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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
plainoldme
 
  0  
Reply Fri 8 Apr, 2011 11:56 am


Thanks to the House GOP's decision to add a policy "rider" defunding women's health services provider Planned Parenthood to the budget and Democrats' pushback, abortion has taken center stage in this week's government shutdown battle.

Democrats say a rider to "defund" Planned Parenthood--a national health care provider that also offers abortion services--is a prominent reason why Democrats and Republicans have failed to reach an agreement on how to fund the government past Friday's midnight deadline.

"Now the tea party--among others, but they're the biggest push--is trying to move its extreme social agenda, issues that have nothing to do with funding the government," Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) said Friday on the Senate floor. "They're willing, it appears--clearly, to throw women under the bus even if it means they'll shut down the government. Because that's where we are. That's the one issue that was remaining last night."

Federal law prohibits federal funds from being used to pay for abortions, so Planned Parenthood's abortion services are paid for by private funding. But Republicans, including House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio), have made defunding the organization a priority in the budget battle, seeing it as an opportune time to push their social issue agenda.

Abortion is seen as a political third rail--it's an issue so charged, that any politician who ventures to touch it will be harmed. The exception is social conservatives, whose base largely supports abortion restrictions. The current shutdown battle provides a perfect opportunity for social conservatives--with Congress under pressure to agree on a budget before the midnight deadline, all lawmakers are now being forced to address the Planned Parenthood rider, whether or not it's politically safe.

Social conservatives in Washington, and "pro-life" advocates specifically, have long invoked abortion as a political stalling tactic. In late 2009, Rep. Bart Stupak (D-Mich.) offered an amendment to the president's health care bill to bar federal funds from being used for health insurance that covers elective abortions. The measure, known as the Stupak Amendment, threatened to derail the entire bill.

Ultimately, the Stupak language was dropped and the president's health care law passed, with Stupak's support.

Democrats in Congress have said they will not bend on the proposed rider, especially since federal law already dictates that federal funds cannot be used for abortions.

The GOP-controlled House already voted this year to defund Planned Parenthood, but enough Senate Democrats vowed to oppose that legislation that it had no hope of success in the Democratic-controlled upper chamber.

In the current fight, Democrats have cast the Planned Parenthood rider as a war on women's health. Reid noted Friday on the Senate floor that Planned Parenthood provides cancer screenings, as well as a range of health services such as cervical cancer tests, breast exams and birth control.

"The Republicans want to shut down our nation's government because they want to make it harder for women to get the health services they need," Reid said. Reid claimed Friday morning that Democrats and Republicans have reached an agreement on "cuts and savings," saying riders were the only sticking points remaining.

Both sides are preemptively casting blame for a shutdown.

Boehner said in a brief press conference Friday that Democrats have not agreed to cut spending the degree that would satisfy the GOP. Washington is "not serious about dealing with its spending addiction," Boehner said.

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Apr, 2011 12:01 pm
@plainoldme,
The GOP is doing it again! They're the party that claims they want less government intrusion into our private lives, but they want to control women's body. The hypocrisy is shouting for all women to listen. Why are there women republicans? I'm sure no republican woman is ever raped or the victim of incest.
plainoldme
 
  0  
Reply Fri 8 Apr, 2011 06:53 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Consider the Republican women that we are most familiar with. None of them are exactly rocket scientists. If the cream really does rise to the top, think of the women floating along under sarah palin and michele bachmann and sharron angle. Shudder.
reasoning logic
 
  0  
Reply Fri 8 Apr, 2011 07:11 pm
@plainoldme,
You do know what has suppressed women from being more educated and from having the same rights as men don't you?
reasoning logic
 
  0  
Reply Fri 8 Apr, 2011 08:33 pm
@reasoning logic,
Just in case anyone wants to know, "It was the same reason that neuroscience was suppressed for hundreds of years in my opinion!


http://www.pbs.org/wnet/brain/history/index.html
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  0  
Reply Sun 10 Apr, 2011 12:01 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
The GOP is doing it again! They're the party that claims they want less government intrusion into our private lives, but they want to control women's body. The hypocrisy is shouting for all women to listen. Why are there women republicans? I'm sure no republican woman is ever raped or the victim of incest.
ci, Surely you are informed enough to know that we have always had laws controlling facets of our private lives? These facets would include prostitution, child pornography, drug use, and many other things. I have a question also, what is so different between child sacrifice and abortion? I am sure most people are dead set against child sacrifice. z;Likewise, I believe we can do better than killing our own offspring. At least give them a chance. I also remind you that Margaret Sanger's bliefs about abortion and racist eugenics can be correlated with the racist eugenics of Hitler. There are at least some parallels.
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Apr, 2011 07:13 am
@okie,
Sorry, what Sanger supported is a philosophical thread now considered "negative eugenics," which sought to limit hereditary deficiencies as opposed to "positive eugenics," which encourages the educated and the fit to produce large families. Positive eugenics is best illustrated by Hitler's policy of awarding medals to women judged to be Aryan who gave birth to many children.

