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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2009 01:09 pm
@Foxfyre,
It's not a matter of disagree, Foxy, it's the things that you say. Do you have any idea how large the national debt is? Do you have the slightest conception about how fast it's growing? And then you come up with nonsense like that last "gem" from your email friends.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2009 01:11 pm
@Foxfyre,
For almost four decades...conservatives have had their way in this country. The liberals, lily livered that they are...have pretty much given them their way right down the line.

Anyone who thinks this country is in better shape now than it was before American conservatism gained all that power...is nuts.

To paraphrase a favorite bromide of the right: American conservatism is a part of the problem...not a part of the solution.

And I think it is a significant and substantial part of the problem.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2009 01:11 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre,
I have been contemplating your recommendation that a flat tax on gross revenue be implemented AND contributions to charity be subtracted from taxable gross income.

I now agree!
I agree now because I realize it to be an excellent way to remove/reduce illegal federal government charitable contributions and thereby prevent government from controlling who gets what charity.

I have studied whether it is a violation of the Constitution and have concluded that it does not violate the Constitution's "uniform" clause of Article I. Section 8. 1st paragraph, because donors are free to donate whatever they want. I would limit the amount of total donations that are exempt to be less than or equal to 99% of total income.

I recommend that the definition of charitable contributions be:
Private income of individuals or groups of individuals donated to non-family members and is not returned to the donor in the form of gifts, profits, dividends, or salaries.

I recommend family members be Spouses including divorsed spouses, Children including adopted children, and Parents including grand parents and great grand parents.

What do you think?
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2009 01:23 pm
@cicerone imposter,
We all know now that those GDP figures were built on a functioning and prosperous economy that has now collapsed from its buildup 1977 to 2006.

All of that collapse since 2006 is thanks to Bush and the Democrat and Republican MALs.

Its continuing collapse is thanks to Obama and all the rest of the MALs.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2009 01:35 pm
@ican711nm,
I agree. Denying government the authority to dispense charity while allowing a deduction for charitable contributions is a valid option for government as it does a) better provide for the general welfare in a society that cares for the less fortunate, and b) it is an option afforded every citizen without respect to age, gender, race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc., and c) it removes the temptation and ability for Congress to use the people's money to buy votes from easily manipulated constituencies which is one of the most corrupting influences in government.

I'll have to think on restrictions re family members though I appreciate the valid motive behind such restrictions. When I was once on the original board of a newly forming Domestic Violence Association, and we were trying to raise enough funds to build a badly needed shelter, some of the board members and the executive director raked in a ton of cash hitting up wealthy relatives. So that restriction might need a bit of fine tuning while not violating the intent and spirit of it.

I do think any charitable organization receiving tax deductible contributions must be a registered and approved not-for-profit organization, must not be partisan or political in any way, must have 100% transparent financial accounting subject to thorough audit by an impartial panel made up of people who do not benefit in any way from the organization(s) they oversee, and must expend 80% or more of its gross income in direct services to the people. I think multi-million dollar salaries paid to charitable organization executives is obscene and I will have to think what caps/restrictions I think necessary and/or Constitutional to do about that.

I think deductions for contributions to churches, as they are a somewhat different kind of animal, should probably continue to be limited to 20% of AGI or whatever the cap is now.

0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2009 01:41 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

It's not a matter of disagree, Foxy, it's the things that you say. Do you have any idea how large the national debt is? Do you have the slightest conception about how fast it's growing? And then you come up with nonsense like that last "gem" from your email friends.


How do you think that 'gem' has contributed to the national debt? What fault do you find with the thought included within it?

Frank blames it all on the conservatives despite that the liberals held both Houses of Congress for most of the past 70 years and liberal Presidents for much of that same period and it was these who were responsible for the lion's share of the huge social program entitlements that make reducing the debt almost impossible. But you don't have any problem with him saying that it was just the conservatives who ruined it for all of us?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2009 01:46 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxie wants to go back into history rather than the recent disaster called Bush. Bush was in control of congress for most of his term when all these problems escalated, and now Foxie wants to go back into past history. Typical MAC strategy. LOL
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2009 01:52 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

JTT wrote:

It's not a matter of disagree, Foxy, it's the things that you say. Do you have any idea how large the national debt is? Do you have the slightest conception about how fast it's growing? And then you come up with nonsense like that last "gem" from your email friends.


How do you think that 'gem' has contributed to the national debt? What fault do you find with the thought included within it?

