55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Feb, 2009 12:53 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
They just love to mislead by showing only what they want people to see without any of the "necessary" explanations or its causes.

Typical conservative strategy; mislead enough times, and people will believe it's true.

WHERE'S YOUR EVIDENCE THAT YOU ARE NOT ACTUALLY DOING WHAT YOU ACCUSE ME? OH, I KNOW, YOU CLAIM ONE CANNOT PROVE A NEGATIVE--NOT EVEN THAT NEGATIVE.

Bah, Humbug!
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Feb, 2009 12:54 pm
If I did the math right, the federal treasury revenues in billions of $:


http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/#usgs302

1980 517.1 Last year of Carter Administration

1981 599.3 First year of Reagan Administration
1982 617.8
1983 600.6
1984 666.5
1985 734.1
1986 769.2
1987 854.4
1988 909.3 Last year of Reagan Administration
Difference between 1st & last year
310.60 or avg growth of 38.83 per year

1989 991.2 First year of George H.W. Bush Adm
1990 1032.1
1991 1055.1 Bush tax increase kicked in.
1992 1091.3 Last year of George H.W. Bush Adm.
Difference between 1st and last year
100.1 or avg growth of 25.03 per year

1993 1154.5 First year of Bill Clinton Adm.
1994 - 1258.7
1995 - 1351.9
1996 - 1453.2
1997 - 1579.4
1998 - 1772.0
1999 - 1827.6
2000 - 2025.5 Last year of Bill Clinton Adm.
Difference between 1st & lastyear
871.0 or avg growth of 108.9 per year

2001 - 1991.4 First year of George W. Bush Adm
and the year of 9/11
2002 - 1853.4
2003 - 1782.5 The Bush tax cuts were enacted.
2004 - 1880.3
2005 - 2153.9
2006 - 2407.3
2007 - 2568.2
2008 - 2521.2 Last year of Bush tax cuts and the
crash of the housing Bubble.
Difference between 1st & last year
667.92 or 83.5 per year.
Difference between 2004 and 2008 when
the tax cuts were in effect - 649.9 or
avg of 129.98 per year.

This should quite adequately illustrate that prudent and carefully thought out tax cuts did not reduce revenues to the federal treasury and it should give credence to those who say the tax cuts increased revenues to the federal treasury.

Further it illustrates that the problem is not the amount of money that is taken in--we are increasing that substantially year after year far more in excess of the comparative increase in population and inflation.

The problem is in a government that spends more than its revenues year after year.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Feb, 2009 03:40 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre,
Excellent and timely post.
I'd like to emphasize your conclusions.

TREASURY REVENUE ANNUAL GROWTH IN BILLIONS OF DOLLARS
1981 to 1989 - Reagan Administration (lowered taxes)
avg growth of 38.83 per year

1989 to 1993 - George H.W. Bush Adm (raised taxes alittle)
avg growth of 25.03 per year

1993 to 2001 - Bill Clinton Adm. (raised taxes alot)
avg growth of 108.9 per year

2001 to 2009 - George W. Bush Adm (Bush 43 lowered taxes)
avg of 129.98 per year.

Well I'll be doggone! Average revenue growth within Bush 43 administration--despite his tax cuts--was 129.98/108.9 = more than 1.19357 or almost 20% more than that of Clinton Administration!

AND, inflation during Clinton's administration was higher than during Bush 43's administration!

How about that?
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Feb, 2009 03:48 pm
@ican711nm,
The conclusion I draw from that is that you can raise taxes that do not hurt economic growth and treasury revenues and you can raise taxes that do. In fact the Clinton administration did initiate a substantial tax increase but he and the GOP controlled Congress also lowered a lot of taxes and fees, but the tax increases under Clinton did not create an immediate slowdown nor did it prevent the county from sliding into a periodic recession at the end of his tenure--a recession that GWB inherited and was greatly exacerbated by 9/11.

But it is also proof positive that carefully planned and structured tax reductions do not necessarily reduce treasury revenues too. To be reasonable, we cannot dogmaticly say that every tax increase reduces revenues nor can we say that every tax decrease increases revenues. Each occasion has to be evaluated on its own merits.