Sanger wanted parenthood to be assumed by responsible people. She opposed government control over reproduction and believed parents should make decisions to limit the size of their families. That does not sound like the American right which seeks to abolish not just abortion but, at its most extreme, the abandonment of all birth control measures.

Just look at how many leading Republicans can't keep their flies zipped! I hope they've had vasectomies as those who tout "personal responsibility" should!

So-called negative eugenics is better described with a phrase you often use and for which you are rightly mocked on these boards. That phrase is common sense. A couple descended from Ashkenazi Jews might practice negative eugenics by undergoing genetic testing for heritable diseases common among the Ashkenazi, such as Tay-Sachs. Similarly, an African-American couple might seek genetic counseling because close relatives suffer from Sickle Cell Anemia. Granted, Sickle Cell Anemia is not as common among Blacks as Tay-Sachs is among Ashkenazi Jews, but there are more African-Americans than there are descendants of the Ashkenazi.

However, why would a married couple with Ashkenazi roots produce a child who live no more than four years in vegetative state?

There are right wing elements to Sanger's world view. She wanted to limit immigration to keep out undesirables, much as the people of AZ want to do now.

But your -- to use my father's word -- "harping" on Sanger is a straw man. Sanger's philosophical make-up contained some progressive elements but was largely conservative. You use a straw man because you do not understand facts and you have no idea how to argue. You also lack common sense.

Let me give you a fact, in Sanger's own words: In a chapter from Woman and the New Race (1920) titled "Contraceptives or Abortion?," Sanger wrote, "While there are cases where even the law recognizes an abortion as justifiable if recommended by a physician, I assert that the hundreds of thousands of abortions performed in America each year are a disgrace to civilization."

Sanger did not promote free love. In fact, she supported sexual constraint, which is consistent with the beliefs of her generation.

However, because Sanger was horrified by the use of abortion by poor women to limit the size of their families, she promoted birth control. Her concern was for maternal health.

Interestingly, you join some very progressive people (do I hear your shower running?) in condemning Sanger's desire to purify humanity. However, Sanger also worked to improve the lives of minorities and was admired by many mid-20th C. civil rights leaders, including MLK.

While there are times, okie, when I just wish you would go away and pull your blankets over your head and sleep, there are other times when I think it is good for you to be here, no matter how you are (justifiably) berated. Your lack of intellection and your poor powers of reasoning just might be elevated.

Certainly, you are given information that you could seek out yourself. The down side is that you simply would not be able to interpret it.
okie
 
  0  
Reply Sun 10 Apr, 2011 04:18 pm
@plainoldme,
plainoldme wrote:
Sanger wanted parenthood to be assumed by responsible people.
That hardly makes sense, pom. Would responsible people abort their own offspring and decline to nurture them?.
Quote:
She opposed government control over reproduction and believed parents should make decisions to limit the size of their families.
Her legacy of promoting killing has evolved into the radical left now wanting the government to tax everyone to pay for others to kill their offspring, pom, so I think your statement is just flat wrong.
Quote:
That does not sound like the American right which seeks to abolish not just abortion but, at its most extreme, the abandonment of all birth control measures.
I doubt that very very seriously, pom. I think there are few people that would advocate legislation against birth control. I think the main point to remember is that most of us think we should not be forced to pay for it for others. For example, I do not think it is the function of schools to hand out birth control measures to kids or for taxpayers to support organizations like Planned Parenthood, which does nothing but encourage promiscuity. That could be likened to telling a kid "Don't smoke," but then hand him or her a carton of Camels.
Quote:
A couple descended from Ashkenazi Jews might practice negative eugenics by undergoing genetic testing for heritable diseases common among the Ashkenazi, such as Tay-Sachs. Similarly, an African-American couple might seek genetic counseling because close relatives suffer from Sickle Cell Anemia. Granted, Sickle Cell Anemia is not as common among Blacks as Tay-Sachs is among Ashkenazi Jews, but there are more African-Americans than there are descendants of the Ashkenazi.