Frank blames it all on the conservatives despite that the liberals held both Houses of Congress for most of the past 70 years and liberal Presidents for much of that same period and it was these who were responsible for the lion's share of the huge social program entitlements that make reducing the debt almost impossible. But you don't have any problem with him saying that it was just the conservatives who ruined it for all of us?


The social programs do not make reducing the debt 'almost impossible.' Clinton and the Republicans in Congress did it in the 90's without too much trouble. And they did it by raising taxes.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2009 01:58 pm
@Foxfyre,
Yes, JTT...up until 1980...the year Ronald Reagan came into power...Foxfyre is correct--the Democrats (not necessarily the liberals) had a lot of control over congress. AND WE WERE ONE HELL OF A LOT BETTER OFF THAN WE ARE NOW.

Since 1980...the Republicans (and a decidedly conservative Republican Party) controlled the House for 20 years...and the Democrats 8 years. The Republicans (and a decidedly conservative Republican Party) controlled the Senate for 16 years and the Democrats for 12 years.

So that post Foxfyre just offered is probably more useful for laughs than anything else.

While the conservatives were in their ascendancy...this country has gone downhill at top speed. When it was in the hands of the Democrats"we were golden.

Conservatives have ruined this country!

But, that is to be expected. They have been on the wrong side of all the momentous issues this country has ever faced.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2009 02:02 pm
I count 12 years that the Republicans had a majority in the House since 1980. (Since 1960 actually.) Where do you get 20?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2009 02:27 pm
@Foxfyre,
Math has never been my strong point, Foxfyre. I screwed up with my numbers. I apologize...although the dynamics of the argument really don't get changed.

The correct numbers are:

Republicans were in control of the Senate during the 97th, 98th, 99th, 104th, 105th, 106th, 108th, and 109th congresses. That totals 16 years out of 28. The Democrats were in control for 12 years.


Republicans controlled he House during the 104th through the 109th congresses for a total of 12 years and the Democrats for 16 years during that same time.


During the last 20 years...the Republicans controlled the House for 12 years and the Democrats for 8 years....and the Republicans controlled the Senate for 10 years...and the Democrats for 6 years plus 4 more when Independents caucusing with them gave them a one seat advantage.

During the 20 years leading up to this disaster, the Republicans have been in control of both houses of congress at least half the time.

Back when they were never in control...things were much better.

That ultimately was my point.

Conservatives are screwing this nation...and it is to be expected. They have always been on the wrong side of the major issues facing this country.

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2009 02:31 pm
@Frank Apisa,
That's essentially what Obama said about the chutzpa of the republicans wanting to stay the course after eight years of GOP administration and congress.

What makes them think their "plan" is the right one? As history tells us, democrats in the white house and congress has done a better job for "all" Americans.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2009 02:38 pm
@Frank Apisa,
MALs are on the wrong side of the major issues facing this country.

MALs are screwing this nation...and it is to be expected.

MALs are consumed with wealth envy. It appears to be a rarely curable or even controllable mental illness. If they continue in power for more than 2 years, they will not only be screwing the nation. They will also be screwing themselves. But they will nonetheless be satisfied, because they hate the more wealthy so much that they are willing and even eager to sacrifice themselves to the accomplishment of their evil goal--destroying the more wealthy. To hell with them!
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2009 02:41 pm
Sigh. Whatever Frank. You would think that the Democrats would do great things and make it much better when they had the chance to undo all the terrible stuff you think Republicans have done to the country. That they don't doesn't seem to bother you. Nor does the fact that it is their excesses and failures and/or corruption that generally is what puts the Republicans into power from time to time.

I on the other hand have never seen the GOP as the party of Saints or the Democrats as the party of Demons. I was born a Democrat and remained a Democrat for much of my adult life. I left the Democratic Party when it abandoned many of the values I held dear and became the party of the bleeding heart liberal that, among other things, has done more damage to the poor and oppressed in this country than the worst excesses of any conservative ideology. Are all Democrats such bleeding heart liberals? Of course not. Do most among that group belong to the Democrats? Yes they do.

But I am still more circumspect and look at specific cause and effect promoted by either or both parties. I see the good things each has done and the ill advised or wrong headed philosophies promoted by each and both. I think it narrow, bigoted, and ignorant to assign all that is evil to a group of people based on a label, and think such people operate from prejudice rather than any rational observation. But that's just me.

