AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

@plainoldme,

plainoldme wrote:

My mother was a huge believer in vacations having an educational content. We visited Washington, D.C. and Virginia, driving all the way, when I was 15. I had always intended to return, but, that was nearly half a century ago! My ex-husband never understood tourism. His mother always blamed him for her not having been able to visit Williamsburg during their years of driving from Florida to Massachusetts during the 1950s. I asked her why she just didn't put her foot down and say, "I'm the mother. I want to see Williamsburg. You can wait in the car (as kids always did back then)." She was surprised but she stopped grousing about not seeing Williamsburg.

pom, as I told rjb about our family vacation, my wife, our two children, and I visited the East Coast including D.C, including many Civil War parks. We spent several days in D.C. to take in the Smithsonians, the Whitehouse, the Capitol, Library of Congress, The Wall, etc. We walked the Mall with all the memorials, but each evening caught the subway out to a suburb for motel accommodations. I have already mentioned that we also visited Jamestown. We visited Williamsburg, and took the time to try to absorb and comprehend what happened there. During the same trip, we also drove through Manhatten and took the tour to visit Ellis Island and the Statue of Liberty.

On at least one other vacation, we went to Disneyland, Knotts Berry Farm, and other attractions in that area of California, in part because we have relatives out there in that area, but our vacation to the East Coast stands out to us now as the most enjoyable, educational, and memorable. Since our children are now grown, we have done our once in a lifetime trip to the U.K. and Denmark, which will forever be my favorite, because my father immigrated from Denmark and I have relatives that my family corresponds with. My wife also has relatives in the U.K., so that trip will stand out as perhaps the best, and also the most expensive because of the exchange rate. I remember a lunch at a pizza place down on the ocean front in Brighton, England, that cost me close to $200 in American dollars, although there were about 8 or 10 of us there.

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@okie,

Quote:

As a conservative, I think it is instructive to point out to others that not all conservatives think alike,

Translation: I'm a blowhard with a need to state the obvious because I have no ideas and it makes me feel good to talk down to others.

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@okie,

okie wrote:

Quote:

As a conservative, I think it is instructive to point out to others that not all conservatives think alike, and that it is also appropriate to disagree with fellow conservatives on this forum when it is appropriate.

Why is it, then, that you don't provide the same leeway for liberals? Do you honestly believe all liberals think in lock-step as you claim them to be?

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

Why is it, then, that you don't provide the same leeway for liberals? Do you honestly believe all liberals think in lock-step as you claim them to be?

A rousing cheer and a thumbs up. He fails to accept that George Soros and Saul Alinsky never enter the conversation. He also never responds when asked about leo strauss.

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@plainoldme,

plainoldme wrote:

I'm a blowhard with a need to state the obvious because I have no ideas and it makes me feel good to talk down to others.

Too bad, but you can change for the better, plainoldme.

1 Reply

@ican711nm,

Looting America: Treasury Secretary Paulson Threatened Senators with Martial Law

http://www.chrismartenson.com/blog/looting-america-treasury-secretary-paulson-threatened-senators-martial-law/9576

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POM and Okie:
Taking a break from the usual discourse here, I did my undergrad study at William & Mary in Williamsburg. Most of my classes, in econ or govt, were in nondescript classroom buildings. But for two semesters I took English classes in the Christopher Wren building. It is the signature building at W&M, located right at the western end of the Duke of Gloucester Street.
The instructors had us write a lot. A lot of essays. At the end of each class, a couple of students would be asked to read their's and would be critiqued by the others.
The "problem" was that the Wren building was open to the public. Tourists would wander in, take pictures, and listen to the essays we read to our friends/classmates. Some students had problems with that.
I, though, was (and remained for a couple of decades) an actor. A ham actor. In retrospect, some of my writing then was probably geared towards the audience of tourists who would drift in.

Back now to our regularly scheduled sniping.

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@realjohnboy,

rjb, When I first met you in Chicago, I had no idea you were an actor. LOL

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@cicerone imposter,

I seem to recall, ci, from a long ago thread (years ago) that you were involved with theater as a back stage guy when you were in the Air Force in NM or someplace.
I could never sing or dance, but I could, as the saying goes, chew up the scenery in dramas - or as a character actor in musicals. One of my employees, deeply involved in local productions, invites me to get back into it. But my bedtime is 11 pm on a good day. More like 9 or 10 if my back hurts.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

okie wrote:
Quote:
As a conservative, I think it is instructive to point out to others that not all conservatives think alike, and that it is also appropriate to disagree with fellow conservatives on this forum when it is appropriate.

Why is it, then, that you don't provide the same leeway for liberals? Do you honestly believe all liberals think in lock-step as you claim them to be?