However, why would a married couple with Ashkenazi roots produce a child who live no more than four years in vegetative state?
I don't know, pom, but I would say they should get the best medical advice before they even marrry, and then make their decision.
Quote:
There are right wing elements to Sanger's world view. She wanted to limit immigration to keep out undesirables, much as the people of AZ want to do now. But your -- to use my father's word -- "harping" on Sanger is a straw man. Sanger's philosophical make-up contained some progressive elements but was largely conservative. You use a straw man because you do not understand facts and you have no idea how to argue. You also lack common sense.
Let me give you a fact, in Sanger's own words: In a chapter from Woman and the New Race (1920) titled "Contraceptives or Abortion?," Sanger wrote, "While there are cases where even the law recognizes an abortion as justifiable if recommended by a physician, I assert that the hundreds of thousands of abortions performed in America each year are a disgrace to civilization."

Sanger did not promote free love. In fact, she supported sexual constraint, which is consistent with the beliefs of her generation.

However, because Sanger was horrified by the use of abortion by poor women to limit the size of their families, she promoted birth control. Her concern was for maternal health Interestingly, you join some very progressive people (do I hear your shower running?) in condemning Sanger's desire to purify humanity. However, Sanger also worked to improve the lives of minorities and was admired by many mid-20th C. civil rights leaders, including MLK.

While there are times, okie, when I just wish you would go away and pull your blankets over your head and sleep, there are other times when I think it is good for you to be here, no matter how you are (justifiably) berated. Your lack of intellection and your poor powers of reasoning just might be elevated.

Certainly, you are given information that you could seek out yourself. The down side is that you simply would not be able to interpret it..
Face the truth, pom, Sanger's legacy is a very bad one. I can understand why liberals like yourself are apologists for her, but she is ultimately responsible for promoting millions of infants being killed through her help in originating PlannedParenthood. Her legacy is also that of being a racist. Further, as can be found numerous places if you do the research, Hitler's Eugenics against the Jews was not too dissimilar to some of Sanger's beliefs about blacks. Her upbringing included socialist or communist leanings, and a resentment of Judeo Christian principles, including capitalism. In other words, she was a radical Leftist from the beginning. I do not think it is happenstance, pom, that Leftism always seems to lead back to the resentment of Jews and their capitalistic culture. Remember, that is the legacy of Hitler as well, scapegoating the Jews, and one of his visions to cleanse his country of the scourge was his program of Eugenics, that being the attempt to totally exterminate the Jews.
There are ample references for all of the facts about this that I have pointed out about it, pom. I am providing you just two as follows. Please read them .
http://www.blackgenocide.org/sanger.html
http://www.worldviewweekend.com/worldview-times/article.php?articleid=939

[/quote]
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Apr, 2011 05:36 pm
@okie,
I wrote:
Quote:
Sanger wanted parenthood to be assumed by responsible people.


okie replied:
Quote:
That hardly makes sense, pom. Would responsible people abort their own offspring and decline to nurture them?.


Can this man read? Can he reason?
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Apr, 2011 05:36 pm
@okie,
Quote:
Her legacy of promoting killing has evolved into the radical left now wanting the government to tax everyone to pay for others to kill their offspring, pom, so I think your statement is just flat wrong.


She was against abortion.
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Apr, 2011 05:40 pm
@okie,
In response to my statement about Ashkenazi Jews and African-Americans with family histories of Sickle Cell, okie wrote:
Quote:
I don't know, pom, but I would say they should get the best medical advice before they even marrry, and then make their decision.


On the surface, it looks like okie goes along with the outdated teaching of the Catholic Church: marriage is for the procreation of children.

It looks like he is suggesting that a couple not marry. It is also apparent how little he knows about genetics. Every pregnancy of the same couple will vary genetically.
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Apr, 2011 05:43 pm
@okie,
You are so incredibly stupid. Listen, you stereotyping schlock meister, you have no idea what liberals stand for. Your analytical and critical thinking skills are non-existent.

Not only did I not apologize for Sanger, I gave you a reasoned and intelligent argument that should have shut your pie hole for a week.

