55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sat 1 Jan, 2011 06:46 pm
@georgeob1,
Very true; we need to expand our population of working age folks who are needed when the baby-boomers begin their retirement beginning this year. The growth in retirement will be much greater than our "natural" population growth, and that must be supplemented with immigration.

The problem with zero population growth is the growth of seniors who leave the work force, but will require other important services that are provided by government such as social security and MediCare. That increase in cost must be supported by the work force that pay taxes for their own future and current senior citizens.

Government planning for this is non-existent, and that's one of the reasons Germany and Japan are in financial difficulties.
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Sat 1 Jan, 2011 06:54 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I believe it would be more accurate to say that Germany and Japan are probably in irreversable population decline - a phenomenon that naturally accelerates as it progresses.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Jan, 2011 07:01 pm
@georgeob1,
I've been hearing/reading about the population declines in Germany and Japan for over a decade. The interesting part of all this scenario is that it was only recently that Japan gave up second place in economic power to China, but Germany seems to hold its own in Europe. They're the ones supplying most of the bailout of bankrupt Euro countries, even as their population shrinks.

An untenable situation for all - including us.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Jan, 2011 10:48 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I agree the German economic performance is remarkable. However to sustain their very efficient export economy they will need both more workers and a continuation of the wage restraints that have helped them grow and maintain high employment. Doing this in a period of worsening labor scarcity is likely to be very difficult. The remedy may be more imported workers from within the EU. However as the relative difference between the economy of (say) Poland and that of Germany shrinks that will become more problematical. The only remedy may be more Turks or Syrians, however that pressents its own problems.

Japan has an unusual combination of high personal savings rates among its citizens and a very high level of government debt. That makes it very hard (for me at least) to figure out just how secure or precarious their situation really is. However the continuing demographic decline doesn't give them much time to fix things - if it is indeed possible.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Jan, 2011 01:25 am
@georgeob1,
Maybe they could forego one of those weeks of vacation every year. It adds up.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Jan, 2011 09:54 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
What a crock of sophistry. (And calling your argument sophistry is being charitable)

The only sophistry I am seeing is your Finn.
Okie has stated he is not for equal outcomes. What does that make him for?
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Sun 2 Jan, 2011 12:12 pm
@parados,
You are putting words in his mouth and evading meaningful logical distinctions as you do so. These are tactics that would appeal only to a biased, pedantic, nitpicker such as yourself.

Okie said he was for equal opportunity. That is a long-term fundamental principle of our government and society. He objected to government intervention that would systematically equalize outcomes no matter what the differences between the work, study and effort put into the endeavor by the individuals involved. There is nothing either novel or remarkable about that perspective.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sun 2 Jan, 2011 01:02 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob, You are making the same mistake most conservatives make; that liberal presidents like Obama are working to change our country into communism for equality. okie has called Obama a Marxist. Doesn't that prove what he says or means?

We are a capitalistic country, and you nor okie can't show us where any liberal president has even attempted to change our government into communism. I'm sure you understand the difference between communism and capitalism.

Most developed countries in this world are not communistic; they are capitalistic with social benefits that benefit the majority of its citizens no matter what their work skill, income or wealth. Denmark happens to have one of the highest tax rates, but they are one of the happiest people in this world.

A democracy tries to achieve the highest standard of living for its citizens. That includes free education, a well maintained infrastructure, security, freedom, and the pursuit of happiness.

Unfortunately, the US falls at the bottom rung on achievement on these standards for developed countries.

When do you and okie think liberal presidents will convert our economy into communism?



georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Sun 2 Jan, 2011 02:18 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I'm not making any mistake at all. You are projecting your own interpretations on very large numbers of people whose views are different from both your own and your distorted interpretation of theirs.

I have not ever made the slippery slope argument that Obama is pushing us towards inevitable Communism (although he is, by his own rhetoric seeking to move us a small degree in that direction). I recognize there are a number of stable democracies, of which Denmark is one, which have far more extensive social welfare systems than we have here. However, I note that all of them are seeing increasing difficulty in financing the systems they have, and that none of them does very well in assimilating immigrants from almost anywhere. For these and other reasons, I don't want the (mostly ill-conceived) "reforms" that Obama is trying to push on us, and I don't think they will ever achieve their intended objectives - even if we were able to afford them.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Jan, 2011 02:33 pm
@georgeob1,
They are all having difficulties because of the Great Recession - caused by your esteemed republican president GW Bush. His tax cuts that promised to create jobs never happened, and the unemployed today numbers over 25 million in our country alone.

