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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
talk72000
 
  0  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 07:35 pm
@okie,
Where were the National Guards in New Orleans with Hurricane Katerina? They were in Iraq not serving the home front as they were meant to.
okie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 07:43 pm
@talk72000,
Where was the mayor of New Orleans and the governor of Louisiana to enact an evacuation plan, until Bush called the governor and told her she better do something soon, like evacuate the city now? If he had not done that, how many more people would have perished, talk?
talk72000
 
  0  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 07:52 pm
@okie,
Where was GWB in a national disaster? He was strumming a guitar on a GOP fund raiser.
plainoldme
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 10:05 pm
@cicerone imposter,
The vice president of my union shop (as my Dad would call it) is an outspoken conservative who did not run for the office. I think people voted for her because she is so outspoken that she offends people who wished to teach her a lesson. There was no candidate for the VP and this woman ran for a much lower post.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 10:09 pm
@ican711nm,
I tried to explain the Federalists and the Anti-Federalists to you but your preconceptions got in the way.

Several here have tried to explain the Constitution and the Supreme Court to your but your prejudices got in the way.
mysteryman
 
  2  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 11:59 pm
@talk72000,
The National Guard has been deployed overseas in almost every conflict the Us has been involved in.

They were deployed in Korea during the Korean war...

http://www.ng.mil/default.aspx
Quote:
During the Korean War, 138,600 Army and 45,594 Air National Guardsmen were mobilized for active duty



http://www.ng.mil/About/default.aspx

Quote:
In World War I, which the U.S. entered in 1917, the National Guard made up 40% of the U.S. combat divisions in France; in World War II, National Guard units were among the first to deploy overseas and the first to fight.

Following World War II, National Guard aviation units, some of them dating back to World War I, became the Air National Guard, the nation's newest Reserve component. The Guard stood on the frontiers of freedom during the Cold War, sending soldiers and airmen to fight in Korea and to reinforce NATO during the Berlin crisis of 1961-1962. During the Vietnam war, almost 23,000 Army and Air Guardsmen were called up for a year of active duty; some 8,700 were deployed to Vietnam.

Quote:

Since that time, the National Guard has seen the nature of its Federal mission change, with more frequent call ups in response to crises in Haiti, Bosnia, Kosovo, and the skies over Iraq. Most recently, following the attacks of September 11, 2001, more than 50,000 Guardmembers were called up by both their States and the Federal government to provide security at home and combat terrorism abroad. In the largest and swiftest response to a domestic disaster in history, the Guard deployed more than 50,000 troops in support of the Gulf States following Hurricane Katrina in 2005.


So as you can see, the NG is a vital part of our military, and it is not a crime for a President to deploy them overseas, thats part of the job of the NG.

plainoldme
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2010 07:16 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter, dealing with okie's interpretation of Hitler has been difficult for all of us. Several weeks ago, I told him to read and listen to the scholars who have studied Hitler . . . and who read German . . .rather than listen to his own prejudices.

I respect your opinions and understand how much support everything you write has.


Far too many years ago to have an exact memory, I read a novel in which one of the characters (perhaps a time traveler?) went to a museum that offered an exhibit devoted to restoring the reputation of Hitler. Perhaps someone here on this thread would recognize the scene and can retrieve the title of the book for me.

Anyway, the novel offered a frightening view of the future. I have visited some conservative web sites that promote okie's accepted view that Hitler was a leftist. They frighten me. glenn beck's August speech frightens me in the same way. These are dangerous thoughts and I fear for this country.
talk72000
 
  0  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2010 12:30 pm
@mysteryman,
I can see the National Guards being deployed in a national emergency such as the world wars. I believe it was MacArthur who first suggested them as the vanguard as they were already trained as there would be a delay in training new recruits. The Iraq was not a war of choice for the Bush family to prop up their image. Using national resources for private gain whether in personal fortune or fame is not something I look on favorably.
ican711nm
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2010 12:41 pm
@plainoldme,
plainoldme wrote:
I tried to explain the Federalists and the Anti-Federalists to you but your preconceptions got in the way.

Several here have tried to explain the Constitution and the Supreme Court to your but your prejudices got in the way.