My hopes for this thread was to set ideology aside or at least be willing to see the strengths and weaknesses within it and discuss what it good and what doesn't work. Wouldn't it be nice if we could see the virtues and weaknesses inherent in all sides and take the best that we can get and make it better? That is impossible when you deal with minds that are firmly closed.

Michael Barone offered a somewhat related but different perspective last month:

Quote:
January 03, 2009
No Permanent Majorities in America
By Michael Barone

As we approach the change from a Republican to a Democratic administration, I have been thinking about the differences in the basic character of our two historic parties -- the oldest and third oldest free political parties in the world (number two, at least by my count, is the British Conservative Party).

Democrats are now hoping that their party can achieve something like permanent majority status. They can take heart that their presidential candidate won by a wider margin and their party has larger congressional majorities than the Republicans had when they entertained similar hopes four years ago. But there is reason for caution, and not just because the Republicans fell so far short. And the reason lies in the difference in the basic character of the parties.

The Republican Party throughout our history has been a party whose core constituency has been those who are considered, by themselves and by others, to be typical Americans. In the 19th century, that meant white Northern Protestants. Today, it means white married Christians. Yet such people, however typical, have never made up a majority in our culturally and regionally diverse nation.

The Republican core constituency tends to be cohesive and coherent (though sometimes, like now, quarrelsome). But it has almost never been by itself enough to win. As some Democrats like to remind you, Republicans have lost the popular vote for president in four of the last five elections.

The Democratic Party throughout our history has been the party whose core constituencies have been those who are considered, by themselves and by others, to be something other than typical Americans. In the 19th century, that meant white Southerners and big city Catholics. Today, it means blacks and singles and seculars and those with postgraduate degrees. Such people, while atypical, potentially make up a majority. But they often do not have a lot in common -- and when they have differences over highly visible political issues, they are hard to hold together.

As some Republicans like to remind you, Democrats have lost seven of the 11 presidential elections since their landslide victory in 1964.

Partisan enthusiasts look forward to their side achieving lasting majority status. Others might take counsel from the political scientist David Mayhew, who casts doubt on whether permanent or long-lasting majorities are possible. When you look closely at the supposedly permanent partisan majorities of the past, they fade from view.

Republicans won all but two presidential elections from 1860 to 1892. But Democrats won majorities in the House for most of that period after the Southern states were readmitted to the Union. Republicans won all but two presidential elections from 1896 to 1928. And they held congressional majorities for most of that time, as well. Yet they won almost nowhere in the South, and at the time their dominance was by no means taken for granted.

And what of the New Deal Democratic majority from 1932 to 1968? New Deal Democrats took a hit in the off-year elections of 1938, and polling suggests the Republicans would have won in 1940 if domestic issues had been paramount. Instead, voters re-elected Franklin Roosevelt as a wartime president in 1940 and 1944.

Harry Truman, too, benefited from a foreign issue -- the successful Berlin airlift -- in 1948, and John F. Kennedy campaigned in 1960 as the most determined of Cold Warriors. The Democrats held Congress during almost all this period. But as liberal historians note mournfully, liberal Democrats had effective majorities for only a couple of years from the 1930s to the 1960s.

All of which suggests to me that the more natural state of partisan politics, in this country at least, is something less like party dominance and more like uneasy equilibrium. Equilibrium that swings to one side or another from time to time, as it has swung in varying measure to Democrats in 1992 and 2008 and to Republicans in 1994 and 2004.

Because of their basic character, both parties have difficult tasks in assembling and holding together majorities -- Republicans, because their core constituency is off-putting to those whom it defines as something other than typical Americans; Democrats, because of the difficult of holding together what is usually a very diverse and conflict-prone coalition.

Barack Obama now has that task. He has shown unusual skills and the capacity and willingness to stress what he has in common with those on the other side of the partisan divide. But already rents are appearing in the Democratic fabric -- over Rod Blagojevich, same-sex marriage and the unions' card check bill. My guess is that Obama will hold his majority together for a good long while, but not forever.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/01/no_permanent_majorities_in_ame.html



Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2009 03:42 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre...

...all I am doing is to share the truth as I see it.

You don't have to agree...and if I haven't recently, allow me to add that I recognize that decent, intelligent, well-intentioned people can disagree with my take on things.

I think the American conservative agenda is the most demeaning political philosophy ever. I loathe it with all the passion I can muster. If you see that as pure prejudice and ignorance of some kind...do so. I see as a reasonable reaction to something loathsome.

