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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2009 01:37 pm
Noting an increase in the deficit is pertinent. Noting a decrease in the deficit is pertinent. Noting a decrease in the projected increase in the deficit is pertinent.

Far more pertinent than the raw numbers, however, is WHY an increase or decrease in the deficit/debt occurred, what was the catalyst behind it, who was responsible for pushing it, who supported it and why, and what was accomplished in the process of achieving it.

Only Bill Clinton and Bush 43 has had a Republican controlled Congress at least since FDR and perhaps in the Century, and each had a Republican controlled Congress for 6 of their 8 years. To blame or give credit solely to the President without consideration of the actions of whatever Congress is absurd.

So the ideolologues, speaking from partisanship or prejudice can continue to slander this person or that person as if that person was a dictator with unchallenged powers, or we can do it the MAC way and analyze why something happened as it did and/or the net benefit or detriment that resulted.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2009 01:57 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxie wrote:
Quote:
To blame or give credit solely to the President without consideration of the actions of whatever Congress is absurd.


Please explain to us why this is so, and please explain them in terms of the president's actions?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2009 02:01 pm
Well since entire history courses are devoted to this subject, CI, it would be helpful if you would pick out one particular government action and perhaps we could discuss that?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2009 02:04 pm
One would think the mantra of personal responsibility would call for those who sign bills to be held responsible for, yaknow, signing the bill.

The truth is Reagan was massively popular for most of his term and could have vetoed any bill he liked. Would it have started a confrontation with the Congress? Of course! Tough ****! That's part of the job of president.

Republicans should be willing to assign Reagan blame for the things he did wrong as well as glory for the things that he got right. But they can't, because somehow along the way, they Sainted him. So he can do no wrong, it's always someone else's fault.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2009 02:08 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Frank Apisa, you post too many falsities
Quote:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2051527/posts
Partial History of U.S. Federal Income Tax Rates Since 1913
Applicable Year Income brackets
-------------- First bracket ---- Top bracket --- Source
1913-1915 - 1% 7% Census
1916 - 2% 15% Census
1917 - 2% 67% Census
1918 - 6% 73% Census
1919-1920 - 4% 73% Census
1921 - 4% 73% Census
1922 - 4% 56% Census
1923 - 3% 56% Census
1924 - 1.5% 46% Census
1925-1928 - 1.5% 25% Census
1929 - 0.375% 24% Census
1930-1931 - 1.125% 25% Census
1932-1933 - 4% 63% Census
1934-1935 - 4% 63% Census
1936-1939 - 4% 79% Census
1940 - 4.4% 81.1% Census
1941 - 10% 81% Census
1942-1943 - 19% 88% Census
1944-1945 - 23% 94% Census
1946-1947 - 19% 86.45% Census
1948-1949 - 16.6% 82.13% Census
1950 - 17.4% 84.36% Census
1951 - 20.4% 91% Census
1952-1953 - 22.2% 92% Census
1954-1963 - 20% 91% Census
1964 - 16% 77% Census
1965-1967 - 14% 70% Census
1968 - 14% 75.25% Census
1969 - 14% 77% Census
1970 - 14% 71.75% Census
1971-1981 15 brackets 14% 70% IRS
1982-1986 12 brackets 12% 50% IRS
1987 5 brackets 11% 38.5% IRS
1988-1990 3 brackets 15% 33% IRS
1991-1992 3 brackets 15% 31% IRS
1993-2000 5 brackets 15% 39.6% IRS
2001 5 brackets 15% 39.1% IRS
2002 6 brackets 10% 38.6% IRS
2003-2007 6 brackets 10% 35% IRS



Sources:

Census: Historical Statistics of the United States: Colonial Times to 1970 p.1095
IRS: Internal Revenue Service, Instructions for Form 1040 (for each year listed)





cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2009 02:10 pm
@ican711nm,
What are the "falsities?"

From FactCheck:
Quote:
Treasury Tax Expert to Bush: Clinton's Increase WASN'T The Biggest.
April 16, 2004
Updated: May 22, 2007
Study published by Bush's Treasury Department contradicts Bush's campaign.
Summary
In speeches and fundraising appeals the Bush campaign keeps making a distorted claim that Clinton 's 1993 tax increase -- supported by Kerry -- was "the biggest in history."

Republicans have been repeating this gross overstatement for more than a decade, but now there's less justification for it than ever. The GOP claim is contradicted by a study published last year by the Office of Tax Analysis of Bush's own Treasury Department.