It is your preconceptions that get in your way. You did not explain why the actual words in the Constitution mean anything other than what its adopters and amenders said they mean.

It is the preconceptions of those "several here" that got in their way. They too did not explain how the actual words in the Constitution mean anything other than what its adopters and amenders said they mean.


The Constitution is as lawfully adopted and amended. It says what it means and means what it says. The only lawful way to change what it means is to amend it in lawful accord with Article V.

Your explanations and those of "several here" base your interpretations of what it means on the false opinions of those who were not authorized to change, legislate, or amend it. One of many blatantly unlawful judicial opinions was a Supreme Court Judge's assertion that he based his opinion on foreign opinions on what the Constitution should mean.

The changes you and anyone else want to make to the Constitution must be made by lawful amendments. Failure to obtain approval of an amendment by three-quarters of the state legislatures constitutes a failure to amend the Constitution.
talk72000
 
  0  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2010 12:44 pm
@ican711nm,
You show no understanding of the US Constitution.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  2  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2010 12:59 pm
@talk72000,
But what about them being sent to Bosnia, Haiti, and to Israel?
None of those are "national emergencies".

Again, your hatred of anything repubs do is blinding you to the truth.

BTW, MacArthur didnt order the NG to Europe in WW1, he was only a Lt then himself.

But I can see that your mind is made up and you dont want to be confused by the facts, so I will end this conversation now.
talk72000
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2010 01:01 pm
@mysteryman,
None were killed and were only used as a ruse to get Milosevic to surrender. There were no ground troops only bombs. A case of crying over spilt milk.
plainoldme
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2010 02:24 pm
@ican711nm,
But you base your posts on totally false opinions.

Furthermore, I have news for you. I paraphrased a neutral article.

Finally, your level of comprehension is wanting.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2010 02:26 pm
@ican711nm,
Quote:
The changes you and anyone else want to make to the Constitution must be made by lawful amendments. Failure to obtain approval of an amendment by three-quarters of the state legislatures constitutes a failure to amend the Constitution.


What changes do I want to make, mindreader?

Besides, I have a degree in political science, I have been a convention delegate and I worked for a legal paper and dealt with the law daily for four years. What is it you think you can tell me with any authority when you can not accurately quote anyone and you can not frame a proper and relevant question?
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2010 03:57 pm
@plainoldme,
Plainoldme,

Duh!

YOU WANT TO CHANGE THE CONSTITUTION AS AMENDED TO CONFORM TO YOUR PRECONCEIVED NOTIONS ABOUT WHAT THE CONSTITUTION SAYS AND MEANS.
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2010 04:14 pm
@talk72000,
talk72000 wrote:

Where was GWB in a national disaster? He was strumming a guitar on a GOP fund raiser.

He was calling the governor of Louisiana to tell her to wake up and do her job. Did you even read my previous post, wherein I pointed out to you:
"Where was the mayor of New Orleans and the governor of Louisiana to enact an evacuation plan, until Bush called the governor and told her she better do something soon, like evacuate the city now? If he had not done that, how many more people would have perished, talk?"
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2010 04:15 pm
@ican711nm,
AN OVERVIEW OF STATE VERSUS FEDERAL POWER
Quote:
Federalist paper number 47.
http://thomas.loc.gov/home/histdox/fedpapers.html
The Alleged Danger From the Powers of the Union to the State Governments Considered
For the Independent Journal.

Author: James Madison

To the People of the State of New York:

HAVING shown that no one of the powers transferred to the federal government is unnecessary or improper, the next question to be considered is, whether the whole mass of them will be dangerous to the portion of authority left in the several States. The adversaries to the plan of the convention, instead of considering in the first place what degree of power was absolutely necessary for the purposes of the federal government, have exhausted themselves in a secondary inquiry into the possible consequences of the proposed degree of power to the governments of the particular States. But if the Union, as has been shown, be essential to the security of the people of America against foreign danger; if it be essential to their security against contentions and wars among the different States; if it be essential to guard them against those violent and oppressive factions which embitter the blessings of liberty, and against those military establishments which must gradually poison its very fountain; if, in a word, the Union be essential to the happiness of the people of America, is it not preposterous, to urge as an objection to a government, without which the objects of the Union cannot be attained, that such a government may derogate from the importance of the governments of the individual States? Was, then, the American Revolution effected, was the American Confederacy formed, was the precious blood of thousands spilt, and the hard-earned substance of millions lavished, not that the people of America should enjoy peace, liberty, and safety, but that the government of the individual States, that particular municipal establishments, might enjoy a certain extent of power, and be arrayed with certain dignities and attributes of sovereignty? We have heard of the impious doctrine in the Old World, that the people were made for kings, not kings for the people. Is the same doctrine to be revived in the New, in another shape that the solid happiness of the people is to be sacrificed to the views of political institutions of a different form? It is too early for politicians to presume on our forgetting that the public good, the real welfare of the great body of the people, is the supreme object to be pursued; and that no form of government whatever has any other value than as it may be fitted for the attainment of this object. Were the plan of the convention adverse to the public happiness, my voice would be, Reject the plan. Were the Union itself inconsistent with the public happiness, it would be, Abolish the Union. In like manner, as far as the sovereignty of the States cannot be reconciled to the happiness of the people, the voice of every good citizen must be,

Let the former be sacrificed to the latter. How far the sacrifice is necessary, has been shown. How far the unsacrificed residue will be endangered, is the question before us. Several important considerations have been touched in the course of these papers, which discountenance the supposition that the operation of the federal government will by degrees prove fatal to the State governments. The more I revolve the subject, the more fully I am persuaded that the balance is much more likely to be disturbed by the preponderancy of the last than of the first scale. We have seen, in all the examples of ancient and modern confederacies, the strongest tendency continually betraying itself in the members, to despoil the general government of its authorities, with a very ineffectual capacity in the latter to defend itself against the encroachments. Although, in most of these examples, the system has been so dissimilar from that under consideration as greatly to weaken any inference concerning the latter from the fate of the former, yet, as the States will retain, under the proposed Constitution, a very extensive portion of active sovereignty, the inference ought not to be wholly disregarded. In the Achaean league it is probable that the federal head had a degree and species of power, which gave it a considerable likeness to the government framed by the convention. The Lycian Confederacy, as far as its principles and form are transmitted, must have borne a still greater analogy to it. Yet history does not inform us that either of them ever degenerated, or tended to degenerate, into one consolidated government. On the contrary, we know that the ruin of one of them proceeded from the incapacity of the federal authority to prevent the dissensions, and finally the disunion, of the subordinate authorities. These cases are the more worthy of our attention, as the external causes by which the component parts were pressed together were much more numerous and powerful than in our case; and consequently less powerful ligaments within would be sufficient to bind the members to the head, and to each other. In the feudal system, we have seen a similar propensity exemplified. Notwithstanding the want of proper sympathy in every instance between the local sovereigns and the people, and the sympathy in some instances between the general sovereign and the latter, it usually happened that the local sovereigns prevailed in the rivalship for encroachments.

Had no external dangers enforced internal harmony and subordination, and particularly, had the local sovereigns possessed the affections of the people, the great kingdoms in Europe would at this time consist of as many independent princes as there were formerly feudatory barons. The State government will have the advantage of the Federal government, whether we compare them in respect to the immediate dependence of the one on the other; to the weight of personal influence which each side will possess; to the powers respectively vested in them; to the predilection and probable support of the people; to the disposition and faculty of resisting and frustrating the measures of each other. The State governments may be regarded as constituent and essential parts of the federal government; whilst the latter is nowise essential to the operation or organization of the former. Without the intervention of the State legislatures, the President of the United States cannot be elected at all. They must in all cases have a great share in his appointment, and will, perhaps, in most cases, of themselves determine it. The Senate will be elected absolutely and exclusively by the State legislatures. Even the House of Representatives, though drawn immediately from the people, will be chosen very much under the influence of that class of men, whose influence over the people obtains for themselves an election into the State legislatures. Thus, each of the principal branches of the federal government will owe its existence more or less to the favor of the State governments, and must consequently feel a dependence, which is much more likely to beget a disposition too obsequious than too overbearing towards them. On the other side, the component parts of the State governments will in no instance be indebted for their appointment to the direct agency of the federal government, and very little, if at all, to the local influence of its members. The number of individuals employed under the Constitution of the United States will be much smaller than the number employed under the particular States.