In any case, I am enjoying your attempts here to try to make it seem like something other than the pollutant it is on our country...but you are just not pulling it off. At least, not in my opinion.

Anybody who cannot see through the smoke and mirrors of American conservatism...is, in my opinion...selectively blind. American conservatism is an insult to America. At the grass roots level, it is a group of people steadying the hands of others trying to slit their throats. And as I've mentioned many times before, if it weren't for the inclusion of some of the scum of the Earth...American conservative numbers would be pitiful.

Continue what you are about here, Foxfyre. Good to see people actually trying to influence American conservatism. Unfortunately, you are using a scalpal...where a chain saw is needed.

I want Obama to do well...not only because our country can use all the successes it can muster right now...but also because if he is successful, I think it will strike a fatal blow for American conservatism.

And our country needs American conservatism like a body needs cancer of the pancreas.

Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2009 03:47 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
I think the American conservative agenda is the most demeaning political philosophy ever.


But why? Is it pure animal instinctive reaction? Or have you put any rational thought into why you loath the conservative agenda?

Can you give three examples of what is loathsome in the 'conservative agenda' and why you consider them to be typical of conservatives and also loathsome?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2009 03:57 pm
@Foxfyre,
Its disgusting appeal to racists.

Its disgusting appeal to misogynists.

Its disgusting appeal to homophobes.

Its disgusting tendency to blame others for everything.

Its disgusting tendency to consider government to be something bad.

Its disgusting lack of empathy for the poor.

Its disgusting tendency to favor the rich.

Its disgusting tendency to drap itself in the flag when so many of its adherents wouldn't recognize real patriotism if they tripped over it.

Its disgusting tendency to lead us closer and closer to being a theocracy.

Its disgusting....

...yeah, it is disgusting.

That is why I loathe it, Foxfyre...because it is loathsome.
slkshock7
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2009 04:08 pm
@Foxfyre,
Good article, Fox,

There's an old saying that "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely". Republicans had the power, but became corrupt and had their heads handed to them over the past couple election cycles. Dems now have the power but one can rest assured they will become corrupt and fall from power in a few years as well (cracks are already appearing in their wall of solidity)....and the pendulum will swing to the right again.

I remember in the late 1990's thinking the Republicans were on the verge of a permanent majority and enjoying watching the Democrats engage in various fits of self-flagellation. Now it's the Republican's turn.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2009 04:17 pm
@slkshock7,
Thanks Slk and I agree. It was a totally power-crazed, self-serving, and thoroughly corrupt Democratic party that helped propel a visionary and bright faced GOP freshman class into power in 1994. And those Republicans did well for the rest of that decade and, with a President who was less than visionary himself but was willing to mostly go along to get along especially if it earned him credit and praise, they all prospered as did most of us in America.

By the time Bush 43 was elected, however, the Republicans had become complacent, were taking the American people for granted, and forgot the values and principles that put them into power in the first place. We had a President with a great vision going in but who lacked the talent to accomplish a lot of it, and who went along to get along with far too much. And we didn't like them very much.

So the Dems have had two years themselves now and have demonstrated little vision or willingness to deal with much of anything that needed real attention and a President who had no political capital left to use to go over their heads and get it done anyway.

Obama will enjoy popularity for awhile longer. But if he continues to prove that he is an inexperienced novice with ideas that have never worked and won't work now, along with a Democratically controlled Congress that continues to spiral into complacency, taking their power for granted, and focusing on self-serving opportunities, another GOP visionary will eventually come along to 'throw out enough bums' to take power for awhile again.

The problem is as much the system as the people in it now. And sooner or later, a fix is going to require that we address that.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2009 04:18 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Its disgusting appeal to racists.

Its disgusting appeal to misogynists.

Its disgusting appeal to homophobes.

Its disgusting tendency to blame others for everything.

Its disgusting tendency to consider government to be something bad.

Its disgusting lack of empathy for the poor.

Its disgusting tendency to favor the rich.

Its disgusting tendency to drap itself in the flag when so many of its adherents wouldn't recognize real patriotism if they tripped over it.

Its disgusting tendency to lead us closer and closer to being a theocracy.

Its disgusting....

...yeah, it is disgusting.

That is why I loathe it, Foxfyre...because it is loathsome.


No you're still speaking from unsupported prejudice and speaking in generalities, Frank. Give me some specific examples please.
 

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