That is an interesting subject, ci. In fact, I think that is one of the characteristics of a liberal mindset, that you folks seem to think more like groupees, rather than as individuals. You might not think in lockstep, but you certainly seem to defend each other in lockstep. It seems to me that you seldom condemn a fellow lib here if that lib goes over the line. Example, pom I think regularly goes over the line, one example being the opinion that the Arizona governor might as well commit suicide. I made a request that everyone on this forum, including her fellow liberals, should condemn such talk as clearly over the line. However, to this day, I am not aware of one single poster to do the decent thing and condemn her for it. pom regularely makes weird accusations here, another being that I probably abuse my wife and so on, which is totally and absolutely ridiculous, and frankly insulting. It is not typical of mature adults trying to carry on a decent conversation here.

The groupee thing goes back many years, actually during the Clinton era, only one lousy Democrat, that being Lieberman, even hinted at not being part of the circle the wagons mentality to protect Clinton and all of his corruption during his tenure. That is kind of where I started really noticing that characteristic among liberals, which persists to this day. Party trumps principle in their view, ci, and you have not diverged far enough from that pattern to make me think you are much different. Sorry, but I post my honest opinions here.

I have a theory that if I could meet you in person, you might be a nice guy, but I also need to recognize the fact that you have made it your mission to ridicule me and call me names for quite a long time now, so I would not know exactly what to expect upon meeting you.

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@okie,

okie, I've mentioned more than a dozen times that I'm not a "liberal." Your mindset is set on dumb.

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@cicerone imposter,

You certainly are not conservative, ci. I know, you claim to be independent, but most of the time you defend liberal policies and fellow liberal posters, so it is my opinion that you are predominantly liberal. You are not as whacko or radical as pom, but you are pretty much left of the centerline, in my opinion. Go ahead and claim to be an independent, but it doesn't prevent me from having my own opinion as well.

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@okie,

Quote:

You certainly are not conservative, ci.

Of course okie..
If he isn't conservative then he must be liberal and if Obama doesn't love the country then he must hate it.

You are just full of it okie.

Quote:

Go ahead and claim to be an independent, but it doesn't prevent me from having my own opinion as well.

And you can go ahead and claim you didn't mean hate but the rest of us are not prevented from having an opinion okie.

But let's face it okie. You clearly don't hold yourself to the standards you demand for everyone else. I would say that means you aren't honest and it certainly raises questions about your decency.

1 Reply

@okie,

No, okie, I'm not a conservative. I'll repeat again, I'm an Independent, and vote for the candidate I believe will be best for our country. It doesn't matter to me which political party they claim to be a member of.

Burn this into your brain, because I tire of your short memory and lies.

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@realjohnboy,

I read successful essays written by my students without acknowledging the writer, in case the author would be embarrassed. I am usually able to do so half-way through the semester. The effect is to immediately elevate all student writing.

William and Mary sounds very much like a European university.

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@okie,

Quote:

I think that is one of the characteristics of a liberal mindset, that you folks seem to think more like groupees, rather than as individuals.

Oh, goodness! This is from the man wrote that he hated hippies (who did not come into being until after he graduated, if the time line he presents for his life is accurate) while in college.

For years, popular culture has decried the sameness of conservatism, beginning with the early 1950's novel (if not earlier!), The Man in the Grey Flannel Suit.

Quote:

Example, pom I think regularly goes over the line, one example being the opinion that the Arizona governor might as well commit suicide.

Oh, poor little okie and his reading comprehension problem! That is not what I said. In answer to what has she done to offend me, I said that she has not committed suicide. That is not suggesting that she commit suicide, but, you would not understand that.

Quote:

pom regularely makes weird accusations here, another being that I probably abuse my wife and so on, which is totally and absolutely ridiculous, and frankly insulting. It is not typical of mature adults trying to carry on a decent conversation here.

Of course, you overlook that you went on for days all but asking me about my sex life . . . which other right-wingers had done on abuzz . . . and suggested that I criticized my husband relentlessly. It was difficult to answer your probing and suggestive questions, suitable only to a trial lawyer, without revealing intimate details.

The personality that you present here -- which has been consistent since abuzz -- is one of a martinet, a person who brooks no criticism, no variation from his self-established norm. With such an absolutist and narrow-minded presentation of yourself, what other conclusion might one reach about you? None.

The rest of your response is too badly composed to read, let alone comment on.

1 Reply

@okie,

Quote:

You certainly are not conservative, ci. I know, you claim to be independent

Independent has several meanings. Generally, at this time in the US, independent means a person who refuses to register as a party member.

Glad that you think I am whacko! I was insulted back in February or MArch when you suggested I might have some conservative in me as conservative to me means a hypocrite, a person without ethics, a head-over-heels conformist.

1 Reply

@parados,

parados wrote:

Quote:
You certainly are not conservative, ci.

Of course okie..
If he isn't conservative then he must be liberal and if Obama doesn't love the country then he must hate it.

You are just full of it okie.