There will consequently be less of personal influence on the side of the former than of the latter. The members of the legislative, executive, and judiciary departments of thirteen and more States, the justices of peace, officers of militia, ministerial officers of justice, with all the county, corporation, and town officers, for three millions and more of people, intermixed, and having particular acquaintance with every class and circle of people, must exceed, beyond all proportion, both in number and influence, those of every description who will be employed in the administration of the federal system. Compare the members of the three great departments of the thirteen States, excluding from the judiciary department the justices of peace, with the members of the corresponding departments of the single government of the Union; compare the militia officers of three millions of people with the military and marine officers of any establishment which is within the compass of probability, or, I may add, of possibility, and in this view alone, we may pronounce the advantage of the States to be decisive. If the federal government is to have collectors of revenue, the State governments will have theirs also. And as those of the former will be principally on the seacoast, and not very numerous, whilst those of the latter will be spread over the face of the country, and will be very numerous, the advantage in this view also lies on the same side.

It is true, that the Confederacy is to possess, and may exercise, the power of collecting internal as well as external taxes throughout the States; but it is probable that this power will not be resorted to, except for supplemental purposes of revenue; that an option will then be given to the States to supply their quotas by previous collections of their own; and that the eventual collection, under the immediate authority of the Union, will generally be made by the officers, and according to the rules, appointed by the several States. Indeed it is extremely probable, that in other instances, particularly in the organization of the judicial power, the officers of the States will be clothed with the correspondent authority of the Union.

Should it happen, however, that separate collectors of internal revenue should be appointed under the federal government, the influence of the whole number would not bear a comparison with that of the multitude of State officers in the opposite scale.

Within every district to which a federal collector would be allotted, there would not be less than thirty or forty, or even more, officers of different descriptions, and many of them persons of character and weight, whose influence would lie on the side of the State. The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. The operations of the federal government will be most extensive and important in times of war and danger; those of the State governments, in times of peace and security. As the former periods will probably bear a small proportion to the latter, the State governments will here enjoy another advantage over the federal government. The more adequate, indeed, the federal powers may be rendered to the national defense, the less frequent will be those scenes of danger which might favor their ascendancy over the governments of the particular States. If the new Constitution be examined with accuracy and candor, it will be found that the change which it proposes consists much less in the addition of NEW POWERS to the Union, than in the invigoration of its ORIGINAL POWERS. The regulation of commerce, it is true, is a new power; but that seems to be an addition which few oppose, and from which no apprehensions are entertained. The powers relating to war and peace, armies and fleets, treaties and finance, with the other more considerable powers, are all vested in the existing Congress by the articles of Confederation. The proposed change does not enlarge these powers; it only substitutes a more effectual mode of administering them. The change relating to taxation may be regarded as the most important; and yet the present Congress have as complete authority to REQUIRE of the States indefinite supplies of money for the common defense and general welfare, as the future Congress will have to require them of individual citizens; and the latter will be no more bound than the States themselves have been, to pay the quotas respectively taxed on them. Had the States complied punctually with the articles of Confederation, or could their compliance have been enforced by as peaceable means as may be used with success towards single persons, our past experience is very far from countenancing an opinion, that the State governments would have lost their constitutional powers, and have gradually undergone an entire consolidation. To maintain that such an event would have ensued, would be to say at once, that the existence of the State governments is incompatible with any system whatever that accomplishes the essential purposes of the Union.

PUBLIUS.


okie
 
  0  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2010 04:54 pm
@plainoldme,
plainoldme wrote:

Walter, dealing with okie's interpretation of Hitler has been difficult for all of us. Several weeks ago, I told him to read and listen to the scholars who have studied Hitler . . . and who read German . . .rather than listen to his own prejudices.

Here is a scholar that studied Hitler in pretty good detail and wrote a pretty good summary of the man.
http://jonjayray.tripod.com/hitler.html
"Hitler Was a Socialist"
John J. Ray (M.A.; Ph.D.) http://jonjayray.tripod.com/main.html

I picked out what I consider to be a pretty good section from the above linked article; It would do you well, pom, if you would read the entire article. I think it could be very educational to you if you would allow it to be.