What we can say with 100% certainty is that whatever is the amount of taxes are collected to increase the national treasury, Congress will spend more than what is collected until we begin electing a majority of leaders who hold and demonstrate MAC values. Saying that we need to raise taxes is a pretty good way to say that we trust Congress to spend our money on our behalf more than we trust ourselves to spend it on our behalf.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Feb, 2009 04:07 pm
Quote:

http://cato.org/pubs/policy_report/v30n6/cpr30n6-1.html

Cato Policy Report, November/December 2008

Are We Ailing from Too Much Deregulation?
David R. Henderson
...
Fannie, Freddie, and the Housing Crunch

On housing prices, Gosselin claims that "the rise in house prices and the recent plunge grew out of an almost unregulated corner of the mortgage market"the one for riskier loans." But in fact much of this problem arose from regulation. Jeffrey Hummel and I detailed how in Investors' Business Daily ("Blame the Feds, Not the Fed, For Subprime Mortgages," March 23, 2008). Federal government regulation contributed in three ways. First, the federal government helped cause the boom in housing prices by helping cause moral hazard: people taking risks because they know that if things turn out badly, someone else will bear some of the cost. The federal government's semiautonomous mortgage agencies"Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and Ginnie Mae"all buy and resell mortgages. Of the more than $15 trillion in mortgages in existence in early 2008, about one third were owned by, or were securitized by, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, Ginnie Mae, the Federal Housing and Veterans Administration and other government agencies that subsidize mortgages.

Although Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were no longer government agencies during the time period at issue, they were government- sponsored enterprises. Many buyers of their repackaged loans, therefore, assumed an implicit federal-government guarantee. That assumption, as we now know, was all too true. This implicit guarantee caused less scrutiny by lenders than otherwise, which helped drive up housing prices.

The federal government's second contribution to the increase in housing prices was the Community Reinvestment Act. This act, first passed in 1977 and beefed up in 1995, requires banks to lend in high-risk areas that they otherwise would avoid. Banks that fail to comply pay fines and have more difficulty getting approval for mergers and branch expansions. As Stan Liebowitz, a University of Texas economist, has pointed out, a Fannie Mae Foundation report enthusiastically singled out one mortgage lender that followed "the most flexible underwriting criteria permitted." That lender's loans to low-income people had grown to $600 billion by 2003. Its name? Countrywide, the largest U.S. mortgage lender and one of the lenders in the most trouble for its lax lending practices.

Finally, a little-noted change in regulations by the comptroller of the currency in December 2005 acted as the trigger. The comptroller made it mandatory for banks to require minimum payments on credit card balances, causing increases of at least 50 percent for most cards and as much as 100 percent on others. Many people who hold subprime mortgages are people for whom a higher monthly payment on a credit card would be a problem. Whereas before this regulation, many people's priorities would have been mortgage first, credit card second, the new regulation caused many borrowers to reverse the order. Thus the comptroller's seemingly small increase in regulation had the unintended effect of causing some mortgage borrowers to default.


This is not to say, of course, that private businesses never do anything stupid unless it is caused by bad government policy. Certainly, many actors in the private sector put their and other people's money at risk in absurd way. It is safe to say, though, that in the case of the subprime mess, regulation and government subsidies deserve much of the blame.
...

Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Feb, 2009 04:09 pm
@Foxfyre,
I could further say that tax relief that in any way benefits the 'rich' seem to be the most onerous taxes in public opinion. They are especially despised by those on the Left.

But it would appear that tax relief in which the 'rich' benefits have especially generated sharp increases in the national treasury. Why? Because it is the 'rich' who provide the venture capital, who save money so that it is available for others to borrow, who invest in the growth of commerce and industry, who fund the foundations and endowments, and who create most of the jobs either directly or through big ticket purchases that enable others to keep people working. Allow the rich to keep more of their money and they use a whole lot of it in ways that benefits the rest of us.

It also appears obvious that tax policy that especially punishes the rich may make those plagued with class envy feel smug and satisfied, but it will almost invariably limit the opportunities and options available to the rest of us while not appreciably increasing the public treasury if it increases it any at all.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Feb, 2009 04:14 pm
@ican711nm,
I think that CATO piece is spot on accurate, Ican.

