AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

I'm not one of these assholes that's going to quote and respond to every sentence or point of conjecture that you type.

So let's be clear on that right now.

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@Brand WTF,

Brand WTF wrote:

I knew you wouldn't accept anything....or use any real world logic.

Have you been out in the business world yet...any real world experience, or are you just in books?

Have you ever worked in a business and been exposed to bankers and other type gov't regulators and regulations?

Yes.

Quote:

Because I can speak from first hand experience.

Great.

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You sound like a bookworm that doesn't really know anything about anything.

You sound like an anti-intellectual. I find it hard to believe that you would know more about a subject but be so unable to discuss it in depth. Do you typically find that to be the case?

Quote:

You posted too quick to have read anything I linked.

I posted at 9:15, you posted at 9:22 which includes all your quoting and creating a true straw man rebuttal.

I read both your links. It doesn't take long to read what amounts to about 2 pages of information each. I even had time to look up John Carney and some of his other articles.

Quote:

Are you going to get serious or just bullshit?

I don't give two shits about your posturing. I've had this discussion over and over with right wingers on A2K. They inevitably do the same thing that you are doing: get huffy when they are called out on the fact that they cannot describe a cohesive narrative of what actually happened. They instead rely on generalities and political statements. It's boring, and if you can't be bothered to introduce in-depth, logical arguments, in your own words, than I really can't be bothered to continue.

If you want to have a REAL discussion of what happened, with in-depth discussion about specific aspects of the crisis and how the different elements interplay with one another, I'm down for that.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Brand WTF,

So, let me see if I have this right.

The CRA forced banks to loan to minorities out of fear of regulation and the government looking at their paper work but they ignored the rules of how to write loans because the knew the government would never look at their paper work.

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Quote:

You sound like an anti-intellectual. I find it hard to believe that you would know more about a subject but be so unable to discuss it in depth. Do you typically find that to be the case?

I have been plenty in depth on the subject and obviously introduced some information you have not seen, not that you cared.

I just do not blather on and on like some people.

Quote:

I don't give two shits about your posturing. I've had this discussion over and over with right wingers on A2K. They inevitably do the same thing that you are doing: get huffy when they are called out on the fact that they cannot describe a cohesive narrative of what actually happened. They instead rely on generalities and political statements. It's boring, and if you can't be bothered to introduce in-depth, logical arguments, in your own words, than I really can't be bothered to continue.

You started backing down in post #http://able2know.org/topic/113196-1165#post-4447546

Which is your normal modus operandi when you're out of firepower... as I observe from reading these forums nearly everyday. You definitely know how to argue, but saying something and knowing what you're talking about are entirely different things.

That's alright, we don't have to agree.

That's life. Carry on.

1 Reply

@parados,

First of all the CRA never required the banks to loan to 'minorities'.

Read again:

"The Community Reinvestment Act is intended to encourage depository institutions to help meet the credit needs of the communities in which they operate, including low- and moderate-income neighborhoods"

Got it?

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So, let me see if I have this right.

No. Study some more.

1 Reply

@Brand WTF,

What do you think redlining was all about if not a way to avoid loaning to minorities?

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@Brand WTF,

I backed down from nothing. You linked to a couple of articles which didn't have much real info to add. One of them was an unattributed and unsourced assertion which blamed F/F but provided no evidence. The other was tangentially relevant at best.

Neither was especially impressive, and you didn't point out any specifics that you wanted to discuss with either article, so I had nothing to comment on them. Just more of the same bullshit.

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Which is your normal modus operandi when you're out of firepower... as I observe from reading these forums nearly everyday. You definitely know how to argue, but saying something and knowing what you're talking about are entirely different things.

That's alright, we don't have to agree.

What a joke. You're now trying to bluster your way out of a conversation which you can't hang with.

I challenge you to instead continue - tell us, in your own words, an account of how the CRA and F/F caused the crisis. I predict you will be unable to do so and are now merely trying to cover up for that fact.

The fact is that you are wrong with your earlier assertions. 100% wrong. The initial guy you linked to is a political hack who has no clue about economics or anything at all from what I can tell.

You're about the eight right-winger who has retreated from the conversation on this topic as soon as possible. One of these days I'll come across one of you who has what it takes to actually do research on a subject before spouting off about it.

I leave it to the reader of this thread to conclude which of us is avoiding a fact-based discussion on this issue.

Cycloptichorn

2 Replies

@parados,

parados wrote:

What do you think redlining was all about if not a way to avoid loaning to minorities?

He has no ******* clue what he's talking about. The history of the CRA, the financial crisis. Any of it.

Cycloptichorn

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@Cycloptichorn,

lol. Riiiiiight.

Hey, it's not my job to post here...it's just something to do and I for damn sure don't work for you...so I don't have to meet your lame specifications.