Just because the world economy is suffering doesn't mean their goal to increase the standard of living for their citizens is the wrong choice.

No human endeavor is perfect, but the attempts to increase the well being of all citizens is better than increasing the numbers of haves over the have-nots.

Yes, that's a personal opinion.
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Sun 2 Jan, 2011 02:49 pm
@cicerone imposter,
G.W. Bush diidn't cause the world recession. There were lots of local factors at work in every country that suffered it - and it was local factors that protected those that didn't suffer it.

European nations face economic and demographic factors that clearly make their current social welfare systems financially unsustainable - with or without the current recession. I think you have elsewhere already acknowledged that fact.

Wanting good things doesn't excuse or make right stupid or unsustainable actions that make the situation worse for everyone.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Jan, 2011 03:15 pm
@georgeob1,
It was under his watch; he deregulated the financial industries that allowed it to go where it did. His tax cuts caused our deficit to grow while our unemployment increased. Those factors reduced tax revenue while trying to fund two wars; a stupid decision. They were unnecessary wars; Iraq was never a threat to US security.

Yes, there were many local factors, but that's why any government who understands economics knows they must establish controls against fraud and stock manipulation of derivatives that was essentially grossly over-valued while wall street went to sleep.

Greenspan's low interest rates also inflated equity prices, but especially real estate; a balloon that was being encouraged by the low interest and GW Bush for home ownership.

FYI, Germany has had social benefits for their citizens long before our country contemplated any. They also happen to be the third strongest economy in the world. We all understand their demographic problems that are facing them, but that doesn't mean that their having taken care of the citizens was the wrong decision.

Economics works in cycles, but this Great Recession has impacted all countries around the world. It's a world economy today; something not contemplated when Germany and other developed and not so developed countries implemented their social benefits programs.

Stupid and unsustainable actions by GW Bush is legendary now. The whole world suffered - including the many tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis killed by our "shock and awe" campaign.

Now, that's stupid!


georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Jan, 2011 03:17 pm
@cicerone imposter,
You are merely throwing dust in the air and evading the point.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sun 2 Jan, 2011 03:20 pm
@georgeob1,
I am? That would have to be confirmed by our other a2k members. It seems to me that your posts have been challenged more often than mine.

If you call that "throwing dust in the air," you'll have to explain what you mean. Throwing dust doesn't mean much.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Sun 2 Jan, 2011 03:39 pm
@georgeob1,
Confirmed.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Jan, 2011 05:44 pm
Today's news:
Quote:
Advertise on NYTimes.com
G.O.P. Vows to Cut Spending and Roll Back Health Care Bill


This, I would love to see.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  0  
Reply Sun 2 Jan, 2011 07:31 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

I'm not making any mistake at all. You are projecting your own interpretations on very large numbers of people whose views are different from both your own and your distorted interpretation of theirs.
First of all, thank you for your reinforcement and correct interpretations of the opinions I've posted here. I appreciate your rebuttal of ci's mistaken interpretations. I think ci's problem stems from the fact that he voted for Obama, and so it really bothers him greatly when I remind him of some very important facts, that Obama not only has had friends and admired mentors in his life that have Marxist views, and that Obama himself has made comments such as "spreading the wealth around," and that he has in fact appointed several people with Marxist beliefs and connections. I have repeatedly expressed the opinion, I believe rightly so, that I am suspicious of Obama and that I do not believe he really believes wholeheartedly in free market capitalism. I do not believe I have ever stated that I think Obama will be able to convert the country into a communist country, so ci's suggestion that I think he will, is of course nonsense. I have stated that I believe Obama has Marxist sympathies, and I have provided good evidence for why that is a wholly reasonable opinion.
Quote:
I have not ever made the slippery slope argument that Obama is pushing us towards inevitable Communism (although he is, by his own rhetoric seeking to move us a small degree in that direction). I recognize there are a number of stable democracies, of which Denmark is one, which have far more extensive social welfare systems than we have here. However, I note that all of them are seeing increasing difficulty in financing the systems they have, and that none of them does very well in assimilating immigrants from almost anywhere. For these and other reasons, I don't want the (mostly ill-conceived) "reforms" that Obama is trying to push on us, and I don't think they will ever achieve their intended objectives - even if we were able to afford them.
You are very correct in what you have written, george. I think the point really boils down to the fact that ci simply does not accept the idea yet that perhaps he grossly misjudged Obama, and he is not yet ready to admit his mistake, so he continues to try to skew the arguments made by conservatives here, such as I am. Much of the problem we are dealing with here is the fact that unlike a Ronald Reagan that was clear and open about his beliefs and convictions, we do not have anything close to that type of moral and political clarity with Obama, in my opinion at least. I do not find him to be clear and open at all, and so we are left with interpreting who and what he really believes, by his friends and mentors, his appointments, his actions and comments. It becomes a "connect the dots" project for all of us voters out here. Fortunately for us, Obama's ability to actually institute all of his agenda has become further curtailed by this past election.
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Jan, 2011 07:49 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:

(Obama) has in fact appointed several people with Marxist beliefs and connections.

Can you provide some names?
okie
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 2 Jan, 2011 08:03 pm
@realjohnboy,
I am surprised this is apparently news, rjb. This has been common knowledge to conservatives ever since Obama became president. All you have to do is go to your search engine and type in "obama marxist appointments" and you should get enough links to read for an hour or so.

This subject is large and could focus on many areas of Obama's life and experience, but one interesting fact that I learned a few weeks ago was the fact that a congresswoman from Illinois, Alice Palmer, she recommended Obama to run for her seat to succeed her, and apparently she had communist ties to the Soviet Union. It would of course be logical for her to recommend somebody for her seat that had similar philisophical views, don't you think, rjb? Seems like common sense to me.

I think that if anyone is unaware of all of Obama's ties and experiences with Marxist folks, that is not because the information is not available. It should have been more common knowledge than it is, if the mainstream media had been more responsible, but sadly they are not. It is up to us to be informed on this stuff. Glenn Beck did some really good investigative work on this many moons ago, and he is just one of many conservative or alternative media sources.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Jan, 2011 08:16 pm
rjb, This is probably the list the okie uses to charge Obama with appointing marxist Americans. It's long on rhetoric, and short on proof of their Marxist connections.

Quote:
A LIST OF PRESIDENT OBAMA'S MARXIST CZARS
10-02-2009 8:20 am - John Wallace
Below is a list of President Obama's Marxist and Socialist Czars. Now that we know who they are, why hasn't the national drive-by media looked into their backgrounds and informed the American people of their individual histories.

WE KNOW WHY! DON'T WE!

These newly created, very powerful positions are right out of the communist playbook. They do not require Congressional approval & there was very little or no press coverage of their appointments. Why? Because if the American people knew who these these new zars really are, they would be very upset with our president for appointing such radicals to these powerful positions.

Here's the list:

1. Afghanistan Czar: Richard Holbrooke - American diplomat and former investment banker. Pro Abortion, pro legal drug use and Anti Second Amendment.

2. AIDS Czar: Jeffrey Crowley Homosexual. A Gay Rights activist. Believes in Gay Marriage and Special Status, including free health care for gays.

3. Auto recovery Czar: Ed Montgomery- Black radical anti business activist. Affirmative Action and Job Preference for blacks. Univ of Maryland Business School Dean teaches US business has caused world poverty. ACORN board member. Communist DuBois Club member.

4. Border Czar: Alan Bersin- former failed superintendent of San Diego. Ultra Liberal friend of Hilary Clinton. Served as Border Czar under Janet Reno – to keep borders open to illegals

5. California Water Czar: David J. Hayes Sr. Fellow of radical environmentalist group, “Progress Policy”. No training or experience in water management.

6. Car Czar: Ron Bloom- Auto Union worker. Anti business & anti nuclear. Has worked hard to force US auto makers out of business. Sits on the Board of Chrysler which is now Auto Union owned. How did this happen?

7. Central Region Czar: Dennis Ross- Believes US policy has caused Mid East wars. Obama apologist to the world.. Anti gun and pro abortion.

8. Domestic Violence Czar: Lynn Rosenthal- Director of the National Network to End Domestic Violence. Vicious anti male feminist. Supported male castration.

9. Drug Czar: Gil Kerlikowske- devoted lobbyist for every restrictive gun law proposal, Former Chief of Police in Liberal Seattle. Believes no American should own a firearm. Supports legalization of drugs.