Another article (by Krugman):
Quote:

Howler Banner Graphic
Caveat lector

SPIN AND TAXES! Krugman offers a useful point, counteracting a decade of spinning:

TUESDAY, JUNE 8, 2004

SPIN AND TAXES: This week will be a time for tributes from those who admire President Reagan and his legacy. But whatever one thinks of the Reagan years, this week could present a chance to learn more about an important part of our recent history. Many scribes have begun to offer their views on aspects of the Reagan presidency. Paul Krugman’s column in this morning’s Times is a good"and useful"example.

“Ronald Reagan does hold a special place in the annals of tax policy, and not just as the patron saint of tax cuts,” Krugman writes. Krugman notes that Reagan “followed his huge 1981 tax cut with two large tax increases.” Here’s the skinny on Reagan Tax Increase number 1:

KRUGMAN: The first Reagan tax increase came in 1982. By then it was clear that the budget projections used to justify the 1981 tax cut were wildly optimistic. In response, Mr. Reagan agreed to a sharp rollback of corporate tax cuts, and a smaller rollback of individual income tax cuts. Over all, the 1982 tax increase undid about a third of the 1981 cut; as a share of G.D.P., the increase was substantially larger than Mr. Clinton’s 1993 tax increase.

We’ll return to that highlighted point. For the record, here’s Krugman’s description of Reagan Tax Increase 2:

KRUGMAN: I’m referring to the Social Security Reform Act of 1983, which followed the recommendations of a commission led by Alan Greenspan. Its key provision was an increase in the payroll tax that pays for Social Security and Medicare hospital insurance.

For many middle- and low-income families, this tax increase more than undid any gains from Mr. Reagan's income tax cuts. In 1980, according to Congressional Budget Office estimates, middle-income families with children paid 8.2 percent of their income in income taxes, and 9.5 percent in payroll taxes. By 1988 the income tax share was down to 6.6 percent"but the payroll tax share was up to 11.8 percent, and the combined burden was up, not down.

For those who don’t want to do the math, Krugman’s “middle-income families with children” were paying a combined burden of 18.4 percent by 1988, up from 17.7 percent in 1980. For these middle-class families, Reagan"who did reduce taxes overall"had actually raised their tax burden.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2009 02:11 pm
Quote:
Republicans should be willing to assign Reagan blame for the things he did wrong as well as glory for the things that he got right. But they can't, because somehow along the way, they Sainted him. So he can do no wrong, it's always someone else's fault.


You don't keep up very well do you. We had several pages of discussion of why Reagan went along with those high deficits proposed by Congress, not him, awhile back in this thread. You can probably find it if you look.

As for Reagan doing no wrong? Nope. He absolutely did do some wrong stuff and he has been quite thoroughly spanked by at least some of the MACs. One I can think of specifically that has been discussed on the Immigration thread but don't know that it came up in this one was his approach to dealing with illegal immigration. He tried to get it right but he only made things worse and didn't adequately lead on enforcement of the laws he agreed to which has exacerbated the current problems. So he gets an F for that from me. Those who want illegal immigration controls relaxed probably think he did just fine.

That's just one example that I can think of on short notice.

It would be nice if there were any infallible saints out there available for election to high office. Unfortunately there are not.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2009 02:13 pm
@ican711nm,

SEE GRAPH
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2009 02:16 pm
@ican711nm,

SEE GRAPH
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2009 02:17 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Quote:
Republicans should be willing to assign Reagan blame for the things he did wrong as well as glory for the things that he got right. But they can't, because somehow along the way, they Sainted him. So he can do no wrong, it's always someone else's fault.


You don't keep up very well do you. We had several pages of discussion of why Reagan went along with those high deficits proposed by Congress, not him, awhile back in this thread. You can probably find it if you look.


You seem to forget that someone reminded you that the President proposes the budget and the Congress passes it. Congress didn't create those budgets, the Exec branch did. I read that exchange just the other day. You want to blame the Congress for what really is the Prez' responsibility.

Quote:
As for Reagan doing no wrong? Nope. He absolutely did do some wrong stuff and he has been quite thoroughly spanked by at least some of the MACs. One I can think of specifically that has been discussed on the Immigration thread but don't know that it came up in this one was his approach to dealing with illegal immigration. He tried to get it right but he only made things worse and didn't adequately lead on enforcement of the laws he agreed to which has exacerbated the current problems. So he gets an F for that from me. Those who want illegal immigration controls relaxed probably think he did just fine.

That's just one example that I can think of on short notice.

It would be nice if there were any infallible saints out there available for election to high office. Unfortunately there are not.


You could try admitting that under his watch the deficit tripled, and it was his fault, because at the end of the day the buck stops with the president. All this yammering about the Congress is ridiculous, if Reagan were against tripling the deficit he wouldn't have signed the bills.

Just say it once - I dare ya.

