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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2009 05:08 pm
It is interesting that Cheney is saying that Bush should have pardoned Libby. This would have saved the latter from paying a big fine and forever losing his law license.

The truth is that Cheney and others are scared to death that Libby will write a tell-all book. He is certain to get a big advance for one, and he knows where the bodies are buried.
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2009 05:12 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

Left wing socialist liberals are racists because they repeatedly call all right wingers racists.


http://s92722971.onlinehome.us/stuff/wtf.jpg
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2009 06:27 pm
@Diest TKO,
You contend that ALL racism is based on hate.
I say that isnt true.

EVERYONE is a racist of one sort or another.
It may be because of a cultural bias, it may be from ignorance (and I mean lack of knowledge), or it may be simply because someone is an ass.

For you to claim that ALL racism is based on hatred shows a large lack of understanding of racism, IMHO.
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2009 06:35 pm
@Advocate,
I'm glad he didnt pardon Libby.

If Blatham ever has the nerve to show up again, he lost a bet and owes me $1600 (or $2000 CDN), but he apparently doesnt have the nerve to admit he lost and pay his debt.
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2009 08:24 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

You contend that ALL racism is based on hate.
I say that isnt true.

EVERYONE is a racist of one sort or another.
It may be because of a cultural bias, it may be from ignorance (and I mean lack of knowledge), or it may be simply because someone is an ass.

For you to claim that ALL racism is based on hatred shows a large lack of understanding of racism, IMHO.

I'll budge to one degree, and that is fear. My views of which when related to racism are that they are the two sides of the same coin. Racism is an exercise in hatred, and I don't have to guess or use my imagination. It's origin can be benign or obtuse, but the product is the same in the end. You want to bring some examples of what you think racism is outside of hatred or fear, be my guest, but you've been striking out so far.

T
K
O
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2009 09:30 pm
@Diest TKO,
I will contend that not all racism is out of ignorance. I believe fear may have some relevance in certain circumstances.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 06:57 am
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
For the record, I did not make the statement Thomas is attributing to me here.

No you didn't. Cycloptichorn did. My mistake. Sorry.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 07:02 am
@genoves,
genoves wrote:
Thomas- It would appear that Affirmative Action, which has been utilized for nearly 40 years in the USA and, from time to time, been reduced in scope by the US Supreme Court, would, by this time, have produced legions of Black PhD's in Science, Math, and Computer Science. Any review of the race of Phd's in the USA will reveal that blacks, even after 40 years of artificial advancement under Affirmative Action, have not done very well.

I'm pretty sure there are reputable statisticians who track the number of doctorates by race. Why don't you cite one of them so we have objective data to talk about?

[/quote]MANY OF THEM USED AFFIRMATIVE ACTION TO BEACCEPTED AT LAW SCHOOLS WHERE THEY WERE STRUGGLING AND USUALLY ENDED UP AT THE BOTTOM OF THE CLASS.

lAW FIRMS KNOW THIS AND SHY AWAY FROM CHOOSING THEM.

AFFIRMATIVE ACTION HAS BEEN A FAILURE FOR BLACKS IN THE USA[/quote]
Even if the premise of what you say is true, your conclusion doesn't follow. From the perspective of Blacks graduating from law school, the measure of success for AA isn't how they are doing compared to the rest of their class. The measure is how they are doing compared to their not going to law school. Graduating at the bottom of your class in college still gets you better jobs than graduating from high school.
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 10:38 am
@mysteryman,
Merely awaiting verification. If you check about, you'll find that secret pardons aren't infrequent at the state level. As Dean explains below, there's nothing legally stopping Bush from having signed a pardon and simply not divulging that he has done so. But have faith, mm. This looks likely to be clarified up the road.
http://rawstory.com/rawreplay/?p=2810
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 10:41 am
Quote:
The Republican Party that is in such disrepute today is not the party of Reagan. It is the party of Rush Limbaugh, of Ann Coulter, of Newt Gingrich, of George W. Bush, of Karl Rove. It is not a conservative party, it is a party built on the blind and narrow pursuit of power.

Mickey Edwards, founding trustee of the Heritage Foundation
full opinion piece here (and it's definitely worthwhile) http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-edwards24-2009jan24,0,3344794.story
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 10:53 am
@Thomas,
Is there any real evidence that Obama benefited from affirmative action?
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 10:53 am
@Thomas,
Or at the top, director of the Hayden Planetarium and host of Nova Science and author of several books:

http://scienceblogs.com/framing-science/DeTyson.jpg


Board of Directors
Neil DeGrasse Tyson
President of the Board of Directors, The Planetary Society
Neil deGrasse Tyson


A childhood glimpse of the Moon through binoculars helped steer Neil deGrasse Tyson towards his lifelong passion for science, space exploration, and unraveling the universe's far flung mysteries. Eventually, that closer look at another world also led Tyson to his role on The Planetary Society's Board of Directors, serving first as Vice President for three years and now as Chairman of the Board.

An astrophysicist with the American Museum of Natural History and the Frederick P. Rose Director of the Hayden Planetarium, Tyson remains close to his hometown roots in New York City where he graduated from the Bronx High School of Science. Tyson earned his BA in Physics from Harvard and his PhD in Astrophysics from Columbia.

While Tyson has focused his early research primarily on stellar evolution and galactic structure, he has also devoted considerable energy to educating the public. Tyson recently hosted the four-part television series Origins on PBS and has written numerous books on the universe and humanity's place within it, including his own memoir, The Sky is Not the Limit: Adventures of an Urban Astrophysicist. Tyson is also a monthly essayist for Natural History magazine with the column, "Universe."

