths, FDR's Folly does not come to grips with the man's political understanding and ambition. Although the New Deal failed economically, politically it was a stunning success. FDR's liberalism dominated American politics for the next four decades. Only in the '60s and '70s, when the failures of modern liberalism were apparent for all to see, did conservatives begin to make headway against the liberal establishment. But conservatives have still not proven that they can mobilize a public commitment to decreasing the size of government comparable to FDR's commitment to increasing it.
http://www.claremont.org/publications/crb/id.835/article_detail.asp
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 01:46 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Oh I have no doubt that you guys think you're ever so much better informed, wiser, and smarter than those who do that stuff for a living. But do you have anything other than opinion to dispute them?

Not to belabor my previous point:
Quote:
Patiently or patently explaining to me something that isn't so won't make it so no matter how many times it is explained. Wishful thinking that enables us to transfer blame and culpability to somebody else never fixed a problem either.



Fox, you didn't answer the question: How did the housing market downturn affect ALL our banks and financial trading houses? Specifically.

Cycloptichorn
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 01:51 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
The answer is in the links I posted this morning while I don't accept your opinion that ALL banks are in trouble. All the banks are inter-related via the Federal Reserve and all banks that bought Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac bundled loans incurred the debt, sometimes knowingly, sometimes unknowingly, but all banks were not careless and/or didn't bow to government pressure though all the big banks received the same pressures.

Small independently owned banks in our area do not seem to be seriously suffering from the problems as do the big banks who made or bought all those under capitalized, and unwise loans.

So far we have seen zero admission from our elected leaders that the policies underscoring the beginning of and a primary catalyst for the economic collapse was THEIR doing and unless they address and deal with that and correct that, we will be much slower digging out of the mess that they caused and the cycle will repeat itself.
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 01:53 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

See what I was saying, Debra. These Ican info sessions just give me a tingle. It's so refreshing to hear a new point of view instead of that same old claptrap that's offered up by those conservatives who just don't have the insight into the workings of the Constitution that Ican has.



Hail to Ican. King of the wingnuts . . . I mean, constitutional scholars.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.2 seconds on 03/16/2025 at 09:18:01