It is a classic example of good intentions producing unintended negative consequences. It also falls under the category of we 'hurt those we love'.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sat 7 Feb, 2009 04:19 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxie, You're doing it again! Compare that to 1) the rate of inflation, and 2) the growth in the US work force. Then compare.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Feb, 2009 04:25 pm
@ican711nm,
CORRECTION
Quote:
AND, inflation during Clinton's administration was ONLY SLIGHTLY LOWER than during Bush 43's administration!


0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Feb, 2009 04:38 pm
Quote:

http://www.reason.com/news/show/34826.html
Re: Envy--Research by two British economists, Daniel Zizzo of Oxford University and Andrew Oswald of Warwick University: "Are People Willing to Pay to Reduce Others' Incomes?"
...
Zizzo and Oswald set up an experiment in which groups of four subjects were initially given nearly equal amounts of money. They then played a computerized gambling game. During the game two of the players received an extra endowment of cash, a fact to which all of the players were alerted.

At the conclusion of the gambling sessions, each player was given the chance to spend his own money to anonymously "burn" some of the cash won by his fellow participants. It was made clear that there was no prospect that burning his fellow player's winnings would in any way make him richer. In fact, if he chose to burn another player's money, he had to pay between 2 cents and 25 cents for each dollar subtracted from the other player's take.

Zizzo and Oswald found that nearly two-thirds of players happily paid for the privilege of impoverishing their fellow participants. Even as the price of burning went up, the percentage of people who chose to burn other players did not fall substantially.

Why would people pay to hurt others without any benefit to themselves? Is it not the height of irrationality for a person to harm himself just so he can harm another more? Zizzo and Oswald believe the desire to burn other people's cash "appears to be strong evidence for the existence of some kind of envy or concern for fairness."
...
Socialists often claim that capitalism is based on humanity's worst impulses, greed and selfishness, despite the fact that people who live in societies that participate in markets tend to be more generous and cooperative than those who don't. Oswald and Zizzo's research suggests that socialists who believe that their ideology appeals to humanity's better instincts have it backwards. Envy is behind the leveling spirit of socialism. A truly generous and rational soul would wish others well, especially if they have done no one any harm.

Only an open society in which people clearly see that they have an opportunity to rise seems capable of containing and channeling humanity's envy instinct. The task for champions of freedom is to encourage people to want more cows for everybody.
...

Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Feb, 2009 04:41 pm
@cicerone imposter,
You do whatever comparisons you wish CI. Be my guest. I'm sure a thorough analysis of that and data from a competent source would be interesting to include on the thread. Ican and I, however, are addressing a totally different issue that is completely unaffected by either the inflation rate or the number of workers in the job force.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Feb, 2009 04:48 pm
"The task for champions of freedom is to encourage people to want more [wealth] for everybody." Not want less for those who have more, and more for those who have less.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Feb, 2009 04:53 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

Quote:

http://www.reason.com/news/show/34826.html
Re: Envy--Research by two British economists, Daniel Zizzo of Oxford University and Andrew Oswald of Warwick University: "Are People Willing to Pay to Reduce Others' Incomes?"
...
Zizzo and Oswald set up an experiment in which groups of four subjects were initially given nearly equal amounts of money. They then played a computerized gambling game. During the game two of the players received an extra endowment of cash, a fact to which all of the players were alerted.

At the conclusion of the gambling sessions, each player was given the chance to spend his own money to anonymously "burn" some of the cash won by his fellow participants. It was made clear that there was no prospect that burning his fellow player's winnings would in any way make him richer. In fact, if he chose to burn another player's money, he had to pay between 2 cents and 25 cents for each dollar subtracted from the other player's take.

Zizzo and Oswald found that nearly two-thirds of players happily paid for the privilege of impoverishing their fellow participants. Even as the price of burning went up, the percentage of people who chose to burn other players did not fall substantially.

Why would people pay to hurt others without any benefit to themselves? Is it not the height of irrationality for a person to harm himself just so he can harm another more? Zizzo and Oswald believe the desire to burn other people's cash "appears to be strong evidence for the existence of some kind of envy or concern for fairness."
...
Socialists often claim that capitalism is based on humanity's worst impulses, greed and selfishness, despite the fact that people who live in societies that participate in markets tend to be more generous and cooperative than those who don't. Oswald and Zizzo's research suggests that socialists who believe that their ideology appeals to humanity's better instincts have it backwards. Envy is behind the leveling spirit of socialism. A truly generous and rational soul would wish others well, especially if they have done no one any harm.