If you think that there are not right wingers seeking to eliminate all birth control, you are criminally naive.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Apr, 2011 05:46 pm
@plainoldme,
plainoldme wrote:
She was against abortion.
two simple questions,
Did Sanger help establish Planned Parenthood? And has Planned Parenthood promoted abortion as a method of eliminating unwanted children?
[/quote]
okie
 
  0  
Reply Sun 10 Apr, 2011 05:55 pm
@plainoldme,
plainoldme wrote:
On the surface, it looks like okie goes along with the outdated teaching of the Catholic Church: marriage is for the procreation of children.
First of all, I am not Catholic, but I do feel that our culture has gone way off track by permeating society with the idea that sex is a recreational activity with no responsibility that goes along with it. I believe the sexual act is a very fulfilling act when it is between a husband and wife that are committed to each other and the responsibilities of their marriage, which often includes children and then raising them responsibly. This should not include killing them due to them being an inconvenience, in my opinion.
Quote:
It looks like he is suggesting that a couple not marry. It is also apparent how little he knows about genetics. Every pregnancy of the same couple will vary genetically.
It is my opinion that it is wise for couples to examine the health aspects of their families and any potential genetic disorders possible or probable, and that they should discuss the things openly and honestly, and if appropriate to obtain medical advice. In very high risk genetic situations, it might be wise to rethink marriage, but that would be up to the individuals involve.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Apr, 2011 05:55 pm
@okie,
Are pregnancies from rape and incest "unwanted children?"

Also, you conservatives keep saying that it's wrong for transferring wealth from the rich to the poor. How does having "unwanted children" support your position?

You just want to control womens bodies to make sure they have their babies, then ignore them when the woman is not in a position to support a baby.

plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Apr, 2011 05:58 pm
@okie,
Quote:
First of all, I am not Catholic, but I do feel that our culture has gone way off track by permeating society with the idea that sex is a recreational activity with no responsibility that goes along with it.


Funny. When I was a young woman, it was always the right wing men who wanted sex without affection and without responsibility.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Apr, 2011 06:01 pm
@okie,
Quote:
In very high risk genetic situations, it might be wise to rethink marriage, but that would be up to the individuals involve.


Right! okie promotes misery. Was yours an arranged marriage? Did you marry solely to have children? If you know that you or your wife was infertile before marrying, would you have married? Would you have married someone else if your present wife had proved infertile? There is a range of answers between aborting defective fetuses -- and what is more just, an abortion or having a kid with Tay-Sachs? -- and separating. Your right wing authoritarian personality is outfront on this one.
okie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Apr, 2011 06:13 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Are pregnancies from rape and incest "unwanted children?"
ci, This subject is not an easy one to answer. I think I have expressed this before, that I might be a bit more open to a middle ground position as determined by states, not the federal government. If a pregnancy results from a crime, this creates another aspect to this entire issue. First of all, I do not think the numbers are percentage wise very high for pregnancies from verifiable rape and incest. If states wished to allow it, I think it should be limited to cases where a rape clearly occurred and proven, not simply claimed by a woman wishing to have an abortion. The same types of controls should be applied in cases of incest. I would also want to see it limited to the first trimester of the preganancy I think.

My bottom line thought on this whole subject is that abortion is a spiritual problem more than it is a legal one. It stems from a society that is shirking their responsibilities in all kinds of ways, and that now has permeated the marriage commitments and then being responsible for the sexual unions among people, as well as the consequences and responsibilities of those unions. This is not a problem that has easy answers, and so as I've already said, I think I would go with States rights on the issue, without the federal government controlling it. One thing I am fairly sure of, the Roe v Wade decision was a very bad one, as it was based upon very illogicl reasoning, the made up term "Right to Privacy." They manufactured that one out of virtually nothing. It reminded me of the lawyer that said after he was asked "how much is 2+2?, "what do you want to be?" Even the original filer of the case has admitted she is sorry and has lived with the guilt of it too long, so she is an advocate of overturning it.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Sun 10 Apr, 2011 06:13 pm
@plainoldme,
I'm not sure why conservatives are so hell bent on controlling women's body when they really don't care about the baby. They want the woman to have the baby by establishing laws to make abortion illegal, then ignore that babies life soon afterwards. They sure don't want to support it with their tax dollars.
plainoldme
 
  0  
Reply Sun 10 Apr, 2011 06:15 pm
@cicerone imposter,
And whether or not the mother is a college student or a crack whore, they don't want to educate her baby.

They're just looking for what used to be called cannon fodder and is now called boots on the ground.
0 Replies
 
 

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