Cycloptichorn
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2009 02:19 pm
@ican711nm,
Quote:

SEE CHART
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2009 02:22 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Republicans (especially MACs) are good at blaming congress for what the president does; they don't understand the term "the buck stops here." The president "is" responsible for the creation of the budget.

The federal budget process for the US:
Quote:
Although Congress has the “power of the purse strings” and writes the actual budget legislation each year, the President starts off the annual budget process by submitting a White House budget request with baseline figures. The President’s proposed budget is a set of Federal objectives with price tags attached, and it provides a spending framework for Congress to use in deciding how much money to spend, what to spend it on and how to raise the money that will be spent each year.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2009 02:25 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Also:

Quote:
Congress Weighs In

In most years, the Congress takes the White House budget request after it is proposed and translates it into the fiscal year budget resolution. The House of Representatives and the Senate each have their own Appropriations Committees that interpret the White House budget proposal, modify it and assemble a fiscal year budget resolution with a total figure to be spent. The money is parsed out into 13 appropriations bills and the President’s Budget Director from the OMB lobbies Congress to keep the White House budget proposal as intact as possible.

When the fiscal year appropriations bills are finally completed and passed by the House and Senate, they are sent to the White House for the President’s signature. The appropriations bills can be packaged together, but are typically passed as individual bills and signed separately. The President can then sign each bill or veto it. If the President vetoes one or more of the 13 fiscal year appropriations bills, Congress must figure out how to modify the legislation so that it will be signed by the President when it is passed through Congress again.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2009 02:26 pm
@ican711nm,


Good find Ican. I hope everybody will keep clicking through the 'next' at the lower right of each graph to move on to the next graph. There is information here that should boost the confidence in Democratic Presidents and Republican Presidents and does put things into better perspective.

A careful analysis, however, needs to include an understanding of dramatically increasing population growth as well as the changing demographics of the population coupled with the net effect of the entitlement programs that are moving into full maturity with significant effects on government resources.

And that I think should be a huge factor in whether we now support increasing those entitlements and adding more to them.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2009 02:44 pm
@Foxfyre,
The first graph pretty much tells all; expenditure increased dramatically while revenue dropped - under Bush.

Reagan and Bush were the biggest spenders. The MACS sure knows how to spend! LOL
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2009 02:58 pm
Yes, the deficit increased dramatically during Reagan’s administration; much less so during the Carter administration. But before you give Reagan an F on that or Carter an A, consider why it happened. Carter, with a willing Congress, raided the defense budget to fund social programs and Reagan inherited a decimated, tattered, and battered military structure. As Reagan ran on a ‘peace through strength’ platform, he rebuilt the military and most of his deficits can be placed in that build up. To get what he wanted there, he had to compromise with Congress on what it wanted. As long as they got what they wanted, he could have anything for the military he asked for. In our previous discussions on this thread, some of us considered whether we got our money's worth for that.

I remember President Reagan discussing the budget in a press conference saying that he cannot spend a dime that has not been authorized by Congress for him to spend. He was right. And that is why any President can be blamed for not leading in the budget process, but no President can be blamed for the budget that Congress passes. Can he veto the budget? Yes he can, but to what purpose? The government must have money to function. Unless both he and Congress start out in agreement, no budget is possible without compromise. He can also veto any of the various appropriations bills that authorizes the funds to be spent. When he does, however, that part of government simply shuts down and cannot function at all. Few Presidents are willing to inflict the kinds of pain that could inflict on the innocent.

Given the requirement of the Congress to write and pass the budget, it still remains to be seen whether the Constitution allows the President to have a line item veto. I think it would be far more practical to make it illegal for government to bundle different kinds of expenditures into a single bill. That way, if somebody wants a bridge to nowhere, members of Congress would have to vote straight up or straight down on that one single thing. That would provide a transparency in the process that would be refreshing and self-reforming and the President could veto that if he wanted to without having to veto a lot of good stuff included in the same bill.

The President does submit his proposed budget to Congress as he is the chief executive of all government agencies and their requests for funding go to him. Included in those requests are what he would like to accomplish through those agencies.

As often as not, Congress declares the President’s proposed budget dead on arrival and does their own thing though of course they will include funding for all those government agencies. More often than not Congress will include more in the budget for more things than the President requests. That has been true every year in the GWB administration. I believe it was not always true in the Clinton administration but can't say that for sure.

Quote:
The Federal Budget

The federal budget process is similar to the regular legislative process, but it is also different in some very important ways. First, because the Constitution requires that any bill raising revenue must originate in the House of Representatives, the House has traditionally taken the lead in the budget process.