"But the most spectacular aspect of Nazism was surely its antisemitism. And that had a grounding in Marx himself. The following passage is from Marx but it could just as well have been from Hitler:
"Let us consider the actual, worldly Jew -- not the Sabbath Jew, as Bauer does, but the everyday Jew. Let us not look for the secret of the Jew in his religion, but let us look for the secret of his religion in the real Jew. What is the secular basis of Judaism? Practical need, self-interest. What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money. Very well then! Emancipation from huckstering and money, consequently from practical, real Jewry, would be the self-emancipation of our time.... We recognize in Jewry, therefore, a general present-time-oriented anti-social element, an element which through historical development -- to which in this harmful respect the Jews have zealously contributed -- has been brought to its present high level, at which it must necessarily dissolve itself. In the final analysis, the emancipation of the Jews is the emancipation of mankind from Jewry".
Note that Marx wanted to "emancipate" (free) mankind from Jewry ("Judentum" in Marx's original German), just as Hitler did and that the title of Marx's essay in German was "Zur Judenfrage", which -- while not necessarily derogatory in itself -- is nonetheless exactly the same expression ("Jewish question") that Hitler used in his famous phrase "Endloesung der Judenfrage" ("Final solution of the Jewish question"). And when Marx speaks of the end of Jewry by saying that Jewish identity must necessarily "dissolve" itself, the word he uses in German is "aufloesen", which is a close relative of Hitler's word "Endloesung" ("final solution"). So all the most condemned features of Nazism can be traced back to Marx and Engels, right down to the language used. The thinking of Hitler, Marx and Engels differed mainly in emphasis rather than in content. All three were second-rate German intellectuals of their times. Anybody who doubts that practically all Hitler's ideas were also to be found in Marx & Engels should spend a little time reading the quotations from Marx & Engels archived here."


Another good article titled "Hitler was a Leftist" in the following link:
http://constitutionalistnc.tripod.com/hitler-leftist/

Also a quote from the above:
"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions." --Adolf Hitler

Seriously, to all of you guys, use common sense, is that something that a conservative politician on the right would say? Not in a million years, folks. If even an okie can figure this out, maybe someday the elitist revisionist historians will as well? I have pretty much made what I would consider not only a good opening argument but also a very sound closing argument in what looks to me to be an open shut case that Hitler was no doubt a leftist. I am growing tired of making the same old points of logic over and over and over, and if the libs here simply cannot grasp simple and compelling concepts, I see little profit in continuing to try to convince them with more logic. They simply will have none of that, so whats the use?
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2010 04:59 pm
@okie,
Quote:

Here is a scholar that studied Hitler in pretty good detail and wrote a pretty good summary of the man.


Sorry, but it's a joke to refer to this idiot as a 'scholar.' He wouldn't pass muster in any serious History department by forwarding such dreck.

You ought to be able to point to a published Academician for things like this, Okie - not some quack with a Tripod account straight out of 2001.

Cycloptichorn
okie
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2010 05:11 pm
@ican711nm,
ican, I've had an interesting thought this afternoon. As I have watched you try to convince others about what the constitution actually says, according to common sense reading of it, I have also tried to convince liberals here that Hitler was a socialist and a leftist, just by using simple common sense reasoning as applied to what he said and what he did, and also what the Nazi Party said and did.

With that said, it seems there is a hard nut to crack in simply using logic as applied to things, there are preconceived notions as perpetrated perhaps by intelligentsia or academica, which have been predominated by liberal thought and revisionist history. It seems to me that liberals are so brainwashed into a distinct thought pattern of what they are supposed to think and believe about things. In the case of the constitution, liberal academia has sold the idea that it is a living breathing document that can be massaged for this modern world, because it was written in an outdated and outmoded agricultural society. In the case of Hitler, academia has sold the idea that he was an extreme rightee and we are all supposed to accept that, damn the historical evidence that looms so large. They also ignore the fact that we now have more experience and current understanding of what left and right mean and what they stand for.

In conclusion many seem totally incapable of looking at the original constitutional document and writings in black and white, or simply look at the facts of history, and then apply simple logic to those things.
 

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