Bingo, gotcha parados. Your reasoning to me in regard to Obama loving or hating America was that since I said Obama did not love this country as he should, you translated that into an allegation that I said he hated the country. If that were true, you would be the one claiming imposter cannot be independent, which might consist of being conservative on some issues and liberal on others or just apathetic or does not take a position on some.

It is my opinion that ci takes a liberal position on many issues. While there may be some areas of agreement with conservative positions, I do not think ci qualifies as a solid conservative. He claims to be an independent, and as pom has pointed out, independent may have several meanings, which I agree with, but it probably means that the person is not always solidly in the conservative or liberal camp. I think ci is more liberal than he is conservative, but that is only my opinion, I am not sure because I am not aware of all of his positions on each and every issue.

Similarly, I do not think Obama outright "hates America." I think there may be things he hates about it, certain aspects, and as I have said - I think he has some hangups, that he thinks America has been unfair in some ways, so that he does not really respect America as I think he should. I would also imagine there are things he loves about America, such as the chance it has given him to become a political rockstar, but I am not sure if that is more of a love for himself or his country. All summarized, I think the man is a fairly confused man, and he is wrapped up in his own agenda to somehow bring about some kind of utopian vision that he has in his head for the country. In short, I believe he thinks he is very special, not the country.

Bottom line, you have accused me of saying that Obama hates America. To this day, you have failed to provide a quote, and you continue to attempt to twist what I have said about this into something that I don't think I have said. If you find a quote with that statement, please let me know because I do not remember every single thing or word that I post here, but I don't think I have said that Obama hates America. So the time is running out on you, either you find it or admit you are wrong, as I have done when I admitted I called for Obama's impeachment.

1 Reply

@okie,

Quote:

Bingo, gotcha parados. Your reasoning to me in regard to Obama loving or hating America was that since I said Obama did not love this country as he should, you translated that into an allegation that I said he hated the country. If that were true, you would be the one claiming imposter cannot be independent, which might consist of being conservative on some issues and liberal on others or just apathetic or does not take a position on some.

You caught yourself okie. This isn't the first time you have made the "you must be a liberal because you aren't a conservative" argument.

So, you can make a leap without any evidence but if anyone else makes a leap WITH evidence then it makes them a liar? You argued that Obama doesn't love his country. Obama has a strong emotion about his country. Obama is a traitor. Obama is destroying the country. Since you can name no emotion that meets the criteria you laid out I can only assign the one that fits. Do I get to use the same standards as you or not okie?

If someone says they aren't something shouldn't it require similar evidence to someone that says they didn't say something?

1 Reply

@plainoldme,

plainoldme wrote:

Quote:
You certainly are not conservative, ci. I know, you claim to be independent

Independent has several meanings. Generally, at this time in the US, independent means a person who refuses to register as a party member.

How about that, I can actually agree with you on something!!!

Quote:

Glad that you think I am whacko! I was insulted back in February or MArch when you suggested I might have some conservative in me as conservative to me means a hypocrite, a person without ethics, a head-over-heels conformist.

I happen to think that everyone is a potential conservative, pom. Was it Churchill that said? : "If you're not a liberal at twenty you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at forty you have no brain."

I think becoming a conservative is mostly a matter of maturation, growing up, pom, so that you can think rationally instead of looking at the world from an emotional standpoint. I believe every person has the potential to grow up and mature to the point of being able to reason in a rational manner. I will cite an example. The liberal and emotional thing to do with a bum that wants a handout is to give him a fish. The result of that is however for that bum to continue to come back for more handouts repeatedly. If on the other hand you use reason to help the bum, you give him a fishing pole and teach him how to fish, and the end result is a more content and accomplished man, no longer a bum, and the entire society is improved. The two potential solutions to the bum problem is the difference between the liberal and the conservative approach.

I could cite many many examples to this, but it basically comes down to being realistic and practical when you attempt to solve problems. Another example is the issue of foreign policy. I believe the liberal point of view is unrealistic in regard to how human nature is, that they actually want to believe that war is not necessary at all, that we can talk our way out of virtually any threat, just by force of personality, but history should have taught all of us by now that it is just not realistic. Conservatives recognize the realities of human nature, that evil does and will exist, and that a strong national defense is the only real practical path to protecting our freedoms and nationhood. Of course we do not believe in abusing that power, but we need to have it nonetheless.

It is interesting you have this supposed belief that conservatives have no ethics. I see the liberals as having no ethics, that personal ethics mean nothing, it all hinges on whether you can tax the bejeebers out of the rest of us, so that you can give the bums a fish, so that you can feel good and "ethical." The conservatives want to use reason and practical solutions to solve problems, which includes tough love, to teach the man to fish, and expect good citizenship out of everyone in this country, and perhaps you interpret that as unethical? History has shown however that individual rights and responsibilities work better than socialism or communistic types of governing, so I think you just need to grow up and mature into the reality of how the world works, pom.

1 Reply

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

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