Another distinctive feature of the budget process is that the President's role is more formalized and, therefore, significant. The Congress, by statute, has required the President to submit a budget to the Congress each year. By doing so, the President establishes the starting point and the framework of the annual budget debate.

The final significant difference between the budget process and the normal legislative process is that there are three distinct stages of federal budget making. First, the Congress passes a Budget which provides the framework for overall federal government taxation and spending for the upcoming year. Then, before any money can be officially appropriated or set aside for a given program or purpose, that program or purpose must be authorized. When a federal program is "authorized" it is legally established, extended or modified. At the same time, procedures for implementing the program and spending money on it are outlined, usually in detail. According to House and Senate rules, only after a program is authorized can money be appropriated for use on that program. The amount of money authorized for a program is generally less than the actual amount appropriated for it.
http://www.thisnation.com/budget.html


Quote:
What is a Continuing Resolution?

The national government's budget calendar runs from October 1st through September 30th of each year. Each federal department, agency and program is authorized to spend congressionally specified amounts of money. That money cannot be spent, however, unless it is explicitly appropriated for a given purpose. For example, an agency might be authorized to spend $2 billion on a program, but it does not actually have that money to spend until it is appropriated for that program.

Each year, the Congress must pass and the President must sign 13 separate appropriations bills by October 1st to fund all of the national government's departments, agencies and programs for the following year. If the Congress and President fail to pass all of the appropriations bills, there will be some agencies and programs that do not have the money appropriated to them that they are authorized to spend. In other words, there will be no money to spend on some legally established programs and national government functions.
In most instances, the Congress and the President will agree to a Continuing Resolution which temporarily funds the programs and agencies for which appropriations bills have not been passed. A Continuing Resolution (CR) must be passed by both houses of Congress and signed by the President.

Generally, a CR funds agencies or programs for a month or two at the same funding level as the previous year. The main purpose of a CR is to keep the government running long enough for the Congress and President to work out an agreement on all 13 appropriations bills. Currently (on November 8, 1999), the national government is functioning under a Continuing Resolution while the President and Congress work out their differences on the remaining appropriations bills.

While the President and the Congress almost always agree to Continuing Resolutions to keep the government "open," a breakdown in budget negotiations between President Clinton and the Republican Congress in 1995 led to a temporary government "shutdown." Having failed to agree on a new Continuing Resolution after the previous one had expired and having failed to agree on a number of key appropriations bills, several departments and agencies were left with no money to spend. For a short period of time, some parts of the national government did not function.
http://www.thisnation.com/question/003.html


cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2009 03:05 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxie, The president's budget is not "dead on arrival." After congress works on the budget, the president signs off on it which means he "approves" it.

The buck stops at the president's desk.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2009 03:07 pm
@Foxfyre,
The eternal cry of the MAC..

"It's not MY FAULT I did it."



Reagan presented budgets that were close to what Congress authorized. To claim he is not responsible is silly. Both Congress AND the President are responsible.


The President is free to veto spending bills and Congress can pass continuing resolutions while the details are worked out. What happened under Clinton was he vetoed a bill and Congress tried to blackmail him by not passing a continuing resolution. We all know how that worked out as Congress was blamed for the failure to pass legislation as a stop gap while they worked on a compromise.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2009 03:12 pm
@parados,
To explore that further, Bush left his budget for Obama to finish:

Quote:
Continuing Resolution

This complicated Federal budget process goes on every year. In years that the Congress and the President cannot agree on an overall budget resolution or pass all 13 appropriations bills, the outstanding appropriations are wrapped into a Continuing Resolution in which the budget is funded at current fiscal year levels.

The fiscal year 2009 budget is such an example. It is called the Consolidated Security, Disaster Assistance, and Continuing Appropriations Act, 2009 and it includes a Continuing Resolution to keep the Federal government operating until March 6, 2009.

Because there is a Continuing Resolution, the new President and Congress elected in November will have to take up the fiscal year 2009 budget soon after taking office in January 2009.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2009 03:55 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:

The eternal cry of the MAC..

"It's not MY FAULT I did it."



Reagan presented budgets that were close to what Congress authorized. To claim he is not responsible is silly. Both Congress AND the President are responsible.


The President is free to veto spending bills and Congress can pass continuing resolutions while the details are worked out. What happened under Clinton was he vetoed a bill and Congress tried to blackmail him by not passing a continuing resolution. We all know how that worked out as Congress was blamed for the failure to pass legislation as a stop gap while they worked on a compromise.


Yup. Fox seems to forget that presidents HAVE stood up to Congress, which proves that they have the ability/responsibility to do so if the budgets truly do not match their desires.

My guess is that the Conservatives also don't like discussing his several tax increases either, and how that directly led to the rises in revenues...

Cycloptichorn
 

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