Tyson's professional research interests include star formation, exploding stars, dwarf galaxies, and the structure of our Milky Way, working with data from the Hubble Space Telescope, as well as from telescopes in California, New Mexico, Arizona, and the Andes Mountains of Chile.

In 2001, President George W. Bush appointed Tyson to serve on a 12-member commission that studied the Future of the US Aerospace Industry. The final report was published in 2002 and contained recommendations (for Congress and for the major agencies of the government) that would promote a thriving future of transportation, space exploration, and national security.

In 2004, Tyson was once again appointed by President Bush to serve on a commission, this time focusing on the Implementation of the United States Space Exploration Policy, dubbed the "Moon, Mars, and Beyond" commission.

A man of many parts, Tyson not only has had an asteroid named after him " 13123 Tyson " but also was voted the Sexiest Astrophysicist Alive by People magazine in 2008.


OR


http://aaas.fas.harvard.edu/faculty/j_lorand_matory/index.html
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 10:58 am
@blatham,
What a terrific article. I forwarded it to two friends of mine...one an ardent liberal and the other an ardent conservative. I'll bet they both will nod their heads in agreement at many juctures.

This guy knows how to write...and more importantly, how to think.
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 11:07 am
@Frank Apisa,
I concur -- I've E mailed that link to my address book, and there are conservatives who will realize their ideology is in chaos.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 11:44 am
@blatham,
blatham, Great article; one that people like Foxie et al will never comprehend. They have their own definition of American Conservatism, and wonder why we continue to challenge them. LOL
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 11:48 am
There is a huge difference between Republicans being in chaos and conservatism being in chaos. From the beginning of this thread I maintained that Republicans fell out of favor and lost power when they abanoned the conservative ideology that put them into power. When some of the party veered to far right extremism and some adopted neoconservatism to the extreme and some veered too far left, there weren't enough MACs left to sustain the trust of the people.

Early on Nimh disputed that with his charts and graphs and statistics, but I still believe I am right.

When we MACs raise up another leader with the common sense and vision of a Newt Gingrich (hopefully without the personal baggage) or some others, along with the ability to define and sell that vision, the MACs will return to power because I believe more Americans share the MACs ideology than do not.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 12:03 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxie wrote:
Quote:
"When we MACs raise up another leader with the common sense and vision of a Newt Gingrich..."


And in the mean time, the present American Conservatives loves Sarah Palin. LOL
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 12:18 pm
What does MAC's stand for?

Marginally Addled Conservatives

-------------------------------------------------------
"... Reaganism and common sense."

These do not belong in such close proximity.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 12:26 pm
DiestTKO coined the term earlier in the thread when he got tired of typing out the whole thing:

MAC = "Modern American Conservative" as I and a few others have attempted to define that which, more than any other philosophy, is closest to classical liberalsm. The term was coined to distinguish it from old fashioned rigid conservatism as the word is defined in the dictionary and some wish to assign to all conservatives.

The term was coined to distinguish from some of the doctrine of the neocons that MACs do not embrace.

The term was coined to distinguish from the far right extremists also who promote some doctrine that MACs do not embrace.

The term was coined to distinguish from modern American liberalism....the MALs? Smile. ..that bears very little resemblance to classical liberalism.

Again here is Wiki's definition of Classical Liberalism that is pretty good and pretty well sums up my definition of MACs:

Quote:
Classical liberalism (also known as traditional liberalism[1], laissez-faire liberalism[2], market liberalism[3] or, outside the United States and Britain, sometimes simply liberalism) is a doctrine stressing individual freedom and limited government. This includes the importance of human rationality, individual property rights, natural rights, the protection of civil liberties, individual freedom from restraint, constitutional limitation of government, free markets, and a gold standard to place fiscal constraints on government[4] as exemplified in the writings of John Locke, Adam Smith, David Hume, David Ricardo, Voltaire, Montesquieu and others. As such, it is the fusion of economic liberalism with political liberalism of the late 18th and 19th centuries.[2] The "normative core" of classical liberalism is the idea that laissez-faire economics will bring about a spontaneous order or invisible hand that benefits the society,[5] though it does not necessarily oppose the state's provision of some basic public goods with what constitutes public goods being seen as very limited.[6] The qualification classical was applied retroactively to distinguish it from more recent, 20th-century conceptions of liberalism and its related movements, such as social liberalism[7], which promotes a more interventionist role for the state in economic matters. Classical liberals are suspicious of all but the most minimal government[8] and object to the welfare state[9].

Ludwig von Mises, Friedrich Hayek, and Milton Friedman, are credited with influencing a revival of classical liberalism in the twentieth century after it fell out of favor beginning in the late nineteenth century and much of the twentieth century.[10][11] In relation to economic issues, this revival is sometimes referred to, mainly by its opponents, as "neoliberalism". The German "ordoliberalism" has a whole different meaning, since the likes of Alexander Rüstow and Wilhelm Röpke have advocated a more interventionist state, as opposed to laissez-faire liberals[12][13]. Classical liberalism has many aspects in common with modern libertarianism, with the terms being used almost interchangeably by those who support limited government.[14][15]

Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 12:35 pm
@Foxfyre,
The one thing I would add to Wiki's definition that would pretty well complete my definition of a MAC is that MACs do not advocate changing what works and do promote preservation of traditional American values that have proven their worth and benefit.
 

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