Only an open society in which people clearly see that they have an opportunity to rise seems capable of containing and channeling humanity's envy instinct. The task for champions of freedom is to encourage people to want more cows for everybody.
...



Fascinating. And I don't have a doubt that there are those who so resent the success of others that they would do that so that their own failures and/or lesser accomplishments would not be so obvious.

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Feb, 2009 04:54 pm
@Foxfyre,
There are nuts all over the world; that's a fact.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Feb, 2009 05:02 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

"The task for champions of freedom is to encourage people to want more [wealth] for everybody." Not want less for those who have more, and more for those who have less.


Egg-sactly.

Karl Marx had the well intended but misguided view that if you could just force society to structure itself so that everybody enjoyed the same benefits and assets, then we would have as close to utopia as can be achieved in this life.

But Marx did not allow for human behavior, human ambition, human greed, human willingness to leach off others, human distaste for being taken advantage of by others. And it was these characteristics of humanity that doomed Marxian ideals to failure. No government was possible who held the ideals as more important than self-serving power, influence, and profit and no society was subjected to it that did not become mostly impoverished, oppressed, and without hope or opportunity to help themselves.

A reasonably regulated Capitalism, however, seeks to be all that we are capable of being, and when it is manifested in a free and compassionate society, all persons are encouraged and have incentive to be all that we can be. The government then serves best by performing its constitutionally mandated responsibilities, enacting sufficient laws to prohibit the people from doing injustice and violence to each other, and then get out of the way.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Feb, 2009 05:08 pm
@Foxfyre,
foxfyre wrote:
Fascinating. And I don't have a doubt that there are those who so resent the success of others that they would do that so that their own failures and/or lesser accomplishments would not be so obvious.

I have no doubt about that either. Emulating those more successful than ourselves appears to be going out of style for a rapidly increasing number of Americans.

Perhaps we have evidence of that provided by some of the participants on this thread!
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Feb, 2009 05:24 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
Karl Marx had the well intended but misguided view that if you could just force society to structure itself so that everybody enjoyed the same benefits and assets, then we would have as close to utopia as can be achieved in this life.

But Marx did not allow for human behavior, human ambition, human greed, human willingness to leach off others, human distaste for being taken advantage of by others. And it was these characteristics of humanity that doomed Marxian ideals to failure. No government was possible who held the ideals as more important than self-serving power, influence, and profit and no society was subjected to it that did not become mostly impoverished, oppressed, and without hope or opportunity to help themselves.

A reasonably regulated Capitalism, however, seeks to be all that we are capable of being, and when it is manifested in a free and compassionate society, all persons are encouraged and have incentive to be all that we can be. The government then serves best by performing its constitutionally mandated responsibilities, enacting sufficient laws to prohibit the people from doing injustice and violence to each other, and then get out of the way.

Excellent! Superb! Outstanding!

I wish I could think of words adequate to describe just how wonderful that essay of yours is, and how important it is for it to be shared with our own and everyone else's children, grand children, and great grand children.

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Feb, 2009 05:32 pm
@Foxfyre,
You people miss the whole thesis on why communism never works.

Foxie wrote:
Quote:
But Marx did not allow for human behavior, human ambition, human greed, human willingness to leach off others, human distaste for being taken advantage of by others. And it was these characteristics of humanity that doomed Marxian ideals to failure.


Try again.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Feb, 2009 05:37 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Why don't you tell us why communism doesn't work if that is where your interest is, CI. I wasn't discussing communism. I was discussing Karl Marx and his philosophy.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Feb, 2009 06:03 pm
@Foxfyre,
Here in a nutshell is Karl Marx's philosophy:
Quote:
On the one hand, Marx argued for a systemic understanding of socioeconomic change. He argued that the structural contradictions within capitalism necessitate its end, giving way to communism:
“ The development of Modern Industry, therefore, cuts from under its feet the very foundation on which the bourgeoisie produces and appropriates products. What the bourgeoisie, therefore, produces, above all, are its own grave-diggers. Its fall and the victory of the proletariat are equally inevitable. ”

" (The Communist Manifesto)[6]
 

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