Maybe you should at least run a lemonade stand to get some real experience, learn something.

It's not abut left or right, it's about what happened. Duh.

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@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

I backed down from nothing.

You back down from everything and you're scared to death of fact-based discussions.

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@Brand WTF,

Quote:

It's not abut left or right, it's about what happened. Du

Maybe you should think about that before you start laying blame without any facts.

For someone that wants to crow about all the real life experience you have, you don't seem to have much experience about how things work in real life.

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@Brand WTF,

You're too dumb to even run a lemonade stand. Maybe, dog **** picker might be in your range of skills; you certainly don't have any on much else.

2 Replies

@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

dog **** picker might be in your range of skills

Well, apparently you're the expert.

1 Reply

@Brand WTF,

Yes; and I identified you as one.

1 Reply

@parados,

Discriminatory practices were there for lots of reasons.

Sure minorities were redlined in anything from water fountains, bus seats to insurance and banking at one time.

It got political, but banks being businesses must have had other reasons too...like making what they thought were sound transactions. But every community needs an influx of finance and investment....someway, somehow someone has to do it.

I worked for a company 20 years ago that rented products...but there was one area that was definitely redlined, but only after too much money was lost and too many employees were put in dangerous situations. The area happened to be a minority occupied one but that had nothing to do with the redlining...it had become doing business at too much risk.

Even the company I work for today has redlined a few locations where they will not deliver too for the same reason. Different than banking, granted...but just for example.

So since before 1930 when redlining began there could have been lots of reasons besides a few neighborhoods in Chicago that felt wronged.

Being a business person I cannot accept the narrow view that redlining in every case was racially prejudice, or minority prejudice as you framed it.

I think the creation of CRA was a good thing...though I may not agree with the unintended consequences.

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@cicerone imposter,

lol Congratulations. Now, wash your stinky hands.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

too dumb to even run a lemonade stand.

When it comes to Cyclotroll's abilities, you got it right.

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@Brand WTF,

Quote:

It got political, but banks being businesses must have had other reasons too...like making what they thought were sound transactions. But every community needs an influx of finance and investment....someway, somehow someone has to do it.

oh.. so now you want to ignore the real world and deal only in your theory? That seems the exact opposite of what you wanted to do earlier when it was an easy attack for you. Redlining targeted minority areas because those are low income areas. CRA was designed to help combat that. One needs to only read the debate when it passed to understand that.

Quote:

Being a business person I cannot accept the narrow view that redlining in every case was racially prejudice, or minority prejudice as you framed it.

Since I never said that, I don't know why you are arguing against it. Unless you can't discuss the real issues so need to build a strawman you can kick the stuffing out of.

1 Reply

@parados,

But let's rephrase my argument so you can't introduce red herrings to avoid answering it.

This is your argument in a nutshell.

The CRA forced banks to loan to low income areas out of fear of regulation and the government looking at their paper work but they ignored the rules of how to write loans because the knew the government would never look at their paper work.

1 Reply

@Brand WTF,

Brand WTF wrote:

Being a business person I cannot accept the narrow view that redlining in every case was racially prejudice, or minority prejudice as you framed it.

Oh, don't take our word for it - educate yourself:

http://powerreporting.com/color/

Quote:

The first series, published May 1-4, 1998, disclosed that Atlanta's banks and savings and loan institutions, although they had made loans for years in even the poorest white neighborhoods of Atlanta, did not lend in middle-class or more affluent black neighborhoods. The focus moved to lenders across the nation with the January 1989 article, "Blacks turned down for home loans from S&Ls twice as often as whites."

There is a wealth of data and research showing that this is exactly what happened: lower-income whites were preferred over higher-income blacks consistently, until banks were FORCED to stop the practice.

Not only that, but the practice of redlining itself was BEGUN by our government, with specific instructions to not lend to minorities, in the 30's. From day one it was a racially-based idea.

It's a long series, but worth a read.

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I think the creation of CRA was a good thing...though I may not agree with the unintended consequences.

There's no evidence that the CRA had anything to do with our current financial crash. The CRA didn't mandate risky loans or lower lending practices, and loans under the CRA program were LESS likely to default than any others over the last decade.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Reinvestment_Act#Relation_to_2008_financial_crisis

It is nothing more than a vehicle for right-wingers to place the blame on something other than greed. This is why I reacted so strongly to the guy you linked; his attempts to blame the crisis on the CRA are foolish, misplaced and nonsensical.

If you want the simplest proof possible, witness the fact that we are also currently undergoing a giant crisis in the COMMERCIAL real estate market; which has nothing to do with the CRA, Fannie or Freddie at all. But everything to do with Wall Street, mortgage brokers and greed.

Cycloptichorn

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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

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