10. Economic Czar: Paul Volcker - Head of Fed Reserve under Jimmy Carter when US economy nearly failed. Obama appointed head of the Economic Recovery Advisory Board which engineered the Obama economic disaster to US economy. Member of anti business “Progressive Policy” organization.

11. Energy and Environment Czar: Carol Brower- Political Radical -Former head of EPA -- known for anti-business activism. Strong anti-gun ownership.

12. Faith-Based Czar: Joshua DuBois Political Black activist-Degree in Black Nationalism. Anti gun ownership lobyist.

13. Great Lakes Czar: Cameron Davis- Chicago radical anti business environmentalist. Blames George Bush for “Poisoning the water that minorities have to drink.” No experience or training in water management. Former ACORN Board member

14. Green Jobs Czar: Van Jones- (since resigned). Black activist Member of American communist Party and San Francisco Communist Party who said Geo Bush caused the 911 attack and wanted Bush investigated by the World Court for war crimes. Black activist with strong anti-white views.

15. Guantanamo Closure Czar: Daniel Fried –Rights activist for Foreign Terrorists. Believes America has caused the war on terrorism.

16. Health Czar: Nancy-Ann DeParle.. Former head of Medicare / Medicaid. Strong Health Care Rationing proponent. She is married to a reporter for The New York Times.

17. Information Czar: Vivek Kundra- born in New Delhi, India. Controls all public information, including labels and news releases. Monitors all private Internet emails.

18. International Climate Czar: Todd Stern- Anti business former White House chief of Staff- Strong supportrer of the Kyoto Accord. Pushing hard for Cap and Trade. Blames US business for Global warming.

19. Intelligence Czar: Dennis Blair- Ret Navy. Stopped US guided missile program as “provocative”. Chair of ultra liberal “Council on Foreign Relations” which blames American organizations for regional wars.

20. Mideast Peace Czar: George Mitchell Fmr. Sen from Maine- Left wing radical. Has said Israel should be split up into “2 or 3 “ smaller more manageable plots”. Anti-nuclear, anti-gun & pro homosexual.

21. Pay Czar: Kenneth Feinberg- Chief of Staff to TED KENNEDY. Lawyer who got rich off the 911 victims payoffs.

22. Regulatory Czar: Cass Sunstein- Liberal activist judge-believes free speech needs to be limited for the “common good”. Rules against personal freedoms many times –like private gun ownership.

23. Science Czar: John Holdren- Fierce ideological environmentalist, Sierra Club, Anti business activist. Claims US business has caused world poverty. No Science training.

24. Stimulus Accountability Czar: Earl Devaney- spent career trying to take guns away from American citizens. Believes in Open Borders to Mexico. Author of statement blaming US gun stores for drug war in Mexico.

25. Sudan Czar: J. Scott Gration- Native of Democratic Republic of Congo. Believes US does little to help Third World countries. Council of foreign relations, asking for higher US taxes to support United Nations.

26. TARP Czar: Herb Allison- Fannie May CEO responsible for the US recession by using real estate mortgages to back up the US stock market. Caused millions of people to lose their life savings.

27. Terrorism Czar: John Brennan- Anti CIA activist. No training in diplomatic or gov. affairs. Believes Open Borders to Mexico and a dialog with terrorists and has suggested Obama disband US military.

27. Technology Czar: Aneesh Chopra- No Technology training. Worked for the Advisory Board Company, a health care think tank for hospitals. Anti doctor activist. Supports Obama Health care Rationing and salaried doctors working exclusively for the Gov. health care plan.

28. Urban Affairs Czar: Adolfo Carrion Jr.- Puerto Rican. Anti American activist and leftist group member in Latin America. Millionaire “slum lord” of the Bronx, NY. Owns many lavish homes and condos which he got from “sweetheart” deals with labor unions. Wants higher taxes to pay for minority housing and health care.

29. Weapons Czar: Ashton Carter- Leftist. Wants all private weapons in US destroyed. Supports U N ban on firearms ownership in America. No Other “policy”

30. Weapons of Mass Destruction Policy Czar: Gary Samore- Former US Communist. Wants US to destroy all WMD unilaterally as a show of good faith. Has no other “policy”.

The American people must take the congress back in 2010 to prevent this marxist president from destroying out country. 2012 cannot come fast enough. We must get this Marxist president

0 